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What if Tiamat built into an AP item?

Zerenza··78 votes·5,098 views

Reason: There are plenty of Melee AP champions that are either top, mid or jungle who don't have the ability to clear waves like their AD counterparts. This often makes them not very good because they can't CS against ranged opponents.

Champions: Mid Katarina Ekko Diana Akali Fizz (love how no one pointed out that i forgot fizz XD) Kassadin

Champions: Top Chogath Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser

(Note: For the top laner's most of them are cursed to constantly buy Rod of Ages then full tank, never having an alternative build path.)

Champions: Jungle Evelynn Nidalee Elise Sejuani

What i'd like to see is tiamat be able to be built into a new item that might be something like this.

MELEE ONLY ITEM FOR THOSE THAT CAN"T READ!

Chaotic Hydra: 3600 G (Melee Only) FOR THE ONES THAT MISSED IT, IT"S RIGHT HERE MELEE ONLY!!! XD

Build Path item 3077 item 3145 item 1026 +550 gold

Stats 80 AP 30 AD

Unique Passive: Instantly heal for 10% of all magical damage delt. This is 33% effective for area of effect damage. (same passive as Hextech Gunblade)

Unique Passive - Cleave: Basic attacks deal 5 (+10% AD)(+20%) Magic damage in a line behind the target (450 range) [procs as quickly as titanics](Cannot stack on-hit damage with Spellblade, Wit's End or Nashor's Tooth.)

Unique Active - Crescent: The next basic attack is enhanced, causing it to fire a bolt behind the target, that explodes upon reaching max range or hitting the next target dealing 10(+2*level)(+20% AD)(+25% AP). [550 range maybe?]

Tell me what you think in the comments bellow, might be a bit busted but those are things that can be fixed.

Edit: Noted unintended user would be Jax, idk if this would break him or not. Another one is probably Alistar and Blitzcrank, i think thresh has AP scalings too but i'm fairly sure this item wouldn't break them in a solo lane. Another one is Shaco who similar to Jax could build both AD and AP.

Second Edit: Added Sejuanni and Mordekaiser

Edit three: Lower the AP ratio's, they were too high, i was basing them off of ravenous hydra.

Edit Four: The reason there is no AD in the final build is quite simple, i didn't want the item to be a go to for Jax or other Hybrid champions to abuse it. I did it on purpose.

Edit five: Removed the Mana and added health regeneration(against my will.) Added fizz, cause i forgot you buddy.

Edit six: Added the AD back in and gave it a bit more so it's more gold efficient, changed the passive and actives to be different from Titanic Hydra and Ravenous Hydra.

Edit Seven: Removed the health regen.

152 Comments

Kirius Dark10 votes

Mages usually have waveclear from their abilities already. A way to punish them is to shove waves so they need to use mana and abilities to clear the wave. Letting just auto it instead will make them way too strong w massive sustain

Tiamat is only AD as well so if they opt for the AP Tier 3 version of it they're going to be screwing up their early-mid game pathing by getting an item that does very little for them

Zerenza8 votes

Katarina and Akali both have AD scalings that are pretty damned good, infact it's more efficient on katarina to start with AD runes because her base scalings in AD are better than AP until about level 11.

The only time the item would be flat out bad to buy is on champs that have no AD scalings at all and don't auto attack and for mid lane there are none. For top lane it's different, i only listed them because they CAN build it not because it was intended for them.

BoilTheOil8 votes

well thats why it says melee only

agbudar9 votes

idk were did all the ad go?

Zerenza4 votes

I removed it so it wouldn't be a hybrid item and end up being abused by unintended user's like Jax.

agbudar2 votes

then honestly it needs to be build from a completely different item.

so i would say instead build it from a item 3145 and combine it with either a item 3113 or item 3108 and give it some aa aoe

Zerenza4 votes

The only reason i said Tiamat is so people would understand the items purpose, the intended use and it's implications on the game state. If i said it build from Aether Whip i'd probably get the same number of people telling me to build it from tiamat.

10110011100035 votes

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of making it build out of Tiamat?

Very rarely do items build into something that loses its stats.

eyes item 3124 suspiciously

Zerenza6 votes

Again, i did it to make sure it isn't abused by other champions that the item isn't intended for. I then made up for it by giving it more AP than it would have if i just kept the stats all together and in addition, it does do AOE AP damage along with have 10% spellvamp basically soooooo yeaaaah.

Rageblade gets it's attack speed back i think next patch?

10110011100010 votes

item 3077 only has 20 AD alone, that really isn't enough to make it an abusable hybrid item.

Not to mention this item actually loses AP overall as well. Both item 3145 and item 1026 give a total of 80 AP, yet this item drops 5 out of nowhere. You're dropping this item's statistical gold efficiency in a bid to make it balanced around its passive, but GOOD final items are typically (at least) 100% gold efficient through stats alone.

An easy comparison is item 3146, which grants 40 AD, 80 AP, 15% lifesteal and 15% spellvamp (in terms of raw stats). It builds out of item 3144 and item 3145, which give only 25 AD with 15% lifesteal and 40 AP, respectively. Gunblade is effectively 121% Gold efficient when looked at through these raw stats only, and that's ignoring the fact that the item actually ADDS more AD to its repertoire when finished.

item 3074 is only about 95% Gold efficient in raw stats alone, but its persistent AoE passive and active easily put it over the top in gold efficiency overall. Not to mention the fact that lifesteal applies to the AoE damage (albeit at half effectiveness), meaning that gold efficiency isn't an issue from the get-go.

item 3748 is a unique case, being less than 80% gold efficient in raw stats alone. In fact, it's missing exactly 775 gold to be considered 100 gold efficient. Since its passive has a persistent on-hit component separate from its conical damage component, the on-hit damage would only need to make up for 775 gold in stats to make Titanic Hydra worth building in gold value alone. When calculating that the equivocal gold value of 1 on-hit damage is 25 gold (based on Recurve Bow value), one can calculate that the on-hit portion of Titanic needs to only deal 31 extra damage on-hit to be 100% gold efficient with the conical passive or active damage. With a base on-hit portion of 5, that means you need 2600+ health to make Titanic Hydra gold efficient on your champion. Since Titanic Hydra is gated to precisely be a tank item, and since the item comes with 450 Health already, you need about 2100 health (base health + runes + masteries + items) to make this item gold efficient in raw stats (a full build).

Arguing strictly in terms of gold efficiency for your item, the raw stats would need to add up to 3600 gold.

75 AP = 1631.25 Gold 100% HP Regen = 300 Gold 10% Lifesteal = 375 Gold 10% Spell Vamp = 275 Gold (formerly gold value)

A grand total of 2581.25 Gold in stats, or 71.7% gold efficient. The scaling single-target on-hit portion of this item's cleave (the 10% AP scaling) would have to be dealing over 1000 Gold in damage to make this item break even as a stat stick alone. That would require approximately 400 AP on your champion, or effectively a near full build, just like Titanic.

Considering how massively expensive it is, and how you want this item to be a VIABLE option for melee AP champions, you'd quite frankly need more in terms of raw stats just to make this worth it. I'm more inclined to build Hextech Gunblade with Nashor's Tooth at this point, simply because both those items individually, and in combination, provide A LOT more value per gold spent than this would with Nashor's Tooth. Consider that melee AP champions do not necessarily have the option of building every single 100 AP item available (and even then, Rylai's is dropping to 75 AP), meaning, more often than not, AP melees won't consistently reach this threshold like tanks and bruisers would with Ravenous Hydra.

Some fundamental changes I would look into for making this item fall more in line with expected gold value (and making it more attractive overall):

  • Give this item Tiamat's AD. There's no reason to remove a measly 700 Gold's worth of stats that won't significantly benefit hybrid champions any more than Gunblade does.
  • Either make this item give 80 AP outright or dump Blasting Wand and replace it with Amplifying Tome. There's no reason this item should lose BOTH AD and AP for its passives. Adjust AP values if you decide to go Amplifying route.
  • Don't try mixing up the Hydra abilities up. The reason Titanic has a conical damage effect in both its active and passive is for cohesion and simplicity, vice versa for Ravenous. We don't need to see an item that does both conical damage and player-centered active damage for no inherent reason. Having its passive and active more reflect Ravenous Hydra's design seems much for fitting for a pure damage-scaling Hydra item
Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Uhmmm 2100 HP, isn't a full build, it's Kog's base hp at lvl18

1011001110002 votes

Is it really necessary to get anal about my wording when I was proving a point? You didn't even comment on the rest of the huge ass fuckin' wall of text here, you decide "hey, this guy looks like he said something wrong here, I'll point it out and be all smug about it."

And for your information, no, I did not mean that a full build is required to make Titanic Hydra gold efficient, but that a full build will almost always lead to a gold efficient Titanic Hydra.

Get the fuck out of here with your pretentious one-liners, especially if they aren't going to provide substance to the discussion at hand.

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Holy shit how aggressive, I just gave you info. I'm on your side... Titanic is efficient much earlier than full build, which further means that this one should as well.

Erractic Eick1 votes

As a Jax main, you're right. I would buy the shit out of that item, and the synergy it would have would have with the rest of my build would be ungodly. You're also right about the Rageblade buff eyes patch notes with watering mouth.

But I appreciate the thought you put into all of this! Don't get discouraged by naysayers.

morris11 votes

item 3124 got its attack speed back in the latest patch.

1011001110001 votes

That doesn't mean I'll stop eyeing it suspiciously.

The Letter H1 votes

Guinsoos got it's attackspeed back!

Big Lincoln6 votes

why is it cheaper than other hydra items

scales too well, would be extremely broken burst with lich bane as well

Sahn Uzal7 votes

^ It should share the passive name with Lichbane so you can't stack the 2. Lichbane for single target burst, This thingy for AoE damage

Zerenza3 votes

Yeah but it also has to share Titanic hydra's passive name so you can't stack the 2, though it probably wouldn't be an issue i will change it.

Votable Jester4 votes

Lichbane's is called spellblade, which functions significantly differently. While the two would be pretty strong together, I think you'd need another way of solving this issue.

If we went the way you suggest, this would need to build from Sheen, and the passive cleave would be kinda bizarre (though I suppose possible) along with the change from an item active to a sheen proc (which while somewhat similar, have unique, helpful differences).

Sahn Uzal4 votes

item 3145 Items have actives with different names, but they still share the same cooldown, for example :P

Dabrick015 votes

I think this is a good idea, the cleave might be a bit much since fed mages get upwards of 500 AP - 1000AP by late game. Also the Mana Just comes out of nowhere. Maybe no mana and a bit of HP and Regen.

I would like the idea of another tanky AP item since item 3116 is getting a massive change. Although the spell vamp is what they were trying to get away from.

I can't see a few of these champs, like Katarina or any of the JGs that you mentioned, using it. Giving this to Ekko is just begging for Takko to come back.

Also give it a cool concept name, like Ferocious Hydra.

Speedphoenix5 votes

call it hextech hydra man and make sure you say it's melee only

Zero Skill Tank4 votes

Meh. Most of those champions either have this covered by having great waveclear abilities, or it's their intended weakness.

Zerenza1 votes

I find the ranged match up with all of those champions to be really infuriating (exceptions of course being the junger's and cho'gath) you usually get zoned away from atleast 3 CS a wave unless you go full ham at level 1 or 2 and some mages are just better in the early(that's intended of course). Melee champs with similar kits can have Titanic and Ravenous hydra but AP Melee are stuck building items intended for mages and not for melee's.

Sire Hippington7 votes

You know that this happens on AD melees aswell, don't you? Because you don't start with hydra and even if, you'd still need to get into melee range to use it!

Melee vs ranged matchups always suck for the melee unless they have a RANGED farming tool, or enough all-in potential that they can zone the ranged toll the wave is clear.

Shadow Hazard4 votes

I think there is good room to make something like this happen

ShinkoMinori3 votes

Silver 5 0 LP

Kaioko7 votes

{quoted}

Silver 5 0 LP

Only gold V and you're making that comment? I for one don't think it's a bad idea - would need to watch out for the ratio on the active and not allow the 15% to stack with Nashor's though.

Lord Galvatron2 votes

Well, he did prove that you can be any rank and still be a moron.

Primaquarius15 votes

Because you need to be Challenger to have an innovative idea...LUL kids these days

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

Ekko's Q is great for waveclearing. It generally takes ~2 casts to clear the entire wave, which can be easily sustained with two Doran's Rings. Diana's Q, W and passive also provide great waveclear.

Cho'gath's waveclear is fine. His Q and W are both AoE with high base damage and his E provides waveclear for no mana cost.

Malphite and Maokai generally rush Sunfire Cape and have an AoE ability good for waveclearing (Malphite's E and W, Maokai's Q).

Evelynn's Q lets her clear waves pretty quickly when positioned properly.

Quite frankly, you seem to be missing that not being able to clear waves from a distance is an intended limitation for some champions' kits.

Also, you are outright removing the AD and health regeneration provided by Tiamat when you upgrade it.

Akenero3 votes

Gragas Ivern Galio Nunu Maokai Shaco TahmKench Singed And the aoe effect should differ from titanic or ravenous, something like a line projectile that comes out when you auto, and a larger projectile during the active, also, a good name for it would be "Enchanted Hydra" imo

Sire Hippington3 votes

Because nearly all ap champs do have good waveclear already? From the champs you listed, only elsie has a somewhat bad waveclear, and even she can atleast clear ranged minions wIth her W.

That said, I'm not opposed to an new ad/ap hybrid item, and building from tiamat is tempting, but more for giving more build options on hybrid scaleing champs rather than beeing a waveclear option for APs

Zerenza2 votes

Melee Ap's, i litterally put Melee Only next to the item name XD

S H A Y C 02 votes

Ok so...yeah theres a bit wrong here, ill do my best.

Champion X or XYZ has one shortfall - This is by design to make them unique. Assassins are for one thing, blowing up people...why should they have great wave clear and assassination potential? Wouldnt that make the premier wave clear mages pointless? They have that as their one thing.

Second issue - the gimme wave clear i dont have it item for mages is item 3285 Why for you need another one?

Ok so you need another one that has an active item 3152 Free dash with every purchase of this waveclear item.

Happy assasi-bruisa-clearing

Zerenza1 votes

Because Luden's Echo is balanced around OTHER mages not Melee ones, that means that if mages start abusing it, it gets nerfed and assassins don't have a fall back unlike wave clear mages.

For many assassin mid laner's such as Zed and Talon who already have great wave clear, also buy tiamat for extra wave clear so they can roam. It's the job of an assasssin to push in their lane/kill their opponent and then roam but for AP assassins in the mid lane this is extremely hard and sometimes downright impossible. You can't clear waves against many opponents effectively because they'll simply zone you off so you basically become useless until either you get a gank or mid game starts and you can finally leave your lane.

S H A Y C 01 votes

melee assassins only get zoned off by ranged champions...if you dont know how to play the melee vs ranged matchup, your issue is not a handout item from riot.

you have to all in the ranged champion and get control of your lane...those ranged guys zoning you have a weakness and surprisingly enough that weakness is you..the all in melee assassin.

you dont need items, you need practice and education.

Zerenza2 votes

It's to risky, most assassins cannot all in until level 3 and by then the enemy mage has already poked you down to half health with unavoidable auto attacks. If you try and all in an opponent who's higher health than you, you'll most likely die unless the opponent is simply a worse player than you are overall.

It promotes the feast or famine aspect of assassins that riots trying to remove.

And to be fair i think you should actually go play mid lane as an assassin instead of being an ADC/Jungle main and assuming you know what it's like to fight in a ranged VS melee match up. You should probably educate yourself a little more before ordering someone else to based off of little to no experience in the same position.

Sup im Carrier2 votes

[deleted]

Zerenza2 votes

It's there, litterally right next to the name of the item XD Maybe the other's missed it to so i should put it in bigger letters.

Karn Bishop2 votes

So long as there is a specific note saying that rumble cannot buy or use this item i would approve of it.

LXII2 votes

"Please give AP's more things that make being Melee AD bearable"

This really needs to stop. There is no reason at all that any of those champs need a Hydra item on top of their current kits.

Backup4now2 votes

A few notes: revolver + blasting wand is 80 AP. Tiamat is 20 AD. Combining this item loses stats, which is a nono. Having 20 ad 80 ap wouldn't hurt the item at all.

Thresh is ranged. He cannot purchase it (you mention this in edit 1).

Sejuani, Nidalee, Mordekaiser, ChoGath, and Ekko have just fine waveclear. Of those that need it to 'face ranged characters', they need RANGED waveclear. What the hell is the purpose of melee waveclear in a melee vs ranged matchup? The build path is also kind of bad for facing a range character; by the time you can afford it, the lane's already been decided. Tiamat isn't a good early item for melee mages due to the whole not-having-AD thing.

The active and passive don't make sense for ap characters, and are actually fairly shitty for a 3600 item. You want them to get in the center of the wave to waveclear early on when they don't have much ad to deal damage (tiamat), then it doesn't get any better in the completed version since it only does 20% ap (you have 80 ap, =16 aoe damage at this point. Talk about poopy-caca. Should at least have a base value, or +60% ad or something for a base).

Additionally, it builds out of a revolver, which means it should have a 'shared cooldown' hextech-like effect. Remember those changes? Something more bursty on a 40 second cooldown.

" (cannot stack with nashor's tooth, wits end or spellblade.)" Why? This isn't going to be abusable, since it's melee only. No melee character gets that combination of melee items and lives to tell the tale. The only one would be Kayle, but she's ranged during her E. So it wouldn't work at all.

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

Cho is actually a monster at clearing, as well as poking while he farms thanks to his E

Muddafragot2 votes

Sorry, what? Why are Chogath Ekko Akali and Evelynn on this list? Cho has spikes for days, Ekko has spinny discs for days, Eve has spikes for days, and Akali has free spinny blades for days, you're doing something wrong if you're not getting cs or clearing waves with them.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Why are you removing the health regen? Tiamat has Health Regen. Why take it away?

Rogue Blitzwolf2 votes

Um Cho' Gath has his e for wavevlear

JC DarkOmen2 votes

The AP version of Tiamat is called Luden's Echo

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