Botlane in 2 pictures

D357R0Y3R·Aug 29, 2018·64 votes·17,662 views

https://i.gyazo.com/088a75e304daf6413d04899d097a6515.png https://i.gyazo.com/07feafde28629a5e1de2f66beb9f1082.png

Thank you Meddler for the balance that you bring to the game Your balance posts definitly help, and they help even more when they state that Jhin doesn't need nerfs.

PS: green number is win rate dark green number is win rate on mains blue number is pick rate red number is ban rate

as it stands now, those champions have the triple of an adc's pick rate, while having a win rate that got multiple champions nerfed while having 10% pick rate (just so you remember)

86 Comments

Warlord RhinarkAug 29, 201846 votes

Can we remove Stormrazor already?

crispy66Aug 29, 20189 votes

sure, revert crit item changes first

Packun FlowerAug 29, 201811 votes

They already did that a few patches ago.

crispy66Aug 29, 20189 votes

infinity edge doesn't look reverted

AirKingNeoAug 30, 20184 votes

Zeal items are still 200 gold up IE still has a shit build path

BeatzBoyFTWAug 30, 20181 votes

Define your version of "reverted"...

inFamous ZionAug 29, 201826 votes

As someone that is playing currently on a account that is Diamond 2 vs high Diamond and Master/Challenger players on EUNE, i can confirm that legit every game Jhin and Kaisa are played. No lie, legit every game.

TheCodeisCupCakeAug 29, 20184 votes

And this fucker from time to time Draven

BLIGHTBRINGERAug 29, 201822 votes

With the kit that Kai'Sa has, I don't think she will ever truly be a bad marksman.

She has:

Mixed Damage (Hard to build against her).
Better Lane Trading Potential + Decent Burst (Q).
Poke + Sniping potential (W).
Pretty large Attack Speed Steroid + Invisibility (E).
Long Dash + Massive Shield (R).
All abilities scale with both AD and AP (Flexible in item choices).

Jhin is only good because of his Passive interaction with Hail of Blades and Items like Stormrazor. Once those are adjusted/nerfed he will be relatively weak as he was before this playstyle was discovered.

D357R0Y3RAug 29, 201812 votes

everyone tells me it's not jhin's fault

frankly nobody cares if it is or not I just want jhin to be weaker you can remove hail of blade if you want

in the end he needs a nerf, directly or indirectly it's still a nerf that is requiered just like when they nerfed DFT ad ratio for Jhin in season 7.

ValiantKillerAug 29, 20185 votes

{quoted}

everyone tells me it's not jhin's fault

frankly nobody cares if it is or not I just want jhin to be weaker you can remove hail of blade if you want

in the end he needs a nerf, directly or indirectly it's still a nerf that is requiered just like when they nerfed DFT ad ratio for Jhin in season 7.

Wait people say it not jhin fault ? Then was it MonkeyKing fault to be gutted to ground cause stupid items and runes ?

Noor SakataAug 29, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Wait people say it not jhin fault ? Then was it fault to be gutted to ground cause stupid items and runes ?

Yeah ? I say it's both not Jhin's nor Wukong's fault to get nerfed

ValiantKillerAug 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Noor Sakata,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHG9rmng,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-29T19:03:59.074+0000)

Yeah ? I say it's both not Jhin's nor Wukong's fault to get nerfed

Then why no nerfs to jhin and only wukong get nerfs?

Noor SakataAug 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Then why no nerfs to jhin and only wukong get nerfs?

Maybe because Jhin is hella popular and his skins are still selling while Wukong skin was just bad and never got sold ? " believe me this actually happens "

players complained about Wukong 1 shooting from stealth , I'm a wukong player myself and I know Wukong should have never got nerfed , more like needs a rework , because if he can't 1 shoot , he is useless anyway , he still didn't do anything besides 1 shooting when people complained about him and as for Jhin , I don't want him to get gutted either , I still prefer his meta over metas

ValiantKillerAug 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Noor Sakata,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHG9rmng,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-30T03:32:23.790+0000)

Maybe because Jhin is hella popular and his skins are still selling while Wukong skin was just bad and never got sold ? " believe me this actually happens "

players complained about Wukong 1 shooting from stealth , I'm a wukong player myself and I know Wukong should have never got nerfed , more like needs a rework , because if he can't 1 shoot , he is useless anyway , he still didn't do anything besides 1 shooting when people complained about him and as for Jhin , I don't want him to get gutted either , I still prefer his meta over metas

You know what is more fun for me ? When people say wukong should be nerfed cause he is binary champion and his winrate shouldn't be above 50%. I'm like why every adc in this stupid game allowed to have more than 50%winrate then ? Legit all adc are binary champions that AA only and don't tell me cause they kitting which make them non binray cause any champion in this game can kited other skills as welll.

TeCoolMageAug 30, 20181 votes

agreed, the inherent AD-Crit-AS -> AA synergy is just too much so the entire rest of the kit is just a collection of bells and whistles

ValiantKillerAug 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

agreed, the inherent AD-Crit-AS -> AA synergy is just too much so the entire rest of the kit is just a collection of bells and whistles

The same goes for wukong passive make no difference cause rest of his kit so powerful

TeCoolMageAug 30, 20181 votes

Yeah it’d be nice if wukong had a better passive, (And for ADCs to do more than right click) it’d make for a more interesting buff than AS and base stats

ValiantKillerAug 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah it’d be nice if wukong had a better passive, (And for ADCs to do more than right click) it’d make for a more interesting buff than AS and base stats

Right now and by the look of riot balance team, sadly i think not.

Vlada CutAug 29, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHG9rmng,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-08-29T13:24:47.458+0000)

With the kit that Kai'Sa has, I don't think she will ever truly be a bad marksman.

She has:

Mixed Damage (Hard to build against her).

Better Lane Trading Potential + Decent Burst (Q).

Poke + Sniping potential (W).

Pretty large Attack Speed Steroid + Invisibility (E).

Long Dash + Massive Shield (R).

All abilities scale with both AD and AP (Flexible in item choices).

Jhin is only good because of his Passive interaction with Hail of Blades and Items like Stormrazor. Once those are adjusted/nerfed he will be relatively weak as he was before this playstyle was discovered.

Kai'Sa is a whole new level of Camille adaptations. We can see the designer of both surely evolved(kai'sa oun intended). :V

Frosted TipsAug 29, 20187 votes

Honestly I don't get why Kai'Sa has a higher ban rate than Jhin. Jhin is much more useful even if he doesn't get ahead. Jhin also plays so far back and killing him is near impossible if 1 person peels for him at least Kai'Sa has to be right up next to you and offers no utility for the team.

DeconstructionAug 30, 20181 votes

Because kai'sa is in general so much more versatile.

Frosted TipsAug 30, 20182 votes

But how Kai'sa only adds magic damage to your team as her versatility while Jhin can be the carry or be supportive has more catch potential. He literally has 3 abilities that are useful even if he isn't doing well. While Kai'Sa does nothing if she isn't doing well.

Crimson ZeppelinAug 29, 20187 votes

Honestly. Jhin is so unique that there is a set population of mains that will never abandon him in any patch.

It is nearly a religion lol

The NidjaAug 29, 20185 votes

Four People Main Jhin

BestPudgeNAAug 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uHG9rmng,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-08-29T20:36:34.209+0000)

Honestly. Jhin is so unique that there is a set population of mains that will never abandon him in any patch.

It is nearly a religion lol

People never pick this champ when he is weak. Almost all ADCs are so similar that whatever strong gets picked and weak doesn't. Draven and Vayne are really the only 2 ADCs that have a lot of "mains" and even then they only keep the play rates at like 4-5%

Horse GrenadesAug 30, 20183 votes

This is not true. I will always play him. His kit is fun af

MizayaAug 29, 20186 votes

The reason KaiSa is a problem is that literally the only thing her kit lacks is long ranged autos and CC, she has everything else that a marksman could possibly have--poke, burst damage, sustained damage, mixed damage, self-peel, mobility, waveclear... and a SHIELD on top of it all. After playing ADCs for years I just feel like I'm not making use of everything she has, because I'm just not used to having all of that on one champion.

Hexs FortuneAug 29, 20184 votes

Kai'sa originally shipped with 500 range

OtterlyLostAug 29, 20183 votes

Kaisa must literally only be at high elo. I almost never see her. That said, you can blame 8.11 for ruining a decent chunk of the marksmen class. Between the changes to IE, Stormrazor being awful for ADCs(seriously, why doesn't the crit just charge up with AAs; why would that be so insanely broken?), to the absolute gutting of ER with no compensation buffs to its primary users(Xayah, looking at you), marksmen itemization is terrible right now

D357R0Y3RAug 29, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Kaisa must literally only be at high elo. I almost never see her.

So plat+ is high elo now? lmao

That said, you can blame 8.11 for ruining a decent chunk of the marksmen class.

I blame the balance team for leaving two oppressive picks broken. I fucking despise how Meddler thinks he's doing a good job by writing those gameplay post when his posts absolutly ignores all the broken champions of the moment.

But it's ok, I know how the boards love Jhin so much

ruining a decent chunk of the marksmen class.

Sure thing friend, we're back to 100% of botlane picks being adc but the marsksmen class got chunked right? it's as if some champions are weak because they can't compet with broken adcs like kai'sa and Jhin.

we just have to think for two second, if nothing else than adcs is played botlane, but some adcs have the triple of others's pick rate, who's fault is that? the class? or this single champion?

jesus **

OtterlyLostAug 29, 20182 votes

I wonder what Ezreals pick rate is. It's not like it's not always absurdly high.

And we're back to ADCs bot lane because they finally fixed them enough to be more than just a really big canon minion pre 30 minutes; people who originally played bot and who enjoyed ADCs are obviously going to go back to ADCs. For some people(me) it's the only class they want to play and they enjoy; if they opened up other lanes for marksmen, the people who play marksmen would happily play them there. As it stands, none of the off meta bot lane picks got nerfed or changed; if they arent being played bot, that's on the top and mid players who liked those champions being there. With how quick marksmen restabilzed botlane, however, I'm inclined to believe that they are the picks that people actually want to play.

Furthermore, I like how you automatically jump in to disagree when I literally only said things that I know you've previously agreed with. The level of hypocrisy from you is astounding. You agreed that stormrazor is a terrible item, that the rework to ER was godawful, and that ADC itemization is shit.

D357R0Y3RAug 29, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I wonder what Ezreals pick rate is. It's not like it's not always absurdly high.

No it's not always high, ezreal was dogshit before klepto and had around 2% pick rate

And we're back to ADCs bot lane because they finally fixed them enough to be more than just a really big canon minion pre 30 minutes; people who originally played bot and who enjoyed ADCs are obviously going to go back to ADCs.

Not at all, pro players play the best

Bwipo who replaced rekkles is only playing non adc botlaners http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=fncbwipo this is his opgg and he has 13% win rate on botlane

For some people(me) it's the only class they want to play and they enjoy;

So?

if they opened up other lanes for marksmen, the people who play marksmen would happily play them there. As it stands, none of the off meta bot lane picks got nerfed or changed; if they arent being played bot, that's on the top and mid players who liked those champions being there. With how quick marksmen restabilzed botlane, however, I'm inclined to believe that they are the picks that people actually want to play.

why the fuck do i care, all of your talk in unrelated to the power of marksmen

FACT STANDS THAT RIGHT NOW WE'RE BACK TO 100% ADC BOTLANE even in pro and pro players play the best, and they only play adc why the fuck do you think that rekkles is back now in pro? because he only knows how to play adcs and is a god at doing it, he has 70% win rate in solo queue unlike before, and since they're the best now he replaced bwipo who has 13% win rate in soloq in botlane

Furthermore, I like how you automatically jump in to disagree when I literally only said things that I know you've previously agreed with. The level of hypocrisy from you is astounding. You agreed that stormrazor is a terrible item, that the rework to ER was godawful, and that ADC itemization is shit.

because I want to nerf kai'sa and jhin, and you your post says "they're strong because everyone else got ruined" which is false af absolutely false.

OtterlyLostAug 29, 20182 votes

No I believe you said that they are strong because everyone is weak; you said it right here:

{quoted}

it's as if some champions are weak because they can't compet with broken adcs like kai'sa and Jhin.

What my post says is they're two marksmen that can best utilize shitty itemization options. Not that they are strong because others are weak.

And I kind of half read the rest of your post because you actually tried to convince me that Ezreal's pick rate has ever been low, just proving you have no idea what's going on.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ezreal

That popularity chart almost never dips below 10%. The bastard is always prevalent even when he is "dog shit." Even before kelpto, he still rose up like a clock roach as an early game cheese jungler. Or dont you remember jungle ezreal?

You said something about pro play which is so relevant to soloqueue, yes, I know. sarcasm

D357R0Y3RAug 29, 20184 votes

{quoted}

No I believe you said that they are strong because everyone is weak; you said it right here:

No, I said they're weak if they can't compet with broken champions broken champions need nerfs, period you don't make everyone broken or else other roles suffer from a huge imbalance between roles

What my post says is they're two marksmen that can best utilize shitty itemization options

what the fuck man EVEN TRISTANA IS PLAYED IN PRO even rekkles the best adc EU spams sivir in solo queue and has 100% win rate on her

how is that those two marskmen can use a shitty itemization when other adcs can do fine if they don't play against those two broken champions?

And I kind of half read the rest of your post because you actually tried to convince me that Ezreal's pick rate has ever been low, just proving you have no idea what's going on.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ezreal

acknowledging that leagueofgraph has legit stats (mordekaiser 5% pick rate and 50% ban rate in 2015? hahaha) go to plat+ instead of gold+, go to adc only role you will see that it drops to 5% or 4%

so yea i was right

You said something about pro play which is so relevant to soloqueue, yes, I know. sarcasm

I said we don't balance around pro play I didn't say it's irrelevant, wanna know why? Pro play is good to know which pick is the best if everyone plays at their best, for instance it's good to know that adcs are the best option right now if you're not dogshit. Why wouldn't it be the case in solo queue when the stats are the same?

answer to that

OtterlyLostAug 29, 20182 votes

Solo queue and Pro play are never comparable so ever referencing pro play in relation to solo queue is asinine and pointless. As I have said multiple times and will continue to say until my fingers fall off and I'm blue in the face, pro play has a team of five people who live together, eat together, train together, and communicate together in game. Just the communication and organization of the team means that champions that are usually hot garbage in soloqueue(Ryze, Azir, Galio, Shen, just to name a few) are suddenly amazing, which is a consistent problem.

Solo queue slaps five monkeys together and let's them lose. They dont know each other, they arent in call, they haven't trained together; its flatly better to pick things that can self care and dont require a shitton of teamwork to actually function.

ADC inherently will always do better in an organized setting than in a soloqueue one. Some ADCs even have such game impacting utility that they are favorites in proplay, even when they're weaker in soloqueue(varus, ashe, sivir). As a class, its intensely different and better to be able to communicate directly your cooldowns, your position, if you need help to your support and tank than to only be able to ping desperately and hope they're paying attention.

And bringing up Rekkles doing well on Tristana is stupid; he practically OTP her, shes his favorite ADC, of course hes doing well on her. Shes got a terrible overall winrate but mains are doing fine with her, as they should be since they put in the work and effort to learn her.

AlzonAug 29, 20183 votes

It’s hilarious how no one remembers the meta not too long ago when one out of three games saw four marksmen on one team, with at least two every game. Of course that was back when lane sustain from Bloodlust was ridiculously high and crit items were 100% busted, but still.

Every class has its time to shine, which encourages players to try new things. Even if you decide you don’t like the changes after trying it, you’ve at least learned what it’s like from the other side and can play against it more intelligently.

Fízz v2Aug 29, 20182 votes

these champs arent a problem in low elo so they get fixed very slowly xd

YomiInThe6Aug 30, 20181 votes

Can confirm that I haven't seen a jhin or kai'sa in the last 5 days so I see that as they are in a good state.

Btw random question whats the best support for a fizz when he goes bottom?

D357R0Y3RAug 30, 20181 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/f7bd22967be9bd1ee4f92b3e13d2ebf3.png

why am i able to see them in your match history

YomiInThe6Aug 31, 20181 votes

aww shoot I forgot too add against god damn EXPOSED, plus if you took a look at the games the other adc tended to do better. And the jhins I play with are pretty much 1 trick him so I still see balance.

stone the blacksAug 29, 20182 votes

u 4got item 3095

Noor SakataAug 29, 20182 votes

And as you see the number of banrate decides which is more unfun to play against Personally imo I'd rather playing against 5 Jhins more than playing against a Kai'Sa , however , Jhin's playrate has always been high due to the love he has from his mains and his popularity , even when he was weak and had around 47-48% winrate , he always had a high pickrate. as for nerfs , you know it's items fault + a rune

SzGamer227Aug 29, 20182 votes

What is your source for this? The three I always check (leagueofgraphs.com, op.gg, and champion.gg) all have Jhin and Kai'Sa at 50-51.5% WR. Absurdly high pick rate? Sure, but that's because they're the most fun champions among a very narrow roster that has only gotten narrower since the crit itemization rework. MF and Jinx are dominating the win rate scene.

D357R0Y3RAug 29, 20183 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/home/

SzGamer227Aug 29, 20182 votes

I'll add that to the list of sources I check when I'm looking for trends. Thanks!

50CaliberHecateAug 29, 20182 votes

Kai'sa is my main so no complaints <.< Sorry not sorry. I like her where she is. The only reason she's so well also is because she's hybrid with assassin. She's SUPPOSE to do the damage she does.

SkorchAug 30, 20182 votes

Ill be honest. Those pickrates are pretty crazy. But the winrate isnt as high i thought it was gonna be from the horror stories ive heard

LittleFaAug 30, 20182 votes

The problem is not that the jhin and kaisa(thanks to her ap scaling) are busted,that's because they are FEW OF THE ONLY the adc capable of avoiding the problem made by this new shitty itemisation (Miss fortune and lucian too,adding too miss fortune is wayyy better but she is always banned) and as far as the other adc,it's not that they are weak,the items are really garbage honestly! The crits iteam either need to be reverted back or reworked AGAIN PROPERLY something i feel like riot does not want to do instead of nerfing these 2 Maybe the price of stormrazor could be increased say like 3200 or 3300 (or even remove the items) and the price of the other crits items decreased a little more! From that we could maybe see where the other adc stands!

D357R0Y3RAug 30, 20181 votes

If adcs can play the game when those two are not played (at least if they can't, i wonder why people like ruler or rekkles can) but they can't when those two are played i don't see an issue with itemization, i see an issue with broken champions