Riot was it really so hard?

PhantomGG·May 18, 2018·101 votes·17,716 views

To just adjust how exp worked in the jungle so junglers would stay on pace with laners instead of being constantly ahead? Was it really just SO BLOODY hard to adjust exp? Maybe give them some gold buffs to compensate?

Why in god's name did you have to over complicate the shit out of it with scuttler?

Hell this entire patch could of possibly been fine MAYBE EVEN GOOD, if you did everything you did, and left the crab alone.

Don't get what was so bloody hard about just lowering jungle exp rewards. especially when you had almost a whole year to do it and talk this out among each other. But apparently after a whole year of planning.

"let's put all the exp on a RNG scuttle crab" was the best idea you guys could come up with.

55 Comments

AnateraMay 18, 201849 votes

Riot has this constant irritating misconception that they have to reinvent the wheel with every patch. It's annoying. No one cares how you "breath fresh life into mobas." You have to make a good one first before doing that.

NorthernRedStarMay 18, 201816 votes

Gotta keep the game fresh to attract new players while the old ones leave.

BattalionMay 18, 201817 votes

If the game development wasn't so frustrating, perhaps old players wouldn't leave so often. As it stands, It's like every time a good change is made another change or two changes that are just frustrating and needlessly complicated are implemented to balance it out. Do you know why the community seems to always be angry? It's because every time something is fixed another thing is broken that didn't need to be. It's like making a deal with the devil; if you don't spell out everything very carefully suddenly the world is overrun by demon T-Rexes riding unicycles and the ice-cream machine at maccas is broken.

IcyPepperMay 18, 20183 votes

suddenly the world is overrun by demon T-Rexes riding unicycles

I'm okay with this--

and the ice-cream machine at maccas is broken.

"Suddenly"

3TWarriorMay 18, 20185 votes

but then, hell froze over when the spray cheese and liquid cheese ran out

IcyPepperMay 18, 20182 votes

No...

3TWarriorMay 18, 20186 votes

and then, the universe collapsed in on itself as caffeine CEASED TO EXIST! XD

IcyPepperMay 18, 20183 votes

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv6mw1Erq51qixleeo1_400.gif

3TWarriorMay 18, 20181 votes

oh, but it gets worse! from then onward, the idea of memes and captions for effect became as boring as doing taxes!

TheSingularityMay 18, 20183 votes

Hence why every freakin pre season since jungle rework is a disaster

VerxintMay 19, 20181 votes

They also have a continual misconception that making it more and more and more and more puishing to make one mistake is the best way to create a competitive environment with lots of action.

notice me Sin piMay 18, 201824 votes

Back then, a jungler vs jungler matchup felt like playing a chess, predicting opponent's actions based on laners' wave managements, cleared camp, camp respawn timings, 1vs1 potentials, etc. and outsmarting the opposing jungler without any mechanics felt awesome.

I miss it.

KeevalroyMay 18, 201819 votes

"But dats BOOOORING doe! Muh #BigPlayz doe! Muh overloaded pieces of shit flying across the screen like mosquitoes in a swamp oneshotting everybody doe" - spectators/balance team.

KeevalroyMay 18, 201816 votes

Never liked the crab since they brought it to the rift since its real purpose was justifying Riot's anti-vision crusade. I would rather they just remove the crab altogether...then remove scryers bloom and let us buy green wards again, but one step at a time works too.

MohawkBirdMay 18, 201810 votes

[deleted]

Tomoe GozenMay 18, 20181 votes

And people like you seem to enjoy a riveting 1v1 experience until 20 minutes of the game. More and more of these dumb arguments come across the boards that i cannot fathom how you think and still believe such a slowpoke game would even turn out good in your eyes. Scuttle Crab is now a mini objective that naturally draws nearby laners/junglers to contest it.

The whole point of this experience is to have a dynamic map experience, not to just fuck off for 20 minutes in your jungle/lane and never to see or hear from your teammates until everyone is ready to have a single fucknig big fight and end the game.

VerxintMay 19, 20185 votes

I don't have a problem with the game involving other players. I have a problem with "take this one single RNG-based objective or lose horribly".

Tomoe GozenMay 19, 20182 votes

The only RNG thing here is the spawn location of the Scuttle after the first spawn. Which again, is telegraphed way ahead of time so you know where the fight's going to be happening way in advance and you can plan ahead of time. What makes me most livid when i hear the infamous RNG argument is that it's become a trigger word.

The moment someone mentions RNG, that's the moment the brains of those people shut down and this change is immediately made out to be the worst change in the game, regardless of how the RNG was applied. Spawn location being RNG doesn't impact your gameplay at all, given that you know where and when it's going to go down. This means that the fight is going to be in one or the two river locations, meaning that you can't camp the shit out of a single lane if you want the Scuttle EXP, gold and a speed boost pad for an easier ganking/roaming opportunities.

Scuttle suddenly isn't more important than a Dragon, Herald, Baron or Elder and don't make it out to be.

VerxintMay 19, 20181 votes

But why introduce more RNG when it's completely unnecessary? There was two things people wanted. First, they wanted junglers who sat and repeatedly ganked a lane to get get to abuse catchup XP to avoid falling behind. This could easily have been achieved with changes to XP gain and spawn timers. Second, people wanted level 3 junglers to stop coming out at 2:30 when they weren't even halfway through level 2. Again, just adjust the XP. There was no reason to add this scuttle bullshit and make more randomness in the games macro (even if you know where it is, it still forces you to respond not because it's actually a smart move but because the objective is artificially inflated) except that Riot wants more fights in LCS. Of course, they keep doing the opposite of what will make more fights at the pro level but maybe one day they'll realize that.

Tomoe GozenMay 20, 20181 votes

RNG is basically what crit does. You don't know when it's going to happen until you get hit in the face. And even small percentages can lead in some cases, to repeated crits that win you the fights hard when it shouldn't. This is RNG that can be bad sometimes.

Scuttle Crab RNGing the spawn location (top or bottom river) and you knowing 2.5 minutes beforehand where it's going to spawn isn't actual RNG that influences your macro game in any bad way. Jungle EXP has been adjusted as many wanted and the thing that bothers you is that Riot added something else that no one requested?

How are you to tell Riot what they can and can't add to this game? Last time i checked, the community's wants or needs aren't a to-do list that Riot goes by with every patch, to the exact letter.

SpreekMay 18, 20188 votes

Reducing jungle XP is fine. Conditionally reducing jungle XP to force junglers into one playstyle is not OK. Especially when it relies primarily on champion select, RNG, and teammates responses.

Beacon AcademyMay 18, 20188 votes

The game is fun when you have the freedom of options.

Riot wants league to have a single choice.

And being forced to do something is not fun.

The game used to be in a good spot imo

Where it was champion kits and gold vs champion kits and gold

Now there are special effect runes and random permanent buffs via random dragons

Now there are early game "options" of objective taking via tower resistance falling off timer and herald

Now there is a random ass scuttle that gives a jungler the lead... BUT ONLY... if they have a good team and are lucky in whichever river it spawns in.

Those things aren't options you "can" choose. Those are things you "have" to obtain or do or you lose.

Metal JannaMay 18, 20186 votes

{quoted}

To just adjust how exp worked in the jungle so junglers would stay on pace with laners instead of being constantly ahead? Was it really just SO BLOODY hard to adjust exp? Maybe give them some gold buffs to compensate?

Why in god's name did you have to over complicate the shit out of it with scuttler?

Hell this entire patch could of possibly been fine MAYBE EVEN GOOD, if you did everything you did, and left the crab alone.

Don't get what was so bloody hard about just lowering jungle exp rewards. especially when you had almost a whole year to do it and talk this out among each other. But apparently after a whole year of planning.

"let's put all the exp on a RNG scuttle crab" was the best idea you guys could come up with.

This. The xp rate nerf was all the change jungle needed. You didn't even need to change Rift Scuttler. "Rift Scuttler isn’t the hotly contested objective we’d like it to be..." Really? It's not contested enough? In what ELO? Oh, you mean not contested by the enemy jungler enough. Yeah warping the whole jungle meta just to force more duels between the junglers for the sake of the LCS spectator is dumb.

ChaddyFantomeMay 18, 20181 votes

{quoted} Yeah warping the whole jungle meta just to force more duels between the junglers for the sake of the LCS spectator is dumb.

Its so blatantly obvious that this is why they did it too.

BobaFlautistMay 18, 20185 votes

Here's the complication with tuning jungle xp (as opposed to lane xp): some junglers clear the jungle MUCH faster than others.

Sure, some laners have better wave clear than others, but there's still a maximum amount of gold and xp they can get every 30s (barring complicated rotations/starving their alloes by proxying).

If Riot tunes it so an average jungle clear gives equal gold and xp as laners get, above average clearers are too strong and below-average clearers too weak. That's why the jungle has specific, targeted breakpoints that give you specific levels. They have to keep track of every possible route, carefully manage respawn times, and juggle a million factors. Otherwise the game becomes "Can Shyvanna 1v3, or is she limited to 1v2?"

VerxintMay 19, 20181 votes

This is more a problem that Riot has continually crafted their game so that smaller and smaller advantages are more and more decisive. There will always be slower and faster clearers, the problem is when being only a little faster lets you run circles around the other guy because everything is so snowbally

muted team chatMay 18, 20185 votes

I miss the patches that were just 100 minor stat changes to champs and minions/monsters to try and adjust relative power levels.

MetalGearTeemoMay 18, 20181 votes

Go play dota if you want that.

3TWarriorMay 18, 20181 votes

problem with dota: their interface is horrible

another problem: you either have to know your champ by name or sort through 100+ on a rotating wheel

Daedric EtwahlMay 19, 20181 votes

I tried Dota. One of the biggest issues I had with it was that you cant hold down MB2 and have your character constantly follow it. Also theres no camera lock button, gotta hold it down when I wanna keep it locked.

Plus it looks nice, I think, but theres too much visual clutter, not enough clarity.

Also League has Sona.

JESUSSAYSNOMay 18, 20184 votes

Crab change is good. Forces laners to be aware of the map.

Neptunia xoxoMay 18, 201820 votes

{quoted}

Crab change is good. Forces laners to be aware of the map.

No it causes more Snowballing in the jungle and even now a lot of mid laners and supports are taking smite just to go for scuttle early since it gives such high amounts of XP / Gold. The way scuttle was before was fine but this change is just awful for the game and needs to be reverted asap.

JESUSSAYSNOMay 18, 20186 votes

I think the impact is generally fine, outside of forcing mids into smite. The design is good. Frequently spawning objectives that obviously force team rotations and makes macro play matter more.

The intent behind the change is to shake up viable picks. The meta has been pretty much solved for a while until now and there's not a lot of non-sweeping changes that can be made to change it. This change shakes up both jungle and lane viability, and we should, in theory, see different champions and strategies revolve around this. In addition, with the changes to shut down gold, we'll be seeing more fights in any given game, starting earlier.

In super low elo, probably below silver 3, it's absolutely a jungle snowball mechanism currently. Over time players will adapt and learn how to play with it as an element. I think it's absolutely foolish to assume it's a poor change at this point when it just dropped. It seems like a 'change is bad' reaction, rather than a critical one. I want to see the meta around it be solved, and see how dramaticaly it impacts the general play patterns of the game.

Neptunia xoxoMay 18, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I think the impact is generally fine, outside of forcing mids into smite. The design is good. Frequently spawning objectives that obviously force team rotations and makes macro play matter more.

The intent behind the change is to shake up viable picks. The meta has been pretty much solved for a while until now and there's not a lot of non-sweeping changes that can be made to change it. This change shakes up both jungle and lane viability, and we should, in theory, see different champions and strategies revolve around this. In addition, with the changes to shut down gold, we'll be seeing more fights in any given game, starting earlier.

In super low elo, probably below silver 3, it's absolutely a jungle snowball mechanism currently. Over time players will adapt and learn how to play with it as an element. I think it's absolutely foolish to assume it's a poor change at this point when it just dropped. It seems like a 'change is bad' reaction, rather than a critical one. I want to see the meta around it be solved, and see how dramaticaly it impacts the general play patterns of the game.

Dude it's snowbally in every elo LOL the design is trash if anything they should cut the XP you get from scuttle by half and same with the gold.

Feed or FamineMay 18, 20187 votes

Have you been keeping up with the jungle this season? The meta started off as tank junglers, but since they nerfed them into near nonplayability, it was moving in the direction of utility bruisers (skarner, trundle, olaf). Now, tanks are actually unplayable, snowball soloq champs dominate, and trundle/nunu are the only real remnants of the old meta. It doesn't "shake up" the meta, it actually made a large portion of champions actually terrible, which is the exact opposite of what they should have done.

And, more often than not, it turns into less Macro play and more micro. Outside of high ELO, laners rarely give a shit about their jungle except to cry when they get ganked. So it turns into a "does my champion counter his? No? Then i guess I just fall 2-3 levels behind and hope for the best."

Out of the games I've played so far in low Plat elo, I've had maybe one-two games where the mid laners help contest scuttle a few times early. Other than that, it was just a 1v1 for the first 4-5 of them, and whoever lost the first couple just had to give up on them after, and hope there was something they could trade for on the other side of the map.

JimTheSnailMay 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fk me Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQYwdLqj,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-05-18T17:12:21.744+0000)

No it causes more Snowballing in the jungle and even now a lot of mid laners and supports are taking smite just to go for scuttle early since it gives such high amounts of XP / Gold. The way scuttle was before was fine but this change is just awful for the game and needs to be reverted asap.

I find the support part false since you cannot build the jungle item and a support item at the same time. Would feel to weird now with a useless summoner sitting in your inventory when easily take exhaust and win a fight or ignite or heal. (however spellbook does let you get smite for the scuttle rotation yes)

Awf MetaMay 18, 20181 votes

smite + relic shield

Daedric EtwahlMay 19, 20182 votes

Not really speaking for how good it is or anything, but today I had a game with a Heimer top who took Smite, no jg item. He showed up to lane late because he took Scuttle st the start of the game.

Apparently Scuttle gives enough EXP to level you up to 2, even without a jungle item. Dunno about you guys but that seems like a bit much

SolitairMay 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fk me Ahri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQYwdLqj,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-05-18T17:12:21.744+0000)

No it causes more Snowballing in the jungle and even now a lot of mid laners and supports are taking smite just to go for scuttle early since it gives such high amounts of XP / Gold. The way scuttle was before was fine but this change is just awful for the game and needs to be reverted asap.

Yea, I can't even remember the last time I've seen a jungler take over a game so hard-- multiple times! Like, just as a typical trend! It's actually ridiculous. I think these changes fail miserably at their goals because not only do they fail to reduce a jungler's early impact overall, they snowball the jungler that plays around the crab better to an insane extent. Jungler's influence now feels even more oppressive than before because all of the junglers that this change hurt are simply being dropped from people's options, while the ones that could survive this shit are thriving as well.

HammermancerMay 18, 20183 votes

why do junglers call everything they don't like 'RNG' it's not RNG it's hard numbers

you know where the next one will spawn, same as plants, there's nothing RNG about it.

the only RNG in this game is dragon rotations and critical strike

VelasanMay 18, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UQYwdLqj,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-05-18T19:02:11.058+0000)

why do junglers call everything they don't like 'RNG' it's not RNG it's hard numbers

you know where the next one will spawn, same as plants, there's nothing RNG about it.

the only RNG in this game is dragon rotations and critical strike

That's not what RNG means. The point is the randomization in spawn location, not that you don't know it will spawn there. Same thing with dragons, it is RNG as to which elemental drakes will spawn not that you aren't aware there are dragons in the game.

People understand that scuttlecrabs and dragons are in the game, that's like saying you didn't know a dragon would spawn all game.

RNG = Random Number Generator.

FCJAAAAGOOOOMay 18, 20183 votes

It's like the game is constantly inevitably a joke but it's actually the real live game. They don't want money is all I figure.

VelasanMay 18, 20183 votes

I don't hate the scuttle changes, but I certainly don't think it's better for the game.

The closest thing it reminds me of is Skarner spires. You need them because it makes Skarner so much stronger, but it's annoying, boring, and gives away information to constantly have to stop to take them all the time all over the map and the team that is ahead gets to sit on them.

So, basically they took the Skarner spire problem and put it on scuttle crabs. Really wish they would go back and fix both.

Snowman ArcMay 18, 20182 votes

If they decreased the XP granted from jungle camps, then there would be no point in farming the jungle. There would be even more lane ganking presence than before, and dare I say, the jungler role could cease to exist. You would once again see duo top, and maybe one of the duoers takes smite so he can clear some camps while the lane is pushing.

MohawkBirdMay 18, 20183 votes

[deleted]

JimTheSnailMay 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

To counteract decrease in exp, respawn timers would likely need to go up slightly. Seems like a fair and viable solution that will solve the problem.

I would not mind this change but I refuse to believe that increasing the EXP earned again would be a good idea. It felt real bad being ganked around 2:30 xD

AptestMay 18, 20181 votes

not really.

jungle is a viable strategy as long as jungle gold is above 40-50% of laner gold. Please refer to seasons 2-3 for example. That is a really low amount of gold.

SpencerMay 18, 20181 votes

You would likely not see duo top. Duo top means two champs are getting behind on XP.

ChaddyFantomeMay 18, 20182 votes

Its clear to me that the idea with Scuttler was their way of killing 2 birds with one stone. Junglers complained about lack of jungle vs Jungle interaction because their camps were worth too much but respawned less frequently, making the meta gank centric as hell.

Riot then used the opportunity to twist the request into something that would be flashy for LCS. Only thing that makes sense.