Removing ADCs would be a terrible idea (HOLD YOUR DOWNVOTE)

Marshbouy·Dec 12, 2016·15 votes·1,175 views

Not only would it alienate a large part of the player base, but it would cause enormous balance problems that would years to work out. All of the balance in the game is based around one real constant, ADCs. (in theory and in practice when game balance is good) Assassins and mages counter ADCs Tanks counter assassins and mages Adcs counter tanks

You can argue back and forth about if the state of ADCs are good (IMO probably not) and you can argue back and forth about if they are healthy for the game, but it is undeniable that straight out removing them from the game (and to a lesser extent making them picked less often) would result in balance issues that made the worst parts of season 6 look like fun.

45 Comments

Big LincolnDec 12, 201610 votes

I don't want ADCs removed, I want them to not be mandatory and I want the game to not revolve entirely around them

I'm tired of people defending this horrible precedent set by Riot when it's true for exactly 0 other games in this genre

doublelift fgDec 12, 20162 votes

you know a moba that doesn't revolve around carries?

Big LincolnDec 12, 20164 votes

nice strawman my dude

yeah, I know several games where ranged physical damage carries aren't the end-all "pick this or lose"

I've yet to actually see an argument that the game wouldn't be more diverse if comps that centered around melee carries or APCs were made to be competitive. that requires way more work to the game than just "nerf/rework ADCs" though, and I don't even think that's the right solution (maybe rethinking ADCs is necessary, though); tanks need changes just as badly as ADCs, in my opinion

would it be so bad to see comps that are propped up to make Darius the team carry, though? Or a setup that lets Yi shine? i think not.

AhristocatsDec 12, 20161 votes

he didn't say ranged physical damage carries, he said carries

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

he's using all carries when I referred to ADCs specifically

doublelift fgDec 12, 20161 votes

I thought you wanted a game where a team would revolve around nothing, i'm ok with a team around darius/yi

Big LincolnDec 12, 20161 votes

should i start calling them marksman so it's less confusing what im talking about

A DoorknobDec 12, 20161 votes

Heroes of the storm.

BrawlicSnakeDec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uErW4NUE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-12T22:15:29.374+0000)

I don't want ADCs removed, I want them to not be mandatory and I want the game to not revolve entirely around them

I'm tired of people defending this horrible precedent set by Riot when it's true for exactly 0 other games in this genre

Umm... What?! Yes, they are the carry, but by no means does it revolve around them. If you have a bad ADC but a well balanced team otherwise, you can make it just fine.

doublelift fgDec 12, 201610 votes

Not every ADC main wants the game to be ADC versus ADC

there are champions that can replace ADC damage wise without bringing the sieging power of ADC that can be brought by other champions like mages or Jayce

Currently it's impossible, and without doing theories just launch a game and pick anyone bot lane against an adc+sup to try.

When you think about it, playing against someone else than an ADC as an ADC main would be really fun. I play this game since 6 years now, i know almost every match ups, when i'm vayne against jhin i know i should do this and this and this but what happens if i'm any ADC versus jax bot lane? (Tribute to Chaox, i wish he played jax bot again) i literally don't know what i should do, i can try to think about it but while i'm in game it's challenging

THIS IS WHAT I WANT, CHALLENGES AND NEW THINGS so yeah, i'm down to make picks viable bot lane,** but i'm not ok with removing ADC**

IcyPepperDec 13, 20161 votes

You're my favorite kind of ADC player <3

DestructoDaveDec 12, 20165 votes

You know, outside of like 3 overtuned ADCs, most of them are pretty low impact for the entire game besides taking objectives. Most of them die to just about any other champion in the game getting on them; even supports sometimes.

I mean seriously, how many mouth breathers pop R on Olaf and just run after like a Jhin or Ashe and just furiously right click on them without a care in the world for actually kiting or clicking in front? Just run at them aarrrrgggh chopping away and kill them?

But then that one overtuned Vayne kills them and they say the entire game is biased about ADCs. When most ADCs are stuck being a support's bitch for 20 minutes, and then spend the rest of the game forced into glass cannon builds to be relevant, forced to need peel and position great because any top laner/tank/assassin/mage/solo Q mage support can probably solo them out no matter how many items they got or how fed they are. You might leave lane 5-0 on say, Ashe, and that mid-lane ahri can roll up and miss every skillshot and probably still kill you with foxfire and her ult alone.

Hauling AsheDec 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}When most ADCs are stuck being a support's bitch for 20 minutes, and then spend the rest of the game forced into glass cannon builds to be relevant, forced to need peel and position great because any top laner/tank/assassin/mage/solo Q mage support can probably solo them out no matter how many items they got or how fed they are. You might leave lane 5-0 on say, Ashe, and that mid-lane ahri can roll up and miss every skillshot and probably still kill you with foxfire and her ult alone.

Preach. Ashe item 3070

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRDec 12, 20164 votes

I don't think anyone wants them to be removed entirely. We just want them to be a thing that you can have, if it suits the style you want to play, rather than something that literally every team has to have if it's to perform well at a professional level. I wanna see a pro game where a team with no ADC can at least hold their own, if not necessarily win. I want no ADC teams to be a legitimate composition that actually sees the light of competitive play.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 12, 20161 votes

This would be a huge mistake

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRDec 13, 20162 votes

Care to elaborate?

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 13, 20161 votes

every champion has 1 or 2 ideal positions and every position has specific champion pool with a specific theme to it. it isn't just marksmen bot lane. top lane is a lane of duelist champions, fighters and tanks. mid lane is the lane of mages and assassins, high burst carries. etc.

imagine if you said ok you know what, we're going to make fighters and tanks not the dominant force of top lane. we'll make it just as viable to go mages or adcs in top. can you imagine how pissed off top laners would be? they already hate Quinn. that's the sort of thing you're proposing for bot lane.

this game is built on a meta of specific champion pools in specific positions, almost like a sport. changing that would be extremely alienating. bot lanes that are stupid ass kill lanes with double melees isn't any more fun than Quinn top. it would also severely warp the balance of the game such that it would take an extremely long time to fix. even just giving them competition would change how those lanes feel for the worse

right now, adcs are fairly weak. so the kind of change to make them not always taken, it would require they be complete, aatrox level, total trash, every single one of them. you'd alienate a huge player base. just like if you made all mages and assassins completely trash in one go, and totally removed every current mid laner. its a really bad idea.

LankPantsDec 13, 20161 votes

we'll make it just as viable to go mages or adcs in top. can you imagine how pissed off top laners would be?

What the fuck do you think Jayce and Kennen are? This has already happened.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 13, 20161 votes

yeah its annoying, and they aren't even true adcs, they do have to get up close to really fight you.

I for one don't want to fight yasuo/wukong in bot lane or something

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRDec 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uErW4NUE,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-13T01:57:20.827+0000) right now, adcs are fairly weak. so the kind of change to make them not always taken, it would require they be complete, aatrox level, total trash, every single one of them. you'd alienate a huge player base. just like if you made all mages and assassins completely trash in one go, and totally removed every current mid laner. its a really bad idea.

I don't want ADCs to be weak. I want another botlane option to be strong enough that it's a viable option in addition to ADCs. I don't want ADC to be so bad you don't have to have one, I want something else to be strong enough that either is a good option.

Essentially, I want people to decide if they want an ADC on their team because "There's just too many good options" rather than "ADCs are so bad it's not even worth it". I don't wanna alienate ADCs, especially as a support main because that would screw me over too, I just want there to be more than the one option.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 13, 20161 votes

I mean... there's different kinds of adcs, particularly the caster kinds vs the auto kind. I dunno what you expect. making something like a fighter viable bot lane, I don't think it makes for a more fun game at all- see morde.

MordepoolDec 13, 20164 votes

Is it Too Much to ask for a Rotating game Mode without Marksmen. This is what I want and would help the Community as a whole

RebonackDec 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Is it Too Much to ask for a Rotating game Mode without Marksmen. This is what I want and would help the Community as a whole

We had a map like that.

It was called Dominion and it was deleted because you people preferred bitching about Rift's awful design instead of playing the map that was created to address those problems.

aspects1Dec 13, 20163 votes

someone sounds upset about all the negative attention their favorite class is getting :) from an assassin main, its just vayne that's the problem

MarshbouyDec 13, 20161 votes

top 3 champions are Ryze, Nidalee, Azir the vast majority of my ranked games are jungle and the rest are support (with a few other roles mixed in) Do i sound like an ADC main?

aspects1Dec 13, 20162 votes

your champions suggest no but your tone suggests yes :P

Yaśuo MainDec 13, 20162 votes

"assassin main"

you play mostly top laners and junglers according to match history

aspects1Dec 13, 20161 votes

the only top i play is illaoi (who is practically an assassin with e-r) and the junglers i play are either assassins or fighter assassins like xin

Yaśuo MainDec 14, 20161 votes

almost no champion is an assassin jungler unless you prove me otherwise

fighter assassins dont even exist, unless you are relating to skirmishers

and you called illaoi an assassin wtf?

aspects1Dec 14, 20161 votes

e+r will 1 shot almost anyone, if youve ever faced an illaoi. its scary and for people like xin, i go bloodrazer, triforce, ghstblade, merctreads, bloodthirster, death's dance. which is why it is an assassin build; its full ad xin and what do you call rengo or kha zix if not assassin junglers?

Yaśuo MainDec 14, 20161 votes

i really cant understand what you think rn

thats like maining AP shaco and saying you are a "mage main".

xin, illoai, all that other crap. if they arent labelled assassins, they aren't an assassin. there is a page for this too

AnonagonDec 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Assassins and mages counter ADCs Tanks counter assassins and mages Adcs counter tanks

while I don't particularly have an opinion on the actual subject of this thread, I do want to say that this entire "X class counters Y class" is not a thing and shouldn't be a thing. Having rock-paper-scissors class balance like that is exactly how classes become mandatory. It makes lane matchups binary, and game outcomes predictable ("they have two mages and we have no tanks, oh no!") Its not how the game is, because there are tank-killing mages and there are carries (both AD and AP) who excel against assassins, and its not how the game should be, because then those champions wouldn't be allowed to exist.

Athenes LuluDec 12, 20162 votes

And removing them from the game would turn mages and even supports into ADCs.

That's the importance of ranged sustained damage.

MarshbouyDec 12, 20162 votes

Not ADCs but APCs, and i think that non ADC marksman would come before them.

Athenes LuluDec 12, 20163 votes

What I was talking about was if ADCs were to be removed from the game, people would play non-AD marksmen as ADCs to make up for that ranged sustained damage. If that gets removed, people would find anything ranged just to be in the place of ADCs.

Either way if the "dedicated AD marksmen" are removed, people will find a way to replace that, even if it means to use support champs for that range.

MarshbouyDec 12, 20161 votes

Yeah pretty much

DestructoDaveDec 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uErW4NUE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T22:38:15.357+0000)

What I was talking about was if ADCs were to be removed from the game, people would play non-AD marksmen as ADCs to make up for that ranged sustained damage. If that gets removed, people would find anything ranged just to be in the place of ADCs.

Either way if the "dedicated AD marksmen" are removed, people will find a way to replace that, even if it means to use support champs for that range.

I personally dont understand why people get so worked up about ADCs in the bot lane. They go there, because they scale primarily off gold, and XP isnt near as important. Meanwhile most of the top lane and mid lane champs, scale primarily off XP and levels. Any champs that don't adhere to that formula, end up migrating to support, like Brand/Morg/Zyra/etc. Those champs either have free damage in their kits, or aren't as effected by low gold or low xp. But they don't scale off gold as well as ADCs, so they support instead of take CS.

People get so mad because an ADC is in every game, when there is nothing you can do about it because the game is 5v5, and one lane HAS to be duo. So by default, champs that are effected the least by XP deficits, end up bot lane. And to maximize that problem, one of them ends up being an ADC that scales incredibly well off gold. I mean the role of jungler CAME from the fact that having 2 solo lanes was more beneficial than having 2 duo lanes. It doesnt matter that you can play all kinds of weird shit in the jungle/top/mid; those lanes are more dynamic. Bot lane is static because of the restrictions placed on it by what works down there. So to get mad because you cant play some dumb shit bot when its a clear disadvantage because of how the game is, is ludicrous.

Athenes LuluDec 12, 20161 votes

What people have a problem with is the fact that there has to be some ranged sustained dps somewhere in the team, usually in the place of a duo lane.

But with the importance of ranged sustained DPS they're still going to be "mandatory" in every team, no matter how balance dictates unless we make everyone melee in the game.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 12, 20162 votes

They should get over it. Every position has requirements like that. Mid has to have wave clear and burst. Top has to have good extended trading and the ability to not just be run down after you use a spell. Supports need high base stat, cc, generally high impact with low gold. Junglers have to have sustain or aoe and have to have high impact ganks

DanjengDec 13, 20161 votes

How do you explain Vayne the ADC assasin.

MarshbouyDec 13, 20161 votes

Overtuned champion that was given ridiculous scaling on their Q.

WoonStruckDec 13, 20161 votes

ADCs don't counter tanks and they were never meant to.

ADCs just have such absurd damage that they counter everything via damage.

Think about it for a minute. You're probably thinking "if adc gets in range of a mage or assassin, they're dead".

Guess what? The same is true of a tank. They will get locked down and collapsed on if they get in range of the tank. ADCs just kill them while their abilities are on CD.

ADCs don't counter tanks because if that's the case, they counter everything else harder.

HazyCloud7Dec 13, 20161 votes

Who's suggesting to remove adcs? The only thing I've seen is people asking for other classes to be viable bot lane.

JedenVojakDec 13, 20161 votes

Really they just need some kind of melee pusher/sieger in this game. I don't know how you'd do that with making said champion completely oppressive to people under turrets though.

Maybe really tanky but extra strong at turret smashing?