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I'm really tired of QSS against Urgot

ValiantKiller··75 votes·18,846 views

I work my damn ass to position to the right place and i put enough damage then when i land the perfect R. The ADC just point to click his stupid item 3140 to run free from my R and keep his AA on me till i die ? How that even fair ?

I really enjoying how this game give no damn about Urgot and allowing anyone to counter skillshots yet when it come to Darius Veigar Garen Chogath Pyke QSS can't save you from their R special 3 of them got point to click R.

"Edited" Few things i forgot to mention about Urgot in general:

  1. His R cast take forever to be finished and if you killed during the casting time the enemy will escape happy and safe while all champions mentioned can in blink of eye kill you before they die.

  2. You can body block the Urgot R skillshot for your teammate any day if you have high enough HP % and it will be wasted while you can't body block any point to click R while Pyke R work in X zone which is good to kill anyone in that zone who below the flat HP.

  3. Urgot isn't that strong tanker in team fights like Cho while it easy to CC him cause he can't buy item 3053 like Garen , Pyke and Daruis to get free tenacity while he isn't that high ranged champion like Veigar.

  4. And Finally Urgot R doesn't chain kill like Pyke and Daruis R with free reset, neither it kill squishy champion from 100-0 like Cho and if you wasn't quick to pull someone before they die in team fight it will go on CD no matter what while Garen R if casted and enemy die before it finish casting it will get free reset on it CDR.

219 Comments

5050BS33 votes

Got to love Champ ults that have LONG CD, are skill shots (so can be blocked by TONS of things), slow projectile, Only usable on <20% targets

Then you have Yasuo with a 18s CD AOE Ult that can be used in ANY situation.

ValiantKiller14 votes

{quoted}

Got to love Champ ults that have LONG CD, are skill shots (so can be blocked by TONS of things), slow projectile, Only usable on <20% targets

Then you have Yasuo with a 18s CD AOE Ult that can be used in ANY situation.

Talking about him, he can windwall it and can buy QSS just in case if he failed badly at windwalling your R.

VermillionWolf9 votes

Its 18 seconds? I thought it was 30

ValiantKiller1 votes

{quoted}

Its 18 seconds? I thought it was 30

I think less I thin Yas and Kat the 2 champions with lowest CD on their R.

VermillionWolf7 votes

Nah its 30 seconds just looked it up

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

Nah its 30 seconds just looked it up

30 is still pretty low for high damage skill that can chain cc you.

Luxen4 votes

with 45% cd and ultimate hat.. yasuo ult has 12sec CD.. just wanted to point it out. And with essence reaver 5-7cd potentially or lesser

D357R0Y3R14 votes

Ok so few things: hE doesn't build reaver he doesn't build cdr at all he doesn't take inspiration

ValiantKiller3 votes

{quoted}

Ok so few things: hE doesn't build reaver he doesn't build cdr at all he doesn't take inspiration

Agree on that, that why is ult CDR is low at first place.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

CertainlyT explained that the reason his ult was on low cd and why balance team never increased it, is because Yasuo ult is the only ult that CANNOT be used everytime he wants. he needs a knock up to use it, so he won't be able (except if a lot of knock ups are landed) to use it a lot of times.

also to talk about the original thread QSS does not make urgot ult weak, urgot ult needs too much set up in the first place

do you think QSS stopped skarner from dominating the meta few patches ago? not at all...

DrCyanide13 votes

also to talk about the original thread QSS does not make urgot ult weak, urgot ult needs too much set up in the first place

do you think QSS stopped skarner from dominating the meta few patches ago? not at all...

For me, the QSS with Urgot is about consistency. Remember how they stopped QSS from effecting Zed ult? How Riot made a big deal about the difference between "cleansing crowd control (Amumu ult) and purging combat debuffs (Zed ult)"? Here's a direct quote from those patch notes:

By contrast, cleansing a combat debuff wipes the applicator's primary means of fighting you. So, those champs are pressured to snowball before their effects become meaningless

It's safe to say that Urgot's ult fits in the "it shouldn't be QSSed" category. Yes, it drags someone - but that someone was already dead at that point. Let it remove the slow so they can run further and try to get away from extra damage, but it shouldn't stop the execute.

5050BS1 votes

No Yasuo worth a grain of salt has 0 CDR. Think people!

40% of 30 = 18

VermillionWolf2 votes

item 3046 item 3006 item 3031 item 3072 item 3026 Where is the CDR? Blue buff?

Raven Redeemed3 votes

First of all, you are comparing apples with oranges. Yasuo’s ult is a setup tool (mobility, passive refresh, armor pen, very little damage), Urot’s is a damage tool (kills a target no mater what their hp, resistances, or dmg reduction). They are very different tools for champs of very different classes and very different kits.

2nd, Urgot’s ult ult does <25%, not <20%.

3rd, Yasuo’s ult CD is not all that much longer than Urgot’s, especially considering Urgot loves to get CDR while Yasuo does not (he is one of the worst urf champs for a reason). Yasuo’s ult is 30s at lvl 16, Urgot’s is 70 (59 with a conservative 30% cdr). A 30 second difference is decent, but again, apples and oranges, Karma, Zoe, etc.

4th, Yasuo’s ult is just as (if not more) situational than Urgot’s. He has to be in combat for a bit at least with minions (with all the CD commitments that entails) to even unlock the possibility of ulting (which the enemy can see and prepare for), Urgot has no such restrictions. Yasuo’s effective ult range is far smaller than Urgot’s. His missile speed (also a projectile) is slower than Urgot’s. His aoe requires him to be in melee range. And his ult effectively stuns him in melee range (while Urgot’s can be used across the screen without self-cc) which means there are a ton of situations where Yasuo will not want to ult because he would get himself killed. Not to mention Yasuo’s ult does not apply a hefty aoe fear for post-ult safety.

Champion Skin3 votes

First of all, you are comparing apples with oranges. Yasuo’s ult is a setup tool (mobility, passive refresh, armor pen, very little damage), Urot’s is a damage tool (kills a target no mater what their hp, resistances, or dmg reduction). They are very different tools for champs of very different classes and very different kits.

Well it isn't really a good damage tool as it doesn't really do much damage at all unless the champion is below the threshold unlike other execute ultimates which often can deal plenty of damage even if the champion isn't that low on HP

And even if the enemy is low enough it doesn't deal any damage at all unless the animation/delay finishes and Urgot isn't killed or it is removed with QSS or something like that

TheGreatNinx3 votes

Your comparing apples to oranges. Yasuo's ult isn't an execute and requires set up. It's like saying ziggs ult is also useful in any situation and his cd on ult ridiculously short with 60cds with max cdr.

Jaspers21 votes

My view is scewed as I think Urgot's ult is one of the worse abilities in this game, I hate it (25% bullcrap). But you do realise that they are buying a 1100 gold MR item to survive Urgot?

They are going out of their way to buying an item with a cooldown of 90 seconds against an ult which can go as low as 50 with CDR when said item offrs nothing against the damage Urgot or his ult deals.

EDIT: Sorry, 1300 gold.

ValiantKiller4 votes

{quoted}

My view is scewed as I think Urgot's ult is one of the worse abilities in this game, I hate it (25% bullcrap). But you do realise that they are buying a 1100 gold MR item to survive Urgot?

They are going out of their way to buying an item with a cooldown of 90 seconds against an ult which can go as low as 50 with CDR when said item offrs nothing against the damage Urgot or his ult deals.

item 3053 on Melee can provide so much against Urgot. item 3031 true damage able to just melt through Urgot W shield since it put some true damage. All lifesteal items work perfect special it easy to kit urgot since he slow and he got semi range.

Add to that and that is my question to you, what urgot can do against a 550+ range champion who can keep aa him to death special Caitlyn Xayah Tristana who got the best kitting to urgot kit ? Right nothing and when i do my best to get them in fair 1v1, they just escape with item 3140 then kill me ? Cause my item 3143 or item 3075 almost useless against their damage? That is fair for you ?

Edit : Another question, What does items provide against Garen Darius Chogath point to click true damage ?Right nothing then why urgot get punished with it being skillshot and easy to remove with one item ?why it doesn't get to be a point to click skill like this 3 champions R?

Jaspers10 votes

Urgot's Q has a range of 800, if you hit that E in and W that ADC like it's no tomorrow, you save that Ult for the 4kHP Maokai your team is dealing with because removing a 1000HP Mao from the map is more important than removing the 400 HP ADC.

Don't get me wrong, I get you. Being kited by ADC as a juggernaut is the problem with the class in general, isn't that the point? If Yorick misses his W or E he might as well just not go in as he won't get to the ADC ever, same with Darius or Garen if they can't close the gap.

Garen's execute does magic damage, so MR works. Darius and Cho you need HP. Darius ult without stacks btw is really weak. But while the latter 2 if you build HP it lets you survive, with Urgot, it's just increasing the threshold for the second part of his E.

Fair is subjective. I don't think it's fair that he has a 25% threshold on his ult.... so.

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

Urgot's Q has a range of 800, if you hit that E in and W that ADC like it's no tomorrow, you save that Ult for the 4kHP Maokai your team is dealing with because removing a 1000HP Mao from the map is more important than removing the 400 HP ADC.

Don't get me wrong, I get you. Being kited by ADC as a juggernaut is the problem with the class in general, isn't that the point? If Yorick misses his W or E he might as well just not go in as he won't get to the ADC ever, same with Darius or Garen if they can't close the gap.

Garen's execute does magic damage, so MR works. Darius and Cho you need HP. Darius ult without stacks btw is really weak. But while the latter 2 if you build HP it lets you survive, with Urgot, it's just increasing the threshold for the second part of his E.

Fair is subjective. I don't think it's fair that he has a 25% threshold on his ult.... so.

My problem isn't with kitting, i main illaoi and yorick beside urgot so i pretty much dealing with kiting always, but my problem is a point to click item cancel a skillshot complete like it was nothing . But if you are villain it will be true damage, Daruis ult is point to click and can reset and yes Cho need stacks but his ult can just delete ADC above 70% hp. you know that very well.

Jaspers2 votes

A fair point and while true, you aren't cancelling the skillshot, you're cancelling a suppression CC, that's it. You landed the skill shot, did damage, congrats. It's the second part, which is completely unavoidable if below 25% as it even automatically does it after 4 seconds, there has to be some counterplay to that, even if it's a 1300 gold QSS against an AD champ.

Hey, not denying all executes have some bullcrap about them. Executes are like that, the only fair one in my mind is Evelynns, it has an indicator but even then that's just so you know it'll do enhanced damage, if they have MR it might not kill them.

Champion Skin2 votes

It's the second part, which is completely unavoidable if below 25% as it even automatically does it after 4 seconds, there has to be some counterplay to that, even if it's a 1300 gold QSS against an AD champ.

Well there is? It is the same as all other burst/execute abilities in that you just need to not drop low enough for it to kill you and Urgot ult doesn't even really deal much damage unlike other abilities unless you fall in range unlike most other execute abilities which can deal a lot of damage even when being way above 25% health

And there is also the counterplay in that you can avoid it or an ally can just stand in the way and tank the skillshot as it doesn't really do much to champions who are above the execute threshold

Like why can't I QSS Syndra ult or Veigar ult? There needs to be some counterplay to that point and click burst it can even kill you when above 25% health

Jaspers1 votes

You can't QSS those ults as they aren't CC of any kind but you can Zhonyas negating all damage, you can barrier, you can exhaust, you can Seraphs, all sorts of things. You can't Zhonya's suppression, it's QSS or dead (for most people).

ValiantKiller2 votes

{quoted}

You can't QSS those ults as they aren't CC of any kind but you can Zhonyas negating all damage, you can barrier, you can exhaust, you can Seraphs, all sorts of things. You can't Zhonya's suppression, it's QSS or dead (for most people).

Zhonyas work only against pyke but the point to click skills just get reset and you can recast it after while exhaust doesn't stop the true damage both on daruis and cho while garen if villain = true damage. And for Urgot, all shields will keep you safe from taking enough damage to goes below the 25% hp while you can perfect zhonyas time to safe you from rest of damage as well and exhaust will slow down the damage needed then QSS can just remove the whole effect. And as my friend said anyone can just go infront of you and block it for you if they got high hp wasting it for urgot while other skills just point to click while pyke make x shaped area.

Daedric Etwahl16 votes

On a related note it tilts me that Tryndamere can ult and Gangplank can use an orange to just cancel my ult. If Trynd ults before I do then that's fine but the fact that he can ult during CC is silly.

ValiantKiller13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KA5VuUxw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-10T08:54:20.213+0000)

On a related note it tilts me that Tryndamere can ult and Gangplank can use an orange to just cancel my ult. If Trynd ults before I do then that's fine but the fact that he can ult during CC is silly.

Tryndamere ult in general is dumb, no one should be allowed to use anything during cc but whatever. Kayle should use her R during CC to match the same dumb logic of Tryndamere

hrooza dota 9 votes

tbf Kayle ult have the advantage of being cost able on an ally so its fair in that side

ValiantKiller3 votes

[{quoted}](name=hrooza dota ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KA5VuUxw,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T09:20:37.543+0000)

tbf Kayle ult have the advantage of being cost able on an ally so its fair in that side

I mean cast it on herself, but agree since it can be cast on ally can make difference.

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

Plus I specifically remember fighting a Kayle and I hit her with the ult and she immediately ulted, so I just waited it out before pulling her in. I can't do that with Tryndamere because he can ult during the suppress.

Andrey03455 votes

but the fact that he can ult during CC is silly.

well, otherwise it would be total garbage?

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

Or maybe it would force him to actually think about when to use his ult insteas of getting a get out of jail free card.

BEK Makadur3 votes

Dude tryn has no survivability besides his ult at all. He would need to cast his ult at the bginning of every teamfight vs a team with just a few cc abilitys.

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

Oh poor Tryndamere, let's just give him an random exception to one of the basic rules of the game.

Yeah. So if he fucks up and gets hit by a CC then he dies. Just like every other champion.

If he suddenly appears over a wall and I CC him before he ults, he should die if he gets bursted down before the CC ends.

But as it is, nope, he can just Ult in the middle of the CC as a get out of jail free card to ignore what would be a fuck up on any other champion.

And even in Urgot's case, Trynd's ult lasts longer than the suppress and execute of Urgot's, so if the Tryndamere is smart at all he can pop ult right before he gets suppressed and that would be fine. But as it is the Urgot can do everything right and get the ult, but get robbed of the kill because Tryndamere can press R during a suppress. What an outplay.

And speaking from experience I've had games where I am splitpush vs Trynd and he cannot kill me because I won vs him hard, because he wasnt good. But I wasn't able to kill him either, because he can ult during mine.

There's zero skill involved in Tryndamere's side. If a Tryndamere ever dies with ult up then he either doesn't have an R key or is actually terrible. Theres no way for an opponent to stop him from using it

BEK Makadur3 votes

Dude tryn is in the nearly from the beginning and he never was a problem at all, he was never rly OP and in competetive he also didn´t rly see play.

If he couldn´t ult during cc he would just sit at a 10% winrate as he would be shit.

Yes his ult is strong, but that´s why his other abilities are pretty bad, he got no hard cc, not a single point and click and is pretty much unable to outplay his opponents, he solely relies on the dumbness and mistakes of the enemy and macro play.

Besides that in most cases he is very bad in teamfights even tho he can use his ult during cc as he will just get chain ccd to death.

Also i die every now and then when i have my ult up, due to unexpected burst or sometimes even knowing that using it is not worth. You haven´t even played tryn one and yet you still say stuff like that...

Andrey03453 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KA5VuUxw,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2018-08-10T15:16:13.205+0000)

Or maybe it would force him to actually think about when to use his ult insteas of getting a get out of jail free card.

No, it wouldn't. It would just make him straight up useless because he basically won't have an ultimate anymore and will be just like any other Yi or Yasuo: get cc'd - die. So basically you either use your R with full hp and dive - with having like 1-2 seconds immortality because they will have to burst your hp bar first, or get chain cc'd and die because you won't have a single moment to use it. And even with it being like it is he's pretty bad, so I don't see a single reason to nerf it that bad.

TempName548464 votes

the thing about urgot and tryndamere that should be fixed is urgot automatically recasting ult if he ults a trynda thats ulting at bellow 25% hp

Marothennan15 votes

I'm pretty sure whoever bought QSS just for you is pretty sick of your ult too

ValiantKiller7 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure whoever bought QSS just for you is pretty sick of your ult too

She was Xayah , Xayah the stupid adc with safe R but since she keep messing up her R and i can keep hitting it right she just went and bought qss Just a skilled item.

Marothennan3 votes

{quoted}

She was Xayah , Xayah the stupid adc with safe R but since she keep messing up her R and i can keep hitting it right she just went and bought qss Just a skilled item.

Given that you have to be close to the target to do serious damage as Urgot my guess is that you are hitting your ult at point blank. So idk if bragging about being able to hit your ult consistently makes much sense

ValiantKiller4 votes

{quoted}

Given that you have to be close to the target to do serious damage as Urgot my guess is that you are hitting your ult at point blank. So idk if bragging about being able to hit your ult consistently makes much sense

You know that xayah R make her move to safe distance while casting it ? That mean i did ult her after she messed her r and she was far away but she active QSS and escaped it.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

{quoted}

You know that xayah R make her move to safe distance while casting it ? That mean i did ult her after she messed her r and she was far away but she active QSS and escaped it.

All her R allows her to do is move normally. Unless she activated some sort of speed boost before ulting, she's just walking away from you when she uses her ult.

Daddy Ants10 votes

It's called counter play.

Deal with it.

Pyke's ult can be dodged.

Darius, Garen and Cho'Gath need to be kited.

La Bello24 votes

this would be a thing in a later season EXCEPT Riot long ago delibrately reworked QSS to not be a hard counter to ults removing its interaction with

Zed Fiora and adjusting its interaction with Malzahar Warwick for the sake of consistency in design philosophy YES QSS should not work against Urgot chains anymore considering the execute is the main focus of the ult.

OtterlyLost2 votes

{quoted}

this would be a thing in a later season EXCEPT Riot long ago delibrately reworked QSS to not be a hard counter to ults removing its interaction with

Zed Fiora and adjusting its interaction with Malzahar Warwick for the sake of consistency in design philosophy YES QSS should not work against Urgot chains anymore considering the execute is the main focus of the ult.

My thing is that when they did that, they might as well have removed it. Theres next to no point to building it now as you have to sacrifice a lot to do so. They removed pink wards when they decided those shouldn't counter stealth anymore. Honestly, they should have removed QSS as well.

And while I'm at it, why does Zhonya's exist as an item then? It counters all of those ults plus a variety of others(karthus, rengar, zyra). Why can mages have a hard counter to everything but no one else?

DW Diana9 votes

tbh QSS is a bullshit item in the first place. It's a get out of jail free card for anyone miss-positioning... well anyone AD of course. Anyone AP have...

ValiantKiller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KA5VuUxw,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-08-10T09:48:57.199+0000)

tbh QSS is a bullshit item in the first place. It's a get out of jail free card for anyone miss-positioning... well anyone AD of course. Anyone AP have...

Have nothing lol

Ravenhale2 votes

item 3102 new build path item 3140 + item 1033 +item 1026 3000G - 50 AP / 60 MR retains Unique spell shield passive and now includes Unique Quicksilver Active.

BEK Makadur2 votes

op... Also mages got other advantages over adcs.

Ravenhale2 votes

Eh, I dunno. This feels more like a stronger dueling tool against other mages.

Saitho Orihara8 votes

I'll say that it's bullshit that you can QSS Urgot ult, but QSS Garen ? Darius ? Cho ? Pyke ? It's no CC, no effect, it's just an instant (except Pyke who is semi-instant) execute. That specific argument is really bugging me but it is true that if Zed ult can no longer be QSS, why can Urgot ult be ? And their Point and Click is melee range, they could put it as an empowered Auto it wouldn't change much.

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