Boards›Gameplay

If Vi is going to be less burst-focused, she'll need better sticking power

Moody P··28 votes·12,913 views

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DxkP15SVYAAswAS.jpg

In regards to these changes. I'd like to start by saying I'm very happy with the direction as someone who enjoys very bulky fighters and seeing Vi returning to that direction after a few years of being an assassin. The buffs to her durability, base damage, and utility are massive boons and I think she might actually be too strong in that respect, as she has insane displacement potential. Further, the passive changes make her able to clear objectives with high health; the Denting Blows new effect of making shield come up quicker lets her maintain a high HP pool for safely taking Dragons early on.

However, I've run into this problem frequently on PBE that I just can't seem to stick to people to make this more back-loaded damage really work out. Because Vi's only means of keeping on people is a delayed, channeled spell that also slows herself down, when Vi isn't murdering you close to instantly before you can actually move from her CC comboing, it's a little too easy to get away from her.

I won't say I fully understand the scope of these changes and she might end up so strong that me asking for this is completely unreasonable, but I really think an added bit of sticking power somewhere in her kit would really make this direction come together. Nothing enormous, but, say.. a small speed-up every time Denting Blows is proc'd, or a micro-slow on her E akin to Trundle's Chomp, would make this kit mesh a lot better at doing the job you want it to.

I'm eager to see how this iteration of Vi plays out. It'd be a refreshing change to see her hit the meta again.

61 Comments

Noor Sakata7 votes

I'm impressed to see you posting a completely not Biased thread " actually a small bias "

But yeah ,Vi's problem is being too much Red Buff and Items reliant She just can't stick to enemies while playing her tanky therefrom it makes her a really bad fighter , it feels she should become a skirmisher to be at a good spot tho

Salron7 votes

Still waiting for Vi to get a W active

Moody P5 votes

I don't think she needs one with these changes. She feels very good to play now and you can get very tanky with how often you can get your shield back up. It's a nice little synergy, and I think passives on abilities are an underexplored idea.

GrReaper965 votes

Doesnt have to be a big active. Think Varus W, but maybe a slow instead of more dmg

ERJAK3 votes

Completely changing this because I just noticed it went from BONUS AD to TOTAL AD on scaling and that's actually huge. Vi at level 16 with Triforce, Warrior Enchant, and Guardian angel(minus all other AD sources for simplicity) takes her Q damage from 518 before the change to 498.78 after. That's enough that some people will live who definitely would have died before but it's actually only a very small total damage decrease. A Q max level 16 Vi that only gets warrior enchant and builds tank and utility would have 406(-112 from Triforce+Guardian) damage now and would have 424.6 damage(-74.18 from Triforce+Guardian)

At level 4 with just the starting jungle item(a pretty typical first gank timing) assuming you have 2 points in Q and only the 6 bonus AD from runes the damage pre-change is 169.6 to 169.06.

My math may be wrong on these and I'm obviously not accounting for things like eyeball collector, electrocute, etc. But it seems like the damage loss is going to be relatively minor assuming similar levels of AD from items, and won't drop anywhere near as hard from building tanky. So it's not like you won't still be popping ADCs like water balloons if you build full AD, it's just that now you don't HAVE to build like that.

I like this a lot more now.

200220123 votes

Why would a champion that has an almost uncounterable point and click knockup and a dash with a knockup need more sticking power? She was never about bursting someone down, but strong early ganks and mid game consistency, combined with effortless, healthy clears.

Ionian Vulpix3 votes

If they're encouraging tankier builds, what about IBG instead of Triforce after Warrior? Q into someone, auto, get the AoE slow?

Sewer Side3 votes

Vi already has strong synergy with IBG, not sure why her kit needs more inherent stickiness.

Her Vault Breaker can be brought down to a 4-6 second CD by mid-game. That’s a lot of unrestricted movement she has.

Also, she’s not losing out on a lot of damage with the T-AD conversion, you can’t add damage and stickiness and think it’ll be balanced.

Moody P1 votes

Vi already has strong synergy with IBG

This doesn't exclude other divers from being given good sticking power. Like I said, I could be wrong and Vi might just default to Phase Rush or Glacial Augment to shore this up entirely. I can't get an accurate estimation of power on the PBE because of the skill discrepancy so I have to run on "feels" until it hits live.

Her Q is also a channeled spell and a fairly slow dash compared to what other Divers have. It also slows her down, so she has trouble sticking to people, particularly in larger teamfights where she can be body blocked and especially against anyone who can easily interrupt the Q.

Vi loses out on damage once you start building AD in the mid-game and she has less damage early on. The more AD you build the larger the gap gets between current and PBE Vi; the gap is shrunk or in PBE Vi's favor when you buy less AD, but she'd still be doing less than live because she has less AD.

ZaneShadow2 votes

My brother plays this champ and had a similar request. I mean, from the outside I’m just thinking item 3022 but I’m sure that people who play her know why that’s not a good idea.

Why isn’t that a good idea? My brothers terrible at explaining things

Moody P3 votes

It's not a bad idea, and it might become what you buy. We'll have to see, I guess.

ZaneShadow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u0p57ue9,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-01-26T01:28:11.585+0000)

It's not a bad idea, and it might become what you buy. We'll have to see, I guess.

So, also not a jungle main, would item 3706 chilling smite do the trick? Not sure if it’s reliable enough either though (I love theory crafting, so just bouncing around ideas).

Ifneth1 votes

Ehhh... Jungle is not a role for needing two whole items just to become a champ. Vi needs a little sticking power.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I think item 3022 should get a 10-12% passive movement speed buff because this item has been out of meta for so long and really this is going to be stupid item 3087 item 3094 another idea i have long since had was nerf the raptor cloak items by 5% but make the movement speed bonus stack able and possibly give the items better defensive stats item 3056 150 better health 100% hp5 item 3512 15 armor and 10 magic resist 50% hp5 rip banner of command maybe they dont need to remove the 5% movement speed after all and just make it stack able if not make it take the same amount of time to ramp up from 1 stack to the second stack instead of stacking both at the same time.

Infernape10 votes

You forget Gnar is a thing. He's the entire reason why that item is kept weak.

The Taco Kat4 votes

Don't forget about item 3078 item 3022 Yasuo. It's so incredibly unfun whenever that build is meta.

LordGeovanni1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/u0p57ue9-if-vi-is-going-to-be-less-burst-focused-shell-need-better-sticking-power?comment=0007000100000001 right below you

LordGeovanni1 votes

you guys are right. But fm needs to be a melee only item anyway. Gnar needs a mass gutting of his W (damage and movement speed) and E cooldown and distance for untranceformed. If anything for transform champions make the passive movemnt speed melee only. Yasou also needs a mass gutting they need to either remove his free shield or nerf his crit gain to 50% of the crit he gains is added on as extra crit

Tyler1hehexd12341 votes

Okay, I'm a gnar main, so I may be a bit biased. But wtf are you on about, yeah his W needs nerfs (obviously), but his e is fine. At max rank it's cooldown is 12 and at first level it's 22. Maybe lower the range a bit, but not the cooldown.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I dont think his melee Form E needs a longer cooldown but his ranged definitely does. I dont think that it should be just increased though but if mobility ever gets a general nerf to it then Mini Gnar e should be part of it. Just like Ezreal E needs a massively longer cooldown and Caitlyn E needs a massively longer cooldown Same with Talon R Zed R etc

DorkunedAuras1 votes

Whatever buffs you're advising for FM, remember that Gnar and Teemo abuse the everloving shit out of it.

LordGeovanni1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/u0p57ue9-if-vi-is-going-to-be-less-burst-focused-shell-need-better-sticking-power?comment=0007000100000001

right above you

Alzon2 votes

Try item 3116

Her E has a 90% AP ratio now, which can also crit. I want to try a top lane Vi build of item 3095 item 3111 item 3116 into CDR.

Tested Rylai’s interaction with E. E does apply spell effects in an AoE, despite the wiki not saying so.

ZaneShadow1 votes

{quoted}

Try item 3116

Her E has a 90% AP ratio now, which can also crit. I want to try a top lane Vi build of item 3095 item 3111 item 3116 into CDR.

Tested Rylai’s interaction with E. E does apply spell effects in an AoE, despite the wiki not saying so.

Hahaha, well, toplane that might work, but probabaly a more reliable top build would be

item 3078 item 3053 item 3742 item 3156 then choose between item 3748 item 3022 item 3026

I’m guessing the new standard jungle will look similar to this, which is close to what my brother builds now: item 1400 item 3078 item 3053 item 3742 item 3156

Fun little aside, while Yes, you don’t get both shields from the two lifelines, when Sterak’s Lifeline triggers, Maw’s bonus effect and stats also kicks in. Just a fun little combo.

Huh, actually, being able to crit 90% of your Ap then hit with your normal 90% a second latter might be good enough. That would be a 270% AP combo... That could be really fun! First ever viable crit AP build? Probably not but who knows! (Average burst mage will hit you with about 240% AP and roughly 1,000 base damage, letting them oneshot someone without mr)

item 3095 item 3152 item 3100 item 3089 item 3157

Jungle edition: item 1402 item 3095 item 3100 item 3089 item 3152

(Each has 30% cdr, so picking up 10% in runes should be simple enough so you can R-E pretty frequently. Also highly recommend Aftershock so you don’t get deleted and Overgrowth to make up for the low health items.)

BadPiriPiri2 votes

Hail of Blades Vi (because E now scales with attack speed) with the trinity, steraks and titanic hydra feels amazing to combo.

Check the post i made there : https://www.reddit.com/r/ViMains/comments/aj8cl3/leave_your_feedback_here_from_pbe_vi_changes/?st=jrdl71zw&sh=19a8aeaa

Alzon1 votes

I don’t think it’s that efficient, if Stormrazor’s reduced crit damage also applies to abilities that crit, like Gangplank’s Q/E. Although it doesn’t apply on-hit effects to secondary targets... Might want to test that, see if you need a crit item to get the full 200%. If you do, I’m thinking item 3094 with Fleet Footwork for stickiness.

Full build would look something like this: item 3095 item 3111 item 3116 item 3094 item 3100 item 3157

A rather cheap build that hits CDR cap with Transcendence and scaling CDR and does pretty solid mixed damage burst.

Or maybe item 3095 item 3111 item 3116 item 3065 item 3094 item 3110 as a more bruiser-ish build.

I’m still convinced that Stormrazor > Rylai’s is the best combination of two cheap powerspike items as a standard core for lane Vi. Critting every wave while dealing massive poke, into AoE slows with a huge increase in damage and some HP.

ZaneShadow1 votes

Hmmm, I hadn’t thought of that. Perhaps this then? At least for the jungle.

item 1402 item 1001 item 3095 item 3100 item 3031item 3146

The AP jungle item would replace Rylize for that really fast, inexpensive High AP item. Plus Chilling smite could act as the slow for the person you want to stick to.

With the Infinity Edge revert the same patch, it’s a great option if your snowballing (Statikk shiv otherwise).

Then I think Gunblade is just a lot of healing for all this damage, but the safety of Zhonyas is totally justifiable.

Alzon1 votes

For some reason, using IE as the crit item never crossed my mind. Amp up those 1,100 damage crits even more.

Also, first item Stormrazor on lane Vi is really solid. Oneshots the caster minions and half-healths the melees, plus the poke is insane even against ranged champions (Vi ADC OP btw).

Irelia Bot2 votes

Why bother. They are just going to nerf her to hell like Irelia and akali if she becomes seen as VIable.

Infernape2 votes

VIable

I don't know whether I should roll my eyes or applaud you lol

jocomotion2 votes

You’d be surprised what you could do with Approach velocity and red buff.

BadPiriPiri2 votes

To the OP and everyone here i made a reddit post on vi mains with some videos (E crit, stormrazor interaction, Bruiser combo (because E now scales with attackspeed, On hit vi, etc)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ViMains/comments/aj8cl3/leave_your_feedback_here_from_pbe_vi_changes/?st=jrdl71zw&sh=19a8aeaa

Sire Hippington1 votes

I think a decaying spped boost on her W procs would be the best solution, helps her to catch up after the somewhat lengthy E animation(atleast compared to normal AAs) and gives more stickiness without adding more CC. I think her Q and ult already give enough CC for a fighter, adding enough slow for stickiness would be a bit to much.

Moody P5 votes

I agree, especially with her R getting even better AOE CC on it on PBE, she'll be quite the force to be reckoned with. A speed-up would be a lot less oppressive, I think. Thanks.

TwinkiePro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=u0p57ue9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-26T00:08:02.247+0000)

I think a decaying spped boost on her W procs would be the best solution, helps her to catch up after the somewhat lengthy E animation(atleast compared to normal AAs) and gives more stickiness without adding more CC. I think her Q and ult already give enough CC for a fighter, adding enough slow for stickiness would be a bit to much.

I would argue against this specifically because she usually builds phage, but it may work. Maybe something more along the lines of the Slow on the Q becoming non existent and max rank W?

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I am surprised they choose to buff vi now O_O

I find that building normally on her while running aftershock is really strong, and while she does lack a bit in sticking power she usually tends to outright kill targets with her combo or at least get over most of that problem when she has boots+triforce +maxed out Q-

I wonder if those changes would make her a viable toplaner again?

Sire Hippington6 votes

unless they actually fix damage in the game a bit till that vi changes comes life, i'm not sure it's a buff. She's loosing quite a bit burst on her agressive builts and will have a harder time outright killing people with her combo if not ahead. Her tanky dps style gets buffed, but tanky dps is not very viable atm

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Wait where is the big damage loss?

Q switches ratio from bonus AD to total AD, base damage changed to reflect on that in conjunction with her current build most likely so it seems like a null change overall if i am not very mistaken ....i havent bothered doing any math on it.

R loses a bit of ratio, E loses a little too and W is a bit weaker in the start but not much.

But overall she gains a notable buff to survivability if maxing W second along with jungle clears becoming healthier.

Doesnt really look bad.

Moody P1 votes

It's only a damage loss on high AD (the meta builds rn) but you only lose negligible damage after Warrior-Triforce-Sterak's (around 60) i think

you actually have more damage below that mark

Anu3isII2 votes

All her ratios are nerfed and her Q Damage is significantly nerfed by this switch from Bonus to Total (alongside the 20% nerf) because Vi generally maxed it first and the change in base damage makes it weaker in the early stages of the game, where a jungler should have high presence. And her clear is pretty healthy from what I remember.

I personally like the changes, but it is clear that her Damage takes a significant hit for her to be buffed in other areas. The change also seems to encourage Top Vi from my perspective, since they greatly increase her dueling potential while decreasing her burst. But, at the same time, Cinderhulk Vi may make a comeback for a tankier frontline bruiser.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Wait correct me if i am wrong but if vi starts the game with say 84 AD(20 from runes), then the current Q does 110+(1,6x20=32) =142 damage, new one would do 20+(1,4 x 84=117,6)=137,6.

Sure, it is a nerf, but its not big at all.

At max rank with standard build i dont think the damage difference will be more than...60-80 or so, which should rapidly be compensated by W attackspeed rising.

Now the only "big" nerf i can spot is the level 1 W, but to me it seems like one could just put a extra point in it at lvl 4 to almost negate it then keep maxing Q if one pleases.

Sire Hippington1 votes

the Q looses .2 ratio, the ult .3 and the E .05, which totals to 0.6 less ad on her full combo, so on her current meta builts that is quite a bit especially on ther warror spike.

Also, her base damage needs till ~lvl 12 to break even with the new number thx to the total ad, lvl 12 and onward her base damage will be slightly lower(exept for her E, which deals slightly less damage at all times.)

At lvl 6 with ~40ad from runes and item 3133 and 78base ad , her combo atm is 380+3.0 bonus ad + 230% total ad, resulting in ~679damag(+2AAs and ~10%maxhealth) The PBE damage would be 270+1.1 bonus AD + 360% total ad = 595(+2AAs and 10% maxhealth), so an ~84 damage loss on the full combo at lvl 6. At lvl 9 with Warriors, it's ~75bonus ad and 87base ad, the live combo is at 630+225+200 = 1055 On PBE it's 525+83+313 = 925, so 130 less damage than on live for the lvl 9 all-in with warrior.

Moody P2 votes

Q is changed from 160% Bonus to 140% Total AD, it's a net buff until you get very high amounts of AD

Sire Hippington3 votes

it also looses base damage, it's a net nerf till lvl 12, and at lvl 18 it's a buff till ~200 bonus ad. Paired with the nerfs to E and Ult, as my math already shows, her early to midgame damage and the damage of more ad focused builts(which are currently meta) loose some noticable damage on the all-in.

I'm all for pushing her from the pseudo assasin towards more tanky dps, but the current state of the game is not very suited for that and instead favours burst builts, which will be nerfed with that change.

Glîtchy1 votes

Akali nerf was all I needed, no more “lololol can’t hit me under turret, get 100-0’d fucker”

Let’s face it, the anti-target even under turret was one of the most toxic abilities in the game

Moody P4 votes

I think you're in the wrong thread, my friend

Linna Excel1 votes

Shyvana has this problem too. The mobility creep is real.

Chembaron Yamada3 votes

Eeeeeeeeh...... Shyvana is a juggernaut as far as I know, being kitable is supposed to be their weakness. Vi is a diver, she should be able to stick to a target to murder it.

Moody P1 votes

I think Shyvana needs more help than a little bit of sticking power, to be honest.

Sire Hippington1 votes

She could use Vi's entier passive instead of her own usless one for starters...shy just doesn't get nearly tanky enough to do her jib as tanky dps. Though sadly, nothing really does onces 5-6 items are reached...tankiness is still in a bad spot and forces all tanky-dps style champs into beeing either early snowball or splitpush only.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Moody P

ADC players don't seem to grasp the reason they are squishy
Gameplay164 comments
135
votes
Just disable Sejuani then Riot
Gameplay61 comments
118
votes
Top lane is shrinking to range tops and the fighters/tanks who can deal with them
Gameplay197 comments
116
votes
Oh right, the Riot solution: Give it more damage
Gameplay89 comments
116
votes
you can't ask for a diverse meta if you also want surprise champs immediately nerfed
Gameplay69 comments
112
votes
Balancing around people who cant play well is absurd
Gameplay178 comments
103
votes