I got as serious question, When the Solo Queue system reward you for Solo performance ?

ValiantKiller··12 votes·7,724 views

Cause i reached that point of being sick of the BS called "Do your best in solo Queue yet you will be judge on your team performance ".

it takes one inting person or kid that on losing streak with champion to ruin your whole game and make you lose the game, no matter what you do as in term of "Solo" performance from taking over lane, helping other, secure objective, etc doesn't get in count when you get that lP gain or lose it.

And it just sad to lose your lp cause your luck with the matchmaking system is "Unlucky", that just random numbers throwing around in queue and you and your luck with teammates which affect your lp.

38 Comments

HairyBellyfonty5 votes

Here's an idea to borrow from what is going on in every other major sport. Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, etc. all have statistical metrics that can show how much better one player is than the other. (Watch the movie "Moneyball" if you want to see the story of how it started in baseball.)

Riot has all the data they need to do something similar in League. They know every action and event at every moment in the game. They could take all that data and give it to a smart data scientist, who could determine that "a kill at this point in the game is worth X percent of a win" or "a death at this point in the game is worth Y percent of a loss." Ditto for every other event: minion kill, dragon or baron take, ward spotting an enemy, etc. They could build up a set of metrics that measure how much each player contributed to a win or a loss. And this could be done by position.

Then, at the end of the game, each player could get an individual LP boost or reduction based on how much they contributed to the win or loss. Then the "inting and feeding" teammate would be punished more than the almost carrying player. Likewise, the complete carry player would be boosted more than their "along for the ride" teammates.

This is totally possible given the availability of data and smart data scientists.

AnotherFeeder2 votes

Theres no way to make a system like this without making it exploitable. People will simply adopt whatever strategy the system rewards the most lp for. Nothing is a more accurate representation of how positively you impact your games than how many games you win.

SUPERX4PANDA4 votes

Name checks out

AnotherFeeder1 votes

Your gonna need to elaborate on that lazy attempt at an insult.

JuiceBoxP3 votes

Ofc you can. Certain actions that make you win games will be rewarded. If you do those actions in attempt to "exploit" you still do those actions and contribute victory.

Focusing on exploiting the system won't get anyone a victory. Playing the game right will.

Plus, you can't exploit it if you don't know how it works. To exploit code you gotta know how it works and reverse engineer it. This system is closed and you haven't got access to it. Good luck exploiting a closed system.

Also you can always tune up and patch exploits. It's not difficult. If you understood what it required you'd understand it's totally feasible... but then again riot is a small indie company

AnotherFeeder1 votes

No you can't. You can't come up with stats from your games that will more accurately represent your performance than whether you're winning your games or not. That is why there are so many KDA players with laughable win rates, because they don't get this. You're not playing for performance, you're playing to win, so why wouldn't winning be the point of reference for your skill? If individual performance starts being valued over winning, than people will just become KDA players and league will cease to be played like a team game.

Also it'd be easy to tell what the system valued after playing alot of games and seeing what LP you get for certain playstyles, no one would need to TELL you how it works.

JuiceBoxP2 votes

You are actively missing the point. Kda is not the only thing judging how well you played. There are 30 other factors. You can see some of the factors on the post game screen in the stats tab and riot could add alot more variables.

You know op.gg? Their op score represents pretty well how much someone contributed to a win/loss, why can't riot use this system too?

And how can i say this .... **You can't focus on exploiting 2-3 factors and expect to win. You won't win by trying to exploit the system and it won't affect your score too much either. If you focus on exploiting 2-4 factors you neglect the other 20 something **

This system is not exploitable when you weigh in so much factors.

Your score will be high only if you play good

AnotherFeeder1 votes

Its clear youre one of the people who is utterly convinced u lose a significant portion of ur game from external factors. But idk, i win my games when im in an elo im better than, i dont see why winning would not be the standard to judge by.

JuiceBoxP2 votes

Well, i know i speak not only for myself when saying that it is quite the widespread opinion that you cannot win a game when someone in your team is hard feeding an enemy carry and causing them to be able to 1v5 so hard that they are able to single handedly close the game.

The general assumption is that one bad player can harm the game more than one good player can do to fix it. I find it to be true.

One bad player can feed multiple enemies where one good player can fees only him self, putting the good player in a hard difficult position to win against several fed enemies.

It is true that statistically speaking, over a course of several hundred games you have a 55% chance of winning if you are truly better than everyone in the games you played, however that doesn't meet reality where there are tons of smurfs everywhere and lots of trolls and feeders every game which eventually break the spirit of the good players and they stop playing ranked well before they get to several hundred games.

Which is why i believe solo queue should be solo-ladder. The brick walls riot puts up for climbers are not helping either (aka those 3 wina you gotta do for climbing a division)

And yeah, i am pretty convinced that match making is garbage and a total coinflip dumpster

AnotherFeeder1 votes

Well, i like to do an account for every diff strategy i try, so ive climbed multiple times. And i find that playing a meta strat well will get you to plat around 60-70% win. And with hard carry strats that take control of games early, can even be higher. Last time i did a draven run, my w/r didnt drop below 80 till about p3. Mb im just really lucky

JuiceBoxP2 votes

First of all, it is widely known that it is easier to climb with meta broken champs. Not to say you are not good enough to climb without them, of course.

Secondly, your skill is vastly superior to people below plat thus you are able to rolfstomp noobs below your elo.

If my true elo is gold 4, while playing in silver i won't be able to crush my opponents enough to outweigh how much they got fed by someone else in my team... catch my drift?

Sure you play the game for a long time and your skill is high.

Speaking for myself, i played against masters on normals and they said i am a really good player and i deserve atleast plat 4 /gold 1 easily. However, speaking for myself, i do not play carry roles( i main support) and i find it extremely difficult and frustrating to climb, because i see my allies making terrible mistakes over and over.

Yeah maybe if i started playing carry broken meta champs i might be able to climb like you Buy right now i feel like i cannot affect my games enough to the point of carrying the game alone.

People that play carry roles and struggle climbing are affected by the fact that they either suck, or are just not overwhelmingly better than their opponents to the point of solo carrying the game.

I think you have to be much better than your opponenta in silver to climb out of it because you really have to 1v9. There is no cooperation in silver.

Those who are not good enough to 1v9 will stay hardstuck silvers forever.(the very vast majority of players)

AnotherFeeder1 votes

While i agree that the skill difference between people in silver is dumb, due largely to the skill level needed to force wins with no team support. Its still always still going to be like that at some point. And i agree UR coin flip elo is always annoying to play in. Mine is low diamond, even upper plat, when i start needing teammates to win games, and u still get alot of shitters. Thats why i dont play that shit, i just start over and try somethin new. Point bein games will feels like coin flips once ur close to the elo u cap out at, and that is actually a decently working system.

What i WOULDNT mind them making though, is a system to vote someone out of lp. People who go deadweight for whatever reason grt lucky with imbalanced matchmaking and get free lp far to often. And the community could regulate itself better if someone who didnt play to win didnt get lp.

hrooza dota 1 votes

op.gg system is not perfect, i can tell because i see their performance dont include matchup or how out numbered you were.

i will use an example of one game i had as support blitz with jinx adc vs varus/galio , at the start they pushed us under tower and were ahead how ever their jungler ignored the easy dive they could do with galio and camped top , mean while our jungler camped bot and sended the varus who was ahead to 0/5 in lane and jinx become hard fed.

op.gg ranks were like this : mvp - our adc , 2nd - me , 3rd - our jg , 4th - our mid , 5th - our top who get camped by enemy jg

6th - their top , 7th - their mid , 8th - galio , 9th - their jg , 10th - varus .

see even op. gg cant judge how each jungler camped a lane and out numbered the enemy laner and put .

and you said it your self there is to many factors, yet theres no way to make all those factors fair at all you can have perfect everything in stat but die once when it mattered and you will be the main reason your team lost.

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

Here's an idea to borrow from what is going on in every other major sport. Baseball, basketball, football, soccer, etc. all have statistical metrics that can show how much better one player is than the other. (Watch the movie "Moneyball" if you want to see the story of how it started in baseball.)

Riot has all the data they need to do something similar in League. They know every action and event at every moment in the game. They could take all that data and give it to a smart data scientist, who could determine that "a kill at this point in the game is worth X percent of a win" or "a death at this point in the game is worth Y percent of a loss." Ditto for every other event: minion kill, dragon or baron take, ward spotting an enemy, etc. They could build up a set of metrics that measure how much each player contributed to a win or a loss. And this could be done by position.

Then, at the end of the game, each player could get an individual LP boost or reduction based on how much they contributed to the win or loss. Then the "inting and feeding" teammate would be punished more than the almost carrying player. Likewise, the complete carry player would be boosted more than their "along for the ride" teammates.

This is totally possible given the availability of data and smart data scientists.

If there system can record someone who run it down, sure they can record lane winning, tp plays and kda to make sure player reward right

AnotherFeeder4 votes

A bad team can lose you a game, but bad teams wont keep you in an elo youre good enough to climb out of. If youre games are consistently being ruined by inter/feeders, it might be bcuz ur inting/feeding.

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

{quoted}

A bad team can lose you a game, but bad teams wont keep you in an elo youre good enough to climb out of. If youre games are consistently being ruined by inter/feeders, it might be bcuz ur inting/feeding.

People evidently disagree for good reason. I can say I felt like losses were my fault in S5/6, but in S7 it started becoming shaky and now in S8 and S9 I'm just sighing because I can't control a Mid/Jg. who legitimately chase the enemy team through their jungle and then feed the enemy Draven a kill and then refuse to gank him to fix the fact they've made my lane nigh-impossible now.

Crispy0Snake2 votes

It's not about individual games, it's about many games in the long term. All you can do is try to be a valuable asset to your team

Best thing to do is copy paste the "xyz have joined the lobby" text from champ select, put it all into op.gg search bar and just see who you're with to avoid first timers/off roles, make a call to dodge some games, it'll save you a few auto losses which adds up in the long term

Also right now in Gold I'd say just play jungle, you seem better at Xin Zhao than Urgot, and jungle is a lot more impactful than top most games. Most junglers in gold seem to be 4fun autolose players, not really ganking/invading, just farming even when their laners are being pushed in (then can't get successful ganks because the enemy laners get vision control). So ye, just watch some guides from good soloq players on Xin or some other good ganking jungler with a dash and cc

Camille Hecarim JarvanIV Vi

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

It's not about individual games, it's about many games in the long term. All you can do is try to be a valuable asset to your team

Best thing to do is copy paste the "xyz have joined the lobby" text from champ select, put it all into op.gg search bar and just see who you're with to avoid first timers/off roles, make a call to dodge some games, it'll save you a few auto losses which adds up in the long term

Also right now in Gold I'd say just play jungle, you seem better at Xin Zhao than Urgot, and jungle is a lot more impactful than top most games. Most junglers in gold seem to be 4fun autolose players, not really ganking/invading, just farming even when their laners are being pushed in (then can't get successful ganks because the enemy laners get vision control). So ye, just watch some guides from good soloq players on Xin or some other good ganking jungler with a dash and cc

Camille Hecarim JarvanIV Vi

Doesn't change anything from your team mate inting and feeding.

SeaWeaboo1 votes

playing JG can help though. If you practice and get good at it then you can help snowball lanes and provide a lot of map pressure. If you can help bad player get ahead then they have a stat cushion to fall on in fights against better players. You can help shutdown those pesky vaynes, kayles, and jaxs as well, making it easier for you to perform better and carry a fight with triples, doubles, etc.

TehRamboCow2 votes

Yeah its your team mates fault you have bad CS numbers, lots of deaths, and almost no kill participation every game. God damn your team mates dude!

hrooza dota 2 votes

ehhh never? solo performance is a mere joke players use an excuse because (look my stats is high why me cant win)

your stats and performance means nothing because theres way to many things to take account for that an automated system cant handle such as lane match up, team comp , teammates helping or not ect ect.

Saianna2 votes

solo performance is a mere joke players use an excuse because

This game literally promoted its ranked as solo performance based ranking system. The mere joke is just player still remembering this "promise"

ValiantKiller1 votes

{quoted}

This game literally promoted its ranked as solo performance based ranking system. The mere joke is just player still remembering this "promise"

Solo performance doesn't matter, you do bad and won you gain same lp as the person who carried you. You so well and try to carry but fail cause an inting adc who goes 0-9 you both lose same amount of lp

Saianna1 votes

That's the point. It used to matter before, long time ago. Now it doesn't :/

USAstar1 votes

[deleted]

PolarEclipse2 votes

{quoted}

It does not reward you for solo performance it punishes you for it. Because rito wants you to drag your friends to play this microtranscation game and make this sad game your only connection with your freinds in order to get every cents from your wallets. So of course no reward for your solo performance. The encourage you to duo and team up by all methods.

What kind of tinfoilery is this?

USAstar1 votes

[deleted]

PolarEclipse1 votes

{quoted}

I don't know, go ask your rito masters.

I thought you could tell me since you seemed like an expert on it though :(

haaaaaaalp1 votes

Because wins and losses in the long run is the beast measure for a player’s individual contribution towards their team winning.

Ameliea1 votes

You dont seem to understand the fundamental flaw with this. In a ranking system someone HAS to lose and somone HAS to win. The LP/MMR you won is the one that the enemy team lost. When you want your LP loss lessened because you did good, the enemy has to gain less to compensate. Or Imagine yourself winning, but because the enemy team lost gracefully and played well, you in turn gain practically no Lp for your win. Thats awful design.

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

{quoted}

You dont seem to understand the fundamental flaw with this. In a ranking system someone HAS to lose and somone HAS to win. The LP/MMR you won is the one that the enemy team lost. When you want your LP loss lessened because you did good, the enemy has to gain less to compensate. Or Imagine yourself winning, but because the enemy team lost gracefully and played well, you in turn gain practically no Lp for your win. Thats awful design.

It already does that. In Diamond, you lose 22ish LP if you lose. You gain 8 if you win. It isn't a 'form of currency' because it isn't finite, and wasn't ever finite by design.

Ameliea1 votes

Uh you phrase it like everyone in diamond has these kinds of gains and losses which is false. Rank is infact a currency. MMR as an ELO system only redistributes points, because if it wouldn't, Inflation would make any ranking meaningless. The league points system does inflate somewhat since there are games where you are at 0 Lp and aren't demoted, but the changes in MMR will still balance this out

Inari Fox Orrion1 votes

{quoted}

Uh you phrase it like everyone in diamond has these kinds of gains and losses which is false. Rank is infact a currency. MMR as an ELO system only redistributes points, because if it wouldn't, Inflation would make any ranking meaningless. The league points system does inflate somewhat since there are games where you are at 0 Lp and aren't demoted, but the changes in MMR will still balance this out

Explain how an MMR above 0 exists then? It isn't a currency. Explain how MMR keeps increasing with the skill of players? In DotA2 for example, people thought the MMR cap was 3k at release. Now it's around 7-8k and all brackets of ~1k MMR have a new set of skills that're learnt or present. MMR is still subject to inflation.

It is normal for D+ players. It's the baseline to lose more than you gain, which is why you see so many smurfs. There are people who 'just deal' with Diamond's broken system, but in the end they just prove how pointless Leagues/Ranks are over a flat & transparent MMR system.

ValiantKiller1 votes

{quoted}

You dont seem to understand the fundamental flaw with this. In a ranking system someone HAS to lose and somone HAS to win. The LP/MMR you won is the one that the enemy team lost. When you want your LP loss lessened because you did good, the enemy has to gain less to compensate. Or Imagine yourself winning, but because the enemy team lost gracefully and played well, you in turn gain practically no Lp for your win. Thats awful design.

And i didn't say you shouldn't lose if your team lose,i say i lose less if i did well on losing game and i gain almost nothing if i got hard carried and was super bad. That my buddy what called locking people in their deserve elo

JuiceBoxP1 votes

Solo performance for solo queue? Rito is a small indie company you silly goose. they could never have enough man power and funds to implement such incredibly sophisticated system, that must be coded from scratch because they currently have no statistics at all for the game and can't possibly measure any player performance atm.

/s

HercaZ1 votes

I posted the same thing here on boards ~10months ago, I urge you to check my comment here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/3jxgPENp-a-troll-proclaims-to-feed-int-in-ranked-champ-select-excellent-im-glad-you-joined-my-que?show=flat&comment=000f00000000

and a responses that i got from a person with very high upvote count, this person right here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/player/NA/HalcyonDweller

Just check my statements and how he replies... This sums up the situation pretty much...

HairyBellyfonty1 votes

Just wanted to bring this back around as we head into season 10. Riot, any chance you could implement a statistical metric system for LP increases/decreases in ranked queues? Then you could individually reward players for their contribution to wins and/or losses.

To reply to all of the commenters that said this system wouldn't be accurate as to real game play, you need to look at how these systems are used in all of the major team sports. These systems are built by studying wins and losses and determining what actions during a game contributed to those wins or losses. These systems typically look at thousands or tens of thousands of events in a single game and can take into account hard to quantify actions like proximity to specific events. Look into how soccer, football and basketball models work and you will see how even actions off the ball (blocking, positioning for defense, etc.) can be taken into account. Many of the big money sports teams employ multiple data scientists to build these models to help them evaluate players, determine what to pay players, how to approach game matchups, etc. (op.gg's model is probably very minimal, and thus not as accurate, since op.gg doesn't have all of the game events statistics like Riot does. Riot knows every action taken at every time throughout the game. That is a gold mine of data to a model like this.)

For another concern, these systems certainly are exploitable: by performing the actions that have been determined to help win games. So in basketball, if making a basket contributes +0.3% chance to your team's win percentage, you can exploit the system by making baskets. If a turnover results in -0.8% chance to your team's win percentage, you can exploit the system by not turning the ball over. If forcing an opponent to drive to his left results in +0.6% chance to your team's win percentage (because your opponent doesn't shoot well going to his left), then you can exploit the system by forcing your opponent to drive to his left. All of those are certainly exploitable actions and all of them should result in increasing your team's win percentage. So exploiting the system is accomplished by actually playing well.

Third, the system can take into account matchups if they wanted to include that in the model. They could take into account champion differences, lane differences, ranked level differences, etc. All of those would just have to be included in the model. The mathematics would sort out how much each of those factors mattered in game wins or losses. (Incidentally, Riot could use these numbers as additional input into champion balance questions.)

Finally, I'm not suggesting that LP increases/decreases for wins or losses should end. Rather, the LP increases/decreases should be apportioned out based on how each of the players contributed to the win or loss. So the losing team would still suffer a team total of 110 LP decrease (22 LP X 5 players) but the ADC and support who did well in the bot lane could each take -10 LP, while the inting/feeder solo laner could take a -35 LP. I think this would not only help players reach and stay in their proper rank, but it would also make inting/feeding players think twice as they will suffer a much larger LP hit.

The bottom line is Riot has tons and tons of raw data on their games that could be looked at an analyzed to build a very robust model of performance. (Much easier than the major sports where they have to decipher actions from videos of the games) Once they have the model, Riot could then make a video explaining the good things and bad things that players should do to generate wins. Then, new and low ELO players would understand the game better and the maybe overall level of play would improve.

But at a minimum, handing out LP increases or decreases on a proportional basis would be a much needed addition.

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