Why aren't more items Melee only.

Zerenza·Nov 22, 2016·78 votes·3,792 views

Youmu's, Steraks Gage, Black Clever, Duskblade, Edge of Night the list goes on.

Why aren't these items melee only? The reason for a lot of game health issues last season was because of Youmu's, BC and Duskblade being able to be build on ranged champs, the reason for steraks last pre season being nerfed was because of ranged champions, edge of night is just asking to be built on them one day so why even let them be built on everything.

Just make them melee only and then introduce new ranged only items, problem solved.

Edit: The reason for adding new ranged items would be for the champs that don't abuse the melee bruiser items but still needed them like Quinn, Graves or Urgot(even though he's kind of forgoten and will get reworked eventually it's still worth it to note he used Black Clever)

107 Comments

AnonagonNov 22, 201616 votes

I know people on here are very attached to the idea of making more items melee only, but I don't think that's a proper solution to most problems. Most items that people would want to make melee-only have some ranged user who needs it as a core item, and those champions aren't normally the "abusers" people always complain about.

Should Urgot not be able to buy item 3071 because someone else is too strong with it? Because that's really what changing items to melee-only does. It screws over the Urgots of the world, and reduces potential build diversity for others.

If you make all the Lethality items melee-only, you basically say that all future AD Assassins must be melee, which is terrible because there's already a ranged AD Assassin ( Quinn )

There are solutions to these problems that don't involve making the items melee-only. For example, with item 3053 , they could simply make the shield scale with bonus health instead of maximum health, reducing its effectiveness severely for ADCs.

redniwediSNov 22, 20162 votes

Personally I view this as a larger problem with item balance. The problem is that ranged champions are balanced around items that are supposed to be primarily for melee champions. Rebalance the ranged champions, or offer them an alternative that better fits their needs.

ZerenzaNov 22, 20162 votes

Agreed, if ranged champs had items that fit their needs better than BC or Steraks they wouldn't want to buy them.

It would be great if we got ranged items that gave quinn what she needed without letting other champs abuse it, so a ranged only item for bruiser type ranged champions like quinn (bruiser type ranged champs include Kindred, Graves and Quinn) would be a nice addition and wouldn't ruin itemization for them but would prevent the melee bruiser items from having to be balanced around ADC's abuse of them.

Guyy FieriNov 22, 20169 votes

Quinn and Kindred are not bruisers lol. Gnar would be a better example anyway.

ZerenzaNov 22, 20161 votes

Build paths dude, build paths, they build bruiser items and prefer it over ADC items so their bruiser's.

Gnar is an enigma, he's both ranged and melee, he could probably be an exception to the rule, similar to how Nidalee,Jayce,Elise and other's can build the hydra items despite being both melee and ranged.

AnonagonNov 22, 20166 votes

They don't. Quinn, Kindred, and Graves all literally build full damage, or a single defensive item. Just because it's not a 100% crit build doesn't mean it's "bruiser build".

ZerenzaNov 22, 20161 votes

Full Damage Sounds pretty close to bruiser to me but you do you buddy.

NuparuNov 22, 201611 votes

A Bruiser build is literally two (at most) offensive items and three to four defensive items.

????

AnonagonNov 22, 20169 votes

Bruiser is half damage half defense. I don't know how you don't know that.

AstôlfoNov 22, 20168 votes

Ranged should never ever be bruisers.

AnonagonNov 22, 20164 votes

While I don't think any existing ranged champion has really ever been healthy when played as a bruiser, I wouldn't say that there couldn't ever be one. It's an interesting design space that hasn't been really explored much, and I think if a champion was designed from the ground up around being a ranged bruiser I think it could work. Of course, if Riot tries it out and decides to scrap it because it turns into cancer, I could understand.

AstôlfoNov 22, 20165 votes

It is inherently unhealthy. The trade off of range is that you get the ability to perma-kite (outside of ridiculously fast/CC-immune champions like Yi/Olaf/etc) with enough skill. The downside is you're squishy, aka, you die near instantly if you get caught. Which is perfectly fine and balanced. If you want durability, then play someone who's a durable champion. AKA, melee.

AnonagonNov 23, 20165 votes

The thing is that there are already champions who break this dynamic - mostly characters like Swain and Vlad who have superb defense and sustain despite being ranged damage threats. In reality ranged Bruisers already exist, they're just all mages

Glory ln DeathNov 23, 20162 votes

Urgot seems pretty well designed to be a ranged bruiser - damage dealer who can also build fairly tanky.

Spaceman5pffNov 23, 20163 votes

GOTTA AurelionSol LOVE Gnar THEM Graves SQUISHY Swain RANGED Vladimir CHAMPS Urgot

NOT SAYING THESE GUYS ARE BUSTED OR OP. JUST SAYING THAT ABOVE COMMENT MIGHT NOT HAVE THOUGHT THROUGH THEIR STATEMENT.

AstôlfoNov 23, 20161 votes

The point is they're not supposed to be tanky if they're ranged. Hence, why I said what I did.

Spaceman5pffNov 24, 20162 votes

Those guys are meant to be beefy though. They are meant to be able to take a hit and swing back. They are designed and balanced around that idea.

AstôlfoNov 24, 20161 votes

I'm saying that's a fucking horrible design concept.

Spaceman5pffNov 24, 20161 votes

[deleted]

AstôlfoNov 24, 20161 votes

And here we reach the extent of your paltry intelligence and skill at discussion.

Guyy FieriNov 22, 20163 votes

Just to help prove the guys point, Gnar loves Black Cleaver too, so why should he lose out on that item when it's perfect for his class.

AstôlfoNov 22, 20164 votes

I'm not sure if it applies, but if it applies on mini-Gnar's ranged autos, it is still abusive and cancerous and unintended.

Guyy FieriNov 22, 20166 votes

Oh nep2une, shoulda known you'd pipe in here....why is it abusive for Gnar, a bruiser by class, to use Black Cleaver? Nothing unintended about it, it's in the champs core items.

AstôlfoNov 22, 20164 votes

Ranged champions should never ever be able to apply any sort of armor mitigation except % armor penetration (which Last Whisper does), as LW and its evolutions are almost always one of the last items to be bought, AKA, effectively making ADCs weak against tanks until lategame where they are supposed to shine as a hypercarry.

It has nothing to do with being a bruiser. It is about him being ranged. Ranged makes it far easier to apply, not even counting the ability to permakite any enemy player (with the exclusion of Yi/Olaf/a few others) provided said kiting player is half intelligent. Also, resistance shred versus just penetration or ignorances specifically means that it is not only a boon to Gnar himself, but to every single other source of physical damage in that game.

DolasaurNov 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Ranged champions should never ever be able to apply any sort of armor mitigation except % armor penetration (which Last Whisper does), as LW and its evolutions are almost always one of the last items to be bought, AKA, effectively making ADCs weak against tanks until lategame where they are supposed to shine as a hypercarry.

It has nothing to do with being a bruiser. It is about him being ranged. Ranged makes it far easier to apply, not even counting the ability to permakite any enemy player (with the exclusion of Yi/Olaf/a few others) provided said kiting player is half intelligent. Also, resistance shred versus just penetration or ignorances specifically means that it is not only a boon to Gnar himself, but to every single other source of physical damage in that game.

What specifically about armor reduction makes it unhealthy on ranged champions? Much of what you say here could easily be trivially adapted to apply to CC in general. But even more directly, there are ranged AA champions that already apply %reduction as part of their kits (Urgot, Kog'Maw, Jayce, Kayle), and two of those are applied on AAs (albeit short range for ranged AAs). In addition to the fact that ranged champions can buy Black Cleaver, it means Riot doesn't think it's inherently bad. And Riot also isn't opposed to general damage amps that are not restricted to specific champions (see Abyssal Scepter and Expose Weakness mastery off the top of my head).

ZerenzaNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What specifically about armor reduction makes it unhealthy on ranged champions? Much of what you say here could easily be trivially adapted to apply to CC in general. But even more directly, there are ranged AA champions that already apply %reduction as part of their kits (Urgot, Kog'Maw, Jayce, Kayle), and two of those are applied on AAs (albeit short range for ranged AAs). In addition to the fact that ranged champions can buy Black Cleaver, it means Riot doesn't think it's inherently bad. And Riot also isn't opposed to general damage amps that are not restricted to specific champions (see Abyssal Scepter and Expose Weakness mastery off the top of my head).

ADC's build the highest damage in the game, they deal the highest overall damage in most games unless a mage like brand is in the game. So your telling me that an ADC can deal 1300+ damage with a single auto at 45% armor pen or more? Where's the counterplay? Wtf is a tank if ADC's just shred through your armor like butter and kill you with 4 autos. On ranged champions it's also MUCH easier to apply armor reduction from black clever or other items just due to the fact that you don't have to be within range of the other person to do the same thing that any melee champ with BC does.

Spaceman5pffNov 24, 20162 votes

For someone who bitches and moans about Black Cleaver, you sure seem to know jack shit about it.

UNIQUE: Dealing physical damage to an enemy champion Cleaves them, reducing their armor by 5% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 6 times for a maximum of 30%.

Unless Mini Gnar deals 100% Magic Damage on autos, rather than physical, then it applies.

Nami in BushNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I know people on here are very attached to the idea of making more items melee only, but I don't think that's a proper solution to most problems. Most items that people would want to make melee-only have some ranged user who needs it as a core item, and those champions aren't normally the "abusers" people always complain about.

Should not be able to buy because someone else is too strong with it? Because that's really what changing items to melee-only does. It screws over the Urgots of the world, and reduces potential build diversity for others.

If you make all the Lethality items melee-only, you basically say that all future AD Assassins must be melee, which is terrible because there's already a ranged AD Assassin ( )

There are solutions to these problems that don't involve making the items melee-only. For example, with , they could simply make the shield scale with bonus health instead of maximum health, reducing its effectiveness severely for ADCs.

Yeah dont fuck with Urgod

hhaavviikkNov 22, 201610 votes

funnily enough it was said duskblade would be made melee only if ranged abused it yet that never happened

AstôlfoNov 23, 20161 votes

What are you talking about? Of course Riot's great at keeping their promi- oh wait.

Spaceman5pffNov 24, 20162 votes

To be fair, the issue was the armor penetration, not the execute passive.

The idea here is that the change to lethality should fix the ADC abuse issue.

On that note, I think Graves, Quinn would be unique examples to the rest of the marksman class as far as lethality goes.

HigeNov 22, 20169 votes

In essence, these items have a drawback for most ranged champs either way, for example: Youmuu's doesn't give attack speed anymore, so champions mainly use it for mobility, given that the Zeal items give mobility as well plus crit chance, adcs are technically better off buying a zeal than a youmuu's since it's far more slot efficient for the class as opposed to assassins who don't make much use of crit since their damage comes mostly from their skills.

Black cleaver is particularly good if you can stack it fast, for MF, Lucian and to an extent Corki it's quite good, for the rest not so much, if you find a Caitlyn with a BC you KNOW she's missing on a lot of other valuable stats and she's technically behind because of not building optimally

Duskblade has found it's way into a lot of ADCs but it's probably because of the initial stats, the passive can only be procced by Vayne and Twitch so I don't know why people still build it on MF, Lucian and Jhin, probably because of the lethality, but I think in this case it's a legacy thing and people haven't found a item that fills that early power spike since Duskblade is the cheapest BF sword item, I believe.

ZerenzaNov 22, 20164 votes

Yeah but what gets to me is that they basically nerfed Youmu's (took away the AS) because ranged champs abuse it, instead of actually making it a bruiser item they just made it an awful buy for the people who it's intended for. All they litterally had to do was just make it melee only, boom problem solved. (youmu's can be a bit over tuned though but in most cases it was with champs like Graves, Twitch or Quinn not champions such as Talon, Pantheon or Riven. It was strong but nowhere near as strong as on ranged champs.)

HigeNov 22, 20167 votes

I mean I think it was a classy change that kept the item open, in all honesty I do understand that assassins can use the extra AS but it being gone on the item isn't such a big deal, talon for example has such AD scaling that building any AS on him is probably detrimental, one more autoattack could mean death even with 2.5 attack speed...

in the end I believe Riot wants to drive Assassins away from autoattacking and more focused on abilities and stealth/mobility reposition, take Zed for example, his autos HURT because of his passive but in reality you can barely land 1 autoattack before you run away, if that number increases to 2 autoattacks then his damage would start to be unbearable.

Making items Melee only is effective too definitely but statistically, enforcing metas and gamestyles creates dissatisfaction among players, leaving the grounds open for experimentation though keeps the game interesting and fun IMO.

ZerenzaNov 22, 20163 votes

Which is the reason talon needs to get off an auto in his combo to proc his passive....in all honesty people should just deal with it. All riot has to do is add more ranged items into the game (there aren't that many tbh) that aid them MORE than the bruiser items and everyone would be happy, well most people because we all know someone is gonna complain.

An assassin getting in a needed extra auto that isn't due to a bug(looking at you yasuo) and is due to itemization is completely fine considering the amount power an ADC has over an assassin, many times an ADC will get away with one auto's worth of health without burning flash or heal simply because the assassin didn't have enough damage or AA speed to deal with their lifesteal and massive DPS.

I think youmu's attack speed buff was only OP or unbearable on Ranged champions and the champs that would use it if was melee only could really use the extra attack speed buff.

Not to mention when they tried to make youmus a mini panth passive but it was still abused so they returned it, i thought that would have been amazing considering how many times i'v been one shot by an ADC with a single auto.

RyuyahNov 24, 20161 votes

no one seems to play Ashe with item 3071 (which imo is pretty strong)

what about item 3147 Quinn

Tik115Nov 23, 20166 votes

Something about "Diversity" in item builds

Which only results in certain champions abusing certain items getting said items nerfed to the point where the class the items were made for don't wanna use them ether (RIP item 3053 )

Seriously Riot needs to give up on the whole diversity with item builds since it results in melee classes getting screwed over, Besides is an ADC gonna have a heart attack because things like Maw becomes melee only? all it would do is make them build a pure defensive item last instead like they use to AND the preseason changes made them even tankier with support stuff and the new locket

or if they're so hell bent about diversity then go ahead and make the Hydras and Rurrans passives work for everybody, see how well that goes for them

EgillionNov 23, 20163 votes

Because ADC players and marksmen represent a huge part of the player base and they are well known as a cry-baby community... =[

A LiberalNov 23, 20161 votes

I feel like marksman mains have a bit of entitlement since they are required literally EVERY game and can play literally EVERY role.

Note: Yeah I know marksman supports aren't the best or very common but support Ashe , MissFortune , Kalista , Jhin , and Caitlyn are all off-meta things.

ManiacalCoyoteNov 23, 20161 votes

Are they required? Couldn't we have an LCS game where neither team used marksmen?

A LiberalNov 23, 20161 votes

I don't watch LCS so I wouldn't know. In any case, I've been playing since season 3 and never once in that time have I ever seen a meta where a marksman wasn't on a team every game.