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"scuttle timer raised"

PhantomGG··124 votes·19,549 views

So we give you some of the loudest feed back of anger we have ever given you about a patch/idea and you insist on keeping it instead of just reverting back to the old scuttle system?

This might actually be the season that drives me to quitting league of legends.

I can't handle another whole year where the community is literally and only asking for one thing, one thing we all agree that's terrible, and riot refuses to answer it.

Season 6-We beg for for solo back, it didn't happen till season 7

season 7- We beg for ardent nerfs, didn't happen till season 8

Season 8: the year of the scuttle

I legit just can't emotionally handle of the same bull over and over again, where a rioter creates a legitimately terrible idea, and the rioter insists that his idea is good, some how gets someone higher up to agree to it, and because of that the entire community has to actually suffer from it.

The thing that hurts the game the most is literally the design teams ego trying to force bad ideas down the balance teams throats for Big boss men say "MAKE IT WORK".

It's literally not even the balance teams fault, you can't balance an idea that is fundamentally horrible. All you can do is nerf it to the ground until it no longer exists.

Edit: Let's not forget how stone plate basically got nerfed into none existence

114 Comments

TheFancySkeleton40 votes

The logical conclusion is that we all start playing Twisted Treeline only to show Riot that these changes are so bad that even Twisted Treeline is worth it.

AetherArising13 votes

{quoted}

The logical conclusion is that we all start playing Twisted Treeline only to show Riot that these changes are so bad that even Twisted Treeline is worth it.

Yesterday i played a bunch of TT and it was fuckin F U N

mind you that last year i lost like 9 out of 10 TT games so i got put in bronze5 because i didnt understand anything about rotating n shit

but man

because riot has completely and utterly ignored Twisted Treeline for like 3 years, it's the most balanced it's ever been, because riot hasnt been spewing shit all over the gamemode.

TheFancySkeleton2 votes

Funnier in hindsight, is that all I play is Twisted Treeline.

Cosmic Warper4 votes

{quoted}

Yesterday i played a bunch of TT and it was fuckin F U N

mind you that last year i lost like 9 out of 10 TT games so i got put in bronze5 because i didnt understand anything about rotating n shit

but man

because riot has completely and utterly ignored Twisted Treeline for like 3 years, it's the most balanced it's ever been, because riot hasnt been spewing shit all over the gamemode.

As someone who plays TT ranked, you're wrong lmao. TT is not balanced at all. Support comps/2 man top smite comps are still busted, and some champs are permaban or lose status and have been that way for a long time

Sire Hippington1 votes

while tt sure is far from balanced, i still enjoy it more than 5v5 in it's current state...and it's much easier to get 3 man premade, and premade>>>>>>>>randomguys regardless of the game mode

Velasan1 votes

Yeah I tried TT last season and hated it. Games stall out a long time where there's nothing one side can do, but no good way to push into their base, and certain champions are a great deal stronger with no vision and lots of bushes.

GankLord1 votes

holy shit dude ... i forgot twisted tree line exists no lie ... what have I been doing

The Nocturne God32 votes

Too much of an advantage is based around the RNG crab... something needs to change for sure...

ThePikol22 votes

Riot won't revert jungle changes. Thay are too full of themselves

KlydeFrog2 votes

Umm because there is nothing wrong with the jungle

PhantomGG2 votes

{quoted}

Umm because there is nothing wrong with the jungle

Not sure if trolling or quite actually retarded

DerMangoJoghurt19 votes

I don't have any statistics to back it up, but I feel like it's just a really vocal minority complaining about Scuttle changes.

Paroe32 votes

{quoted}

I don't have any statistics to back it up, but I feel like it's just a really vocal minority complaining about Scuttle changes.

WHen pros and reddit have the same complaints, its an issue.

@thread I dont know if you know this, but riot employs the "If it stays this way people will adjust" strategy; basically, they dont really change things back, because eventually people will just accept it as "the way it is".

Thats why marksmen are allowed to do what they do and why lee-sin never got real nerfs.

Spank the Fox15 votes

Pros complained about it on patch day and then stopped immediately after as it didn’t spell out the end of times like you guys try to prophetize.

I don’t agree with the change but it’s not as bad as you’re making it out to be. It actually made for an interesting dynamic with laners and junglers and with some further tuning, could be a good change.

Anyways, main point, pros aren’t complaining about it right now. Don’t drag them in.

Paroe23 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uAdflTIZ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-24T11:35:45.175+0000)

Pros complained about it on patch day and then stopped immediately after as it didn’t spell out the end of times like you guys try to prophetize.

I don’t agree with the change but it’s not as bad as you’re making it out to be. It actually made for an interesting dynamic with laners and junglers and with some further tuning, could be a good change.

Anyways, main point, pros aren’t complaining about it right now. Don’t drag them in.

It... will never be a good change. It forces junglers to conform to an early gank paradigm - which means the only viable junglers will be duelists and tanks capable of early ganks.

Im pretty sure pros are still complaining as well - they just dont harp on it unless they interact with it in their personal role.

PhantomGG13 votes

{quoted}

It... will never be a good change. It forces junglers to conform to an early gank paradigm - which means the only viable junglers will be duelists and tanks capable of early ganks.

Im pretty sure pros are still complaining as well - they just dont harp on it unless they interact with it in their personal role.

or we can just uhm, get rid of it entirely and revert it while nerfing jungle exp ..u know, like everyone wanted

BestPudgeNA7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uAdflTIZ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-05-24T11:35:45.175+0000)

Pros complained about it on patch day and then stopped immediately after as it didn’t spell out the end of times like you guys try to prophetize.

Literally all of the Master/challenger streamers who jungle bitch about it nonstop on their streams.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Junglers are whiny bitches hence why they bitch about it. Nothing new.

Oleandervine11 votes

{quoted}

Junglers are whiny bitches hence why they bitch about it. Nothing new.

Junglers have their role completely revamped every year, which means they have to relearn it entirely. Laners NEVER have the laning phase completely overhauled as a means of balancing the roles. They don't do things like adding in the capability for cannon minions to cause enemy minions it kills to randomly explode, or make is so that the brush in the lanes will sometimes spawn a healing shrine, or create a golden snitch minion that moves with 600% move speed around the map but both sides can kill it to get bonus XP and a free ward - nothing of that nature gets added into laning.

The worst thing laners have had to deal with recently has been the minion gold and shutdown gold changes, and whether or not to buy this shiny new item. Meanwhile, junglers got randomly spawning drakes, scuttle crabs, plants, buffs that changed depending on the camp you smited, alternate versions of smite itself, and now a complete readjustment of XP gains with a focus on killing the scuttle crabs in the river in the early game. It's no fucking wonder why junglers get upset so constantly when their role is the only role with the absolute least stability and consistency from season to season, and even within seasons.

DracosKasu2 votes

probally because jungle was having a lot of diverse champ in the jungle and turn into the Duelist only phase which probally many doesnt enjoy to use play. Yes the top was a fiesta before but it never lock you down into a small poll of champ. Still top is camp and die a lot but now it is way harder to counter a gank because you can fall easy behind the other jungle by 2 lvl.

I am 122 votes

I remember afk jungling, that was good days

Risen293 votes

{quoted}

probally because jungle was having a lot of diverse champ in the jungle and turn into the Duelist only phase which probally many doesnt enjoy to use play. Yes the top was a fiesta before but it never lock you down into a small poll of champ. Still top is camp and die a lot but now it is way harder to counter a gank because you can fall easy behind the other jungle by 2 lvl.

Exactly. Thier changes make no sense. Early and frequent ganks still happen if someone takes a champion that combines healthy clears with strong level 2 dueling. It actually is WORSE for the enemy if your jungler wins the scuttle war at level 2 and takes a lead over the enemy jungler, because there is no way to recover now. The exp changes mean the enemy jungler will be useless several levels behind, while you are even with the enemy lanes or even a little bit ahead because of your camp stealing, scuttles, and ganks.

All they have accomplished is to narrow the viable jungler pool and force every jungler to adopt the same playstyle.

They are compounding problem upon problem with bad changes because the only reason we had excessive early ganks was because again thier jungle changes made power farming and counter jungling not viable. They forced players to play gank playstyles. Then they get they decide success was a bad thing, so instead of giving us other optional playstyles to counter it they make the stupid decision of only re-enforcing early gank junglers.

Nuparu4 votes

What if Riot decided "fuck it" and decided to make minion spawns have one melee, two casters, and one cannon every wave?

And the rest of the gold is compounded in this random spawn that appears in the center of lane that you have to last hit?

Would a change like that be annoying as hell?

Or maybe, we should just make the towers shoot from 400 range further. Maybe that would be annoying.

Or now, the lanes are now 20% narrower because why not.

That's how random the jungle changes feel, and they almost never feel like they're solving an issue, just completely breaking the jungle again for no reason.

RekSai CoffeeCo1 votes

{quoted}

What if Riot decided "fuck it" and decided to make minion spawns have one melee, two casters, and one cannon every wave?

And the rest of the gold is compounded in this random spawn that appears in the center of lane that you have to last hit?

Would a change like that be annoying as hell?

Or maybe, we should just make the towers shoot from 400 range further. Maybe that would be annoying.

Or now, the lanes are now 20% narrower because why not.

That's how random the jungle changes feel, and they almost never feel like they're solving an issue, just completely breaking the jungle again for no reason.

It would be nice for some of these changes to get it through some people's head what it feels like.

Another solution is to have 3 waves of minions and then have all the minions afterward (all lanes) spawn in one lane (totally random lane with super movement speed), so the laners can interact more with each other, best team wins.

PhantomGG2 votes

{quoted}

What if Riot decided "fuck it" and decided to make minion spawns have one melee, two casters, and one cannon every wave?

And the rest of the gold is compounded in this random spawn that appears in the center of lane that you have to last hit?

Would a change like that be annoying as hell?

Or maybe, we should just make the towers shoot from 400 range further. Maybe that would be annoying.

Or now, the lanes are now 20% narrower because why not.

That's how random the jungle changes feel, and they almost never feel like they're solving an issue, just completely breaking the jungle again for no reason.

Fun completely random fact, riot actually already re adjusted how tower agro worked ages ago, and the change was was bloody hard for me to get use to, to the point it made me quit laning for nearly four months, for it took me ages to get my muscle memory use to the new tower range.

Beacon Academy3 votes

My friend absolutely loves Evelynn.

He had been playing her near exclusively since her rework

The runic echoes movement speed removal, scuttle RNG change, and camp exp nerf

Resulted in way too many games where the enemy team would pick an early game champion and camp the shit out of the only scuttle on the map

He'd get stuck with lower exp camps, get challenged for buffs while behind from the scuttle and fall even further behind.

Once he realized that, he just up and quit the role out of frustration.

Good change my ass.

Why does the game have to be about what champions we play rather than what we do with the champions we pick?

Spank the Fox1 votes

You don’t think I don’t love Eve and don’t play her too?

You can make champion by champion changes after big changes like this.

Cry me a fucking river.

Beacon Academy2 votes

Way to miss the point.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Jungle exp is linked to scuttle while other camps are far lower.

In other words... Junglers will be forced to fight over the single scuttle on the map

A champion not meant to be a duelist will never be a duelist unless some major rework happens to them

Hence:

"Why does the game have to be about what champions we play rather than what we do with the champions we pick?"

Did any of this get through your skull or is this post 100% about Evelynn again?

Trias0001 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uAdflTIZ,comment-id=000100000000000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-25T01:12:34.993+0000)

Jungle exp is linked to scuttle while other camps are far lower.

This is simply not true. All camps give more or less the same exp. But watch me get downvoted to death because if facts contradict a popular opinion, all the worse for the facts.

Beacon Academy1 votes

I suppose the word relatively should've been used in that sentence :/

ModCaliCoastReplay12 votes

Patch 9.1: Scuttle Crab replaced with Golden Snitch.

The first player to touch it wins the game.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Unless the other team gets 16 kills before you touch it! Then they still win.

AwesomeGuyDj1 votes

**f u n f a c t ** The golden snitch isnt actually an immediate win. It awards 100 points and ends the game. If the enemy team has more than a 100 point lead catching the snitch makes you lose. But whatever nice meme

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

**f u n f a c t ** The golden snitch isnt actually an immediate win. It awards 100 points and ends the game. If the enemy team has more than a 100 point lead catching the snitch makes you lose. But whatever nice meme

except in the average quitich game is like hockey and soccer, so anything more than 5 goals is rare

ModCaliCoastReplay1 votes

{quoted}

**f u n f a c t ** The golden snitch isnt actually an immediate win. It awards 100 points and ends the game. If the enemy team has more than a 100 point lead catching the snitch makes you lose. But whatever nice meme

Fun facts:

/s?

I assumed such could be "heard" in my tone. I know how Quidditch works. And you're taking this way too seriously.

Oleandervine5 votes

This new change to the respawn timer of the crabs doesn't actually fix the issue. The issue in itself is the initial spawn of the crabs that causes the junglers to want to move to the river in early game, which leads them to easily gank early. Changing how quickly the crab respawns doesn't stop the early ganks and focus on early pressure.

Pika Fox5 votes

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, the vocal minority who have zero game development experience are, now bear with me,..... Wrong?

SpongebobIsLife13 votes

when you have both regular players as well as pro-players and high elo streamers,( see meteos, dom, scara, qtpie, levie etc) saying that this change is horrible, there has to be some truth somewhere.

Pika Fox2 votes

The truth is players dont know how to balance games. Players are good at telling you something is wrong, players are bad at telling you what is wrong. You should pretty much never listen to a player who tells you they know whats wrong, they dont.

Feed or Famine5 votes

Well, look, here we are, players, telling you that "something is wrong with the jungle now, that wasn't a couple of patches ago. I wonder what it could be?"

Pika Fox2 votes

Sure, something may be wrong. Guess what it likely isnt? Scuttle.

Feed or Famine6 votes

"Something is forcing the jungles to play one, distinct style that alienates most of the champion pool, causing early game junglers to run rampant over their competition, killing diversity instead of helping it, making it so that they are often behind in levels at key points in the game, enforcing snowballing even more than it already was, causing the role itself to feel underwhelming, and making it so that jungle now seems to be the most ganked role in the game. Now, if only we could identify some kind of turning point where this seemed to have happened."

Oh wait

Pika Fox3 votes

That would be true in a vaccume, but riot can do a myriad of other things to adjust post change other than reverting the change.

Even the "ADC issue" wasnt ADCs are OP, it was non early game ADCs got nerfed repeatedly to the point where crit scaling ADCs were the only option. Guess what the solution was? Buffing ADCs and giving them more items for non crit scaling champions. You know, the thing no one said?

Divewing4 votes

that is total bs.

The ADC issue was ADCs came online at 2-2.5 items.

"Late game scaling" that was achieved at 15-20 minutes. Completely asinine.

Pika Fox2 votes

2.5-3 items is about where you want late game ADCs to start to function. Else youre useless for the entire game and might as well not even play (average game time is sub 30 mins)

Issue wasnt really that crit scaling was OP, it was every early game ADC's build path was nerfed to the ground. BC/Lethality ADC builds were shot, PTA was nerfed, Tempo was always garbage, ambient goldgen was upped making crit builds better, and most early game ADCs got nerfs in the past (lucian being the big example).

The fix was slightly shifting back crit items, and adding more power to early game ADC itemization, the buffs being the bigger player as to what will actually fix the ADC issue.

Automated Riven1 votes

I kinda agree with you. However 'starting to function' is not the same as instantly becoming the highest damage character in the game upon completion. To the extent that some friends and I played rather successfully with two separate styles. 4 adc's and a support. And 4 supports and an adc.

Pika Fox1 votes

4 ADC comps wouldnt really work in a real game. You lack protection and will just get CCd to hell and back. It doesnt matter how much damage you can do if you die before you can do any.

4 supports is much more reasonable, as the support class has a variety of champs who can typically function in other lanes to some extent as well.

HonestJohnTheCon3 votes

Riot, as a company, is extremely proud. They don't like to go back on their decisions even if it turns out to be a clearly bad decision. That's their fatal flaw.

They'll probably fiddle around with Scuttle, attempting to make it healthier, before either reworking or reverting it in a few months.

It's happened before, it'll happen again. It's not a very intelligent business plan, IMO, but it's worked for them so far...

At least we know League won't die due to this change alone, as similar ones have happened in the past.

BugsLivesMatters1 votes

I have been playing since season 5 and out of all the crap Rito has done to this game thus far, I have remained a diehard and loyal fan. I fell in love with this game. My favourite role was jungle and I played it literally 90% of matches over the years. Every time I logged on and called "jg"I felt right at home.

When I heard about the scuttle changes and saw all the negative reactions regarding it, I honestly didn't think it was going to have that much of an impact. "The community is just overreacting" I said to myself. Oh boy how wrong I was! The scuttle changes didn't just affect the jungle, it literally impacted every single lane and every game since has been a hussle over who can get the scuttle first; and then proceed to fight over the next scuttle spawns for the next 10 to 20 mins. I'm not going to mention all of the other issues this change has caused, as I'm sure everyone on this thread has covered those parts.

It's ruined the only role I genuinely enjoy, and I know Rito aren't going to revert the changes until next season (if they revert it at all). And I am not waiting that long for them to fix it.

I have sunk over $200 into this game and I now regret supporting a company that honestly couldn't give a rats arse about its community. You used to care Riot, but now the fat cat on top of the pyramid is fatter than ever and it's hunger for money will never be sated.

You have driven me to quit League, Riot. This is the straw that broke the camel's back, and you will be your own undoing when this game eventually dies.

It's time that I move on. So long and gg fellow summoners.

Risen293 votes

{quoted} When I heard about the scuttle changes and saw all the negative reactions regarding it, I honestly didn't think it was going to have that much of an impact. "The community is just overreacting" I said to myself. Oh boy how wrong I was! The scuttle changes didn't just affect the jungle, it literally impacted every single lane and every game since has been a hussle over who can get the scuttle first; and then proceed to fight over the next scuttle spawns for the next 10 to 20 mins. I'm not going to mention all of the other issues this change has caused, as I'm sure everyone on this thread has covered those parts.

They didn't realize that there are consequences for one jungler getting behind another jungler so early without a way to catch up. - consequences that impact every lane during the lane phase, and thus the whole game.

That's why everyone is in a mad dash to help their jungler secure the scuttle, if they are high enough elo to realize they need to, out of a sense of self preservation - they don't want to have to get constantly ganked all lane phase, uncontested by their own jungler, just because their jungler didn't get the scuttle crabs.

This is not what they could have intended to happen. Now it's the laners job to babysit the jungler, instead of the other way around.

In past jungles, you could get behind, but that was because the jungler made some plays to get you behind. Because the jungles were always even by design. If they invaded your jungle in one spot you could counter potentially by invading another spot in theirs (even if you were behind, you could hit parts of their jungle that they weren't near without having to fight them). But with the new changes, you automatically get put behind just by virtue of not picking from a narrow pool of champions who cannot contest scuttle. Because the design is not even. But the scuttle makes the entire scenario asymetrical and forces one side to get an advantage because you can't respond tit for tat. You take my buff, I take yours on the other side of the jungle. Doesn't work anymore. You take scuttle, I get nothing, because there's only one.One side is guaranteed to get an advantage, by design. And then they can press that advantage to widen it, never losing it.

There is nothing comparable to this in laning. It would be like having a neutral minion pop up in the lane at random times, then whoever landed the last hit on it first got a big amount of exp and gold. That would totally trash laning dynamics.

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