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Assassin items for AP champions?

Zerenza··9 votes·875 views

It really sucks that everytime an item(s) get's nerfed for mages it get's nerfed for AP Assassins too, i know riot doesn't like to but can we get some AP Assassin items? They don't have to melee only buuuut if they had a penalty for ranged champons like BoRK currently does on PBE then i think that would be good.

AP Assassins and AD Assassins frequently end up in the gutter due to their ranged counterparts abusing their own items. Abyssal scepter for example was an AMAZING Melee AP Assassin item, but it got shafted and replaced so many AP assassins builds aren't as good as they were before. Banshee's is still nice to have but assassins would like compensation for one of their core items being taken away. It should also be noted that their are a lot more AD items in the game than there are AP items, meaning that a champion like Vel'koz, has roughtly the exact same build as say Katarina, Ahri or Diana. There are of course differences, such as many assassins defaulting to Gunblade and Protobelt but other than that they'll have Morrello, Zhonya's, Banshee's and Deathcap as their core items, every so often Lich Bane makes it's way in there but it's usually flavor of the week.

Ultimately i'd really like to see some more AP items, mostly geared towards AP Assassins because it's kind of getting annoying for them to have the same build paths as Mages and get nerfed when mage's get those items nerfed.

Note: This isn't a Melee VS Range discussion, it's just the truth, assassins in many cases suffer from other people abusing items intended for them.

12 Comments

Erockandroll2 votes

AP is kinda a weird area. With AD itemization, you have so much variation between Bruiser, Carry, AD caster, that their ends up with a lot less cross pollination simply due to secondary stats. Yet with AP itemization, the only relevant damage stat out side of Raw ap is Mpen.

For that Reason, is why their is so much cross pollination between AP Assassin and mage. Which is why Mages could build Assassin items and become Assassin themselves. And this is the reason why we lost DFG. Though if I understood Riots opinion on the matter, the fact that they cross polinate so much, means that they can balance the Assassins around the build and not the other way around. (Basically saying that AP Assassins don't actually need items tailored to them)

Though if AP Assassins were to get more items specifically for them, I'd imagine it would be more a Utility that an Assassin would want and a mage wouldn't. Otherwise, we will end up with the same problem that DFG had.

Ganked By Tilt1 votes

{quoted}

AP is kinda a weird area. With AD itemization, you have so much variation between Bruiser, Carry, AD caster, that their ends up with a lot less cross pollination simply due to secondary stats. Yet with AP itemization, the only relevant damage stat out side of Raw ap is Mpen.

For that Reason, is why their is so much cross pollination between AP Assassin and mage. Which is why Mages could build Assassin items and become Assassin themselves. And this is the reason why we lost DFG. Though if I understood Riots opinion on the matter, the fact that they cross polinate so much, means that they can balance the Assassins around the build and not the other way around. (Basically saying that AP Assassins don't actually need items tailored to them)

Though if AP Assassins were to get more items specifically for them, I'd imagine it would be more a Utility that an Assassin would want and a mage wouldn't. Otherwise, we will end up with the same problem that DFG had.

could always make it melee only. most assassins are melee except leblanc

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ganked By Tilt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uATEvaap,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T16:21:31.173+0000)

could always make it melee only. most assassins are melee except leblanc

We both know how reluctant Riot is with using that tag. And that would also include Ahri, or any other possible mage/Assassin hybrid.

And again, An AP Assassins Kit and Numbers, can be balanced around the current itemization available. So their really isn't much of a reason to make a specific item for AP Assassin, Unless their is a specific Utility that an Assassin would specifically want. (Like say, and AP version of Duskblade, for the likes of Akali and Eve. or maybe something with an MS active like what Ghost Blade has.)

Ganked By Tilt1 votes

{quoted}

We both know how reluctant Riot is with using that tag. And that would also include Ahri, or any other possible mage/Assassin hybrid.

And again, An AP Assassins Kit and Numbers, can be balanced around the current itemization available. So their really isn't much of a reason to make a specific item for AP Assassin, Unless their is a specific Utility that an Assassin would specifically want. (Like say, and AP version of Duskblade, for the likes of Akali and Eve. or maybe something with an MS active like what Ghost Blade has.)

They are currently balancing Bork for ranged/melee, they could do the same with new ap items. I just think ap champions desperately need more items, the ones we got last year didn't to too much honestly.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ganked By Tilt,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uATEvaap,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T17:01:03.388+0000)

They are currently balancing Bork for ranged/melee, they could do the same with new ap items. I just think ap champions desperately need more items, the ones we got last year didn't to too much honestly.

Well that's BotRK. And again, AD champions have drastically different dynamics when you consider ADC, Caster, and Bruiser. While for an AP champion, a Melee's reach and lack and AoE, can be made up with a higher AP ratio, and you could pretty much leave it at that.

I mean, instead of Assassin items. (Or generally speaking, AP glass cannon items.) I would rather see more items geared towards Bruisers and Juggernauts, who scale with AP. Cause so far, the only real good item for that is Crystal Scepter. (Maybe RoA if their Mana reliant.)

Zerenza1 votes

The reason i want to see it is as you said, many AP assassins don't have access to the utility that AD assassins do. While most AP assassins do scale better than AD ones (Katarina, Kassadin, Akali all scale better than say Talon or Zed.) that doesn't make up for the fact that AP Assassins and Mages build nearly exactly the same, meaning that they all have the same item utility but the assassin offer's nothing outside of damage so why ever pick one over a mage. It would be nice to get fighter,assassin and juggernaut items for AP as well but mages would probably abuse those unless you do something like the new BoRK or Hydra item line(but riot hates doing that).

In addition, one assassin was actually supposed to be a fighter, but due to the fact that there aren't any items she could build to make her a good fighter, she's an assassin now. That champion is DIana.

Ultimately getting a Duskblade AP version(or old duskblade AP version) would be nice, maybe even an AP Youmu's. I'd argue that DFG would be nice to bring back if it were considerably changed and geared towards Melee champions by making the burn damage half or something on ranged champions.

Also you make a point about the Dynamic of AD champions being different, containing many different champions with different roles. Well could it be that the reason AD champions are so diverse in roles is because the item pool is as well?

Erockandroll1 votes

I think there's more to the abuse case than just the "Melee vs Ranged" argument. It would also be a harder metric to measure for AP because a lot more Melee AP have ranged abilities. And another reason why they may not be so keen on using the "melee only" tag, are the hybrid champions like Nid and Elise.

Actually when I think about it, the concept of an AP Bruiser may be flawed. Simply when I think Bruiser, I think of a champ who builds one or two offensive items max. Could you even make someone who can get the damage they need, from just one or two AP items? Cause the closest example may actually be tanks, who (in top lane) buy a few Doran's rings for base damage and mana, while building tanky. or (in Jungle), start with Runic Echo to solve their camp clear and mana problem.

Cause if you set their AP ratio's too high, they will better serve as assassins, and if you set their AP ratio's too low, what's the point in building AP? I also bring this up because of the likes of Fizz and Ekko, who can serve as Bruisers building no AP at all, and still function well. And people just complain about that too, that these champs can build TF/BotRK and perform the function of a bruiser. But this in mind, I don't consider those items to be AD items specifically. You mainly get TF for it's sheen proc, and BotRK for it's %HP shred, and that's all on hit damage. But that aside, if we did come up with an AP Bruiser item, Fizz and Ekko, could pick that up and still serve the Bruiser role, (possibly better than with TF) and people will still complain about, which brings us back to the point that it's more than a Melee vs range issue.

To answer your final point, in the olden day, (before my joining) AD was supposedly an AA exclusive stat. While all abilities had AP ratios, even if the champ didn't build AP. (And I think this is where a lot of the weird AP off builds showed up) Of coarse that eventually changed, (I think starting with pantheon) and AD ratios started showing up on abilities. But that in mind, Cross pollination didn't happen to the same extent in the other direction. (I think maybe Kayle, Teemo, Diana, have AP tied to an Auto attack.) But that in mind, I believe that new items were made available as the need arised, instead of the other way around.

Escheton1 votes

item 3285 item 3152 item 3100 item 3135 There, AP assassin items. item 3030 if the kit doesn't have cc.

Shablagoo1 votes

Its funny cuz even with this lack of customization ap assassins are for the most part doing better then ad assassins.

AL0001 votes

what is there no ap item for assassin?!?!?

this is new to me! I thought riot never create ap assassin.

zaire901 votes

?? Kat, leblanc and akali to name a few there really isnt alot of them but they have made some

AL0001 votes

you failed to see my point... there is NO ap item for assassin... why? Riot believes ap assassin is mage.

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