Why not...instead of buffing every ADC in the game and make them toxic, nerf lucain?

ValiantKiller·Dec 17, 2018·64 votes·17,457 views

That dude can just eat in one combo with PTA more than 75% HP of any type of squishy in game from start to the end of game.

So maybe maybe use the brain that God have give you and instead of buffing to be beyond toxic level while buffing other ADC which mostly 100% by the rate of last year changes you made going to make them beyond toxic aswell.

Just why not just gut down ? A champion with over 33% pickrate and 54% winrate that clearly say he unhealthy champion.

But right God forbid if it was or or some champion that isn't favorite by you guys, he would got his hard nerf the second day he got such numbers.

140 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerDec 17, 201824 votes

Because then the rest of them are still too weak?

Critmaster GarenDec 17, 201826 votes

{quoted}

Because then the rest of them are still too weak?

theyre not lol.

the reason they arent played is because kaisa, draven, mf, lucian burst the shit out of them during the lane phase.

theyre basically ranged assassins. riot could have just tuned down the early burst of these champions slightly.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 17, 201818 votes

First: Kai’sa is not bullying people in laning phase. Sure, the support can. But she isn’t (unless the enemy just sucks).

Second: all those other ones you mention are supposed to bully. They are strong early game champions.

Third: nerfing those champions doesn’t change the fact that other ADCs can’t do shit until they have a full item build, and are at the mercy of literally every other class in the game, and have no significant reward for enduring until the reach that point.

Critmaster GarenDec 17, 20187 votes

[deleted]

DerPunktDec 18, 20186 votes

i dont see any compensation nerfs this patch. just all around buffs.

marksmen early game was nerfed for a reason,

In what world do these statements not contradict each other?

The marksman role was hit so hard by the nerf that it was on the verge of disappearing and being replaced by more APCaster types. So they had to be buffed to a level where they could at least exists. 3/4 are still not relevant, and everybody is crying about the considered OP rest.

I don't get it. A Zed is allowed to kill any Marksmen with not even his whole rotation and gets a pretty far range jump on his ult which has a fairly low CD. But Lucian who actually needs a full roatition with AAs in between to kill anything is a problem? I actually don't get it. Lucian is freaking irrelevant in late game. Yes you can not faceroll him within the first 25 minutes as the rest of the Marksman, but after that he just becomes fodder in TF.

Kai'sa on the other hand... just unhealthy. I love playing her. But I abso-fucking-lutely get why she should not exist. A DPS champ should not have that much movement. Just no. I understand every complaint aimed at Kai'sa... but Lucian? I hate that guys, he is a pain in the a** I hate laning against him I hate playing him. But he is very much beatable. Don't freaking die. Give up some CS and you catch up around minute 20. From there on you will start to just dominate him with most other carries. Or just ask your friendly neighbourhood assassin to point an click delete him.

vgamedudeDec 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

In what world do these statements not contradict each other?

The marksman role was hit so hard by the nerf that it was on the verge of disappearing and being replaced by more APCaster types. So they had to be buffed to a level where they could at least exists. 3/4 are still not relevant, and everybody is crying about the considered OP rest.

I don't get it. A Zed is allowed to kill any Marksmen with not even his whole rotation and gets a pretty far range jump on his ult which has a fairly low CD. But Lucian who actually needs a full roatition with AAs in between to kill anything is a problem? I actually don't get it. Lucian is freaking irrelevant in late game. Yes you can not faceroll him within the first 25 minutes as the rest of the Marksman, but after that he just becomes fodder in TF.

Kai'sa on the other hand... just unhealthy. I love playing her. But I abso-fucking-lutely get why she should not exist. A DPS champ should not have that much movement. Just no. I understand every complaint aimed at Kai'sa... but Lucian? I hate that guys, he is a pain in the a** I hate laning against him I hate playing him. But he is very much beatable. Don't freaking die. Give up some CS and you catch up around minute 20. From there on you will start to just dominate him with most other carries. Or just ask your friendly neighbourhood assassin to point an click delete him.

"on the verge of disappearing"

man I love adc main hyperbole. If that's what you call currently being 95+ percent of whats picked bot lane and even 80+ percent during the time when riot actually tried to introduce diversity "on the verge of disappearing" then I guess now they're still endangered to you.

DerPunktDec 18, 20182 votes

Yes that is what I call in the verge of disappearing. Marksman have no other position they can fill (not including the very rarely seen and very specific mid picks) and while they were next to exclusively picked bot, it was massively reduced for some time. Also where do you get your 95%? Your a~~ is not a reliable source. When an animal that exclusively leaves in a part of the world starts to lose its territory to a invasive species we call it on the verge of disappearing. And this is what we saw right after 8.11. There was a very strong decline in Marksman picks. Riot was very fast to correct this and as you can see if you'd read my paragraph unprejudiced you would recognize its past tense. It seems it is a reflex to bash people defending the existence of Marksman in the game. Marksman WERE on the verge of disappearing. They never startet to really disappear nor are they still in this state. We saw an initial decline and the game was adjusted accordingly to not alienate a big chunk of players. You have to remember. A little more than 1/5 of players plays ADC, they don't play Marksman but ADC and ADC was exclusively Marksman thus they basically had to only play Marksman. Thats why I say it was on the verge of disappearing and that is a bad thing. Now they are weaker than before and open up some other options and that is a good thing. But making the whole pool of 1/5 of players useless initially was not the smartest move. And you have to not misunderstand me here, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I personally like the Marksman playstyle and most of the specific champs I just like, for some random reason, are marksman. So diversity is cool. I'd just like to still play some of the champs I have played for years now. I am used to playing losing lanes due to meta shifts. I played Viktor when he was dogs* before his rework. I still love to play Vi or Nautilus in jungle even though they are considered weak. I Like to play none meta weak stuff. But when every single pick of your's is considered a weak pick it is tough, and going down from next to exclusive to 80+ as you said within ONE patch is kinda a hard decline and can be considered to be on the verge of disappearing. So there is/was a justified fear of basically having nothing to play until is found a new play style that I like. Which can be tough. When you like something you don't just settle for the next best thing. You like one thing it goes, more often than not you now have nothing you like instead of the next best thing you like a little less.

I say it again. Marksman WERE on the VERGE of disappearing.

I marked the important words so try to read it that way.

And I am pretty sure. ADC could literally deal 1/10 of the DMG another role does and you would still find people arguing they are to strong for being a ranged champion.

vgamedudeDec 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yes that is what I call in the verge of disappearing. Marksman have no other position they can fill (not including the very rarely seen and very specific mid picks) and while they were next to exclusively picked bot, it was massively reduced for some time. Also where do you get your 95%? Your a~~ is not a reliable source. When an animal that exclusively leaves in a part of the world starts to lose its territory to a invasive species we call it on the verge of disappearing. And this is what we saw right after 8.11. There was a very strong decline in Marksman picks. Riot was very fast to correct this and as you can see if you'd read my paragraph unprejudiced you would recognize its past tense. It seems it is a reflex to bash people defending the existence of Marksman in the game. Marksman WERE on the verge of disappearing. They never startet to really disappear nor are they still in this state. We saw an initial decline and the game was adjusted accordingly to not alienate a big chunk of players. You have to remember. A little more than 1/5 of players plays ADC, they don't play Marksman but ADC and ADC was exclusively Marksman thus they basically had to only play Marksman. Thats why I say it was on the verge of disappearing and that is a bad thing. Now they are weaker than before and open up some other options and that is a good thing. But making the whole pool of 1/5 of players useless initially was not the smartest move. And you have to not misunderstand me here, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I personally like the Marksman playstyle and most of the specific champs I just like, for some random reason, are marksman. So diversity is cool. I'd just like to still play some of the champs I have played for years now. I am used to playing losing lanes due to meta shifts. I played Viktor when he was dogs* before his rework. I still love to play Vi or Nautilus in jungle even though they are considered weak. I Like to play none meta weak stuff. But when every single pick of your's is considered a weak pick it is tough, and going down from next to exclusive to 80+ as you said within ONE patch is kinda a hard decline and can be considered to be on the verge of disappearing. So there is/was a justified fear of basically having nothing to play until is found a new play style that I like. Which can be tough. When you like something you don't just settle for the next best thing. You like one thing it goes, more often than not you now have nothing you like instead of the next best thing you like a little less.

I say it again. Marksman WERE on the VERGE of disappearing.

I marked the important words so try to read it that way.

And I am pretty sure. ADC could literally deal 1/10 of the DMG another role does and you would still find people arguing they are to strong for being a ranged champion.

Again. Look up the numbers, marksmen in the bot lane role were still practically the only game in town. Having them still with an 80+ percent pick rate in the peak of diverse bot lane tells you all you need to know. Not to mention you have some marksmen who can be played in other roles. Like graves, twitch at times, kai sa when she came out, lucian, corki etc.

If you saw the game allow more diversity in roles you would likely see marksmen appear more often in other roles as well. Including the ability to compare marksmen with other classes and roles instead of just having them be compared to marksmen bot laners every time.

It would allow more fair balancing and the roles and classes to be compared in their strengths of the game as a whole not just their strengths compared opposite to the other champs who fill that role.

saltranDec 17, 201815 votes

Kai'Sa bullying adcs in lane phase

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/290/942/c31.png

Modl Ryden lDec 17, 201814 votes

I don't understand why people think <50% WR + <10% PR indicates that a champion is inherently in need of a dire nerf. It just means they're thriving in the current state of the game. It has nothing to do with the champions kit being unhealthy.

At this point adding win rate and pick rates as some kind of data or statistic model in a post is just fluff.

Toxic kits that still exist are champions like Pantheon and Fiddlesticks where there is no inherent weakness to their targetted CC abilities. Abilities that cannot be countered outside the scope of the receiving player's champion kit.

The only 'unhealthy' part of Lucian's gameplay is the fact that he is more or less the ONLY marksman that can proc Press the Attack effectively. That's the only thing that's making him strong right now. If you were to remove keystones from the game, theorhetically, he would be just as weak as he was before the marksman item update, as we would not have any upfront burst damage followed by enhances persistent damage because of the 12% damage received buff.

IF I WERE TO BALANCE LUCIAN AND THE REST OF THE MARKSMEN BUT I CAN'T BECAUSE I'M JUST A PLAYER AND NOT RIOT EMPLOYEE

I would nerf PTA to 9% damage received from 12% Revert the nerfs on Fleet Footwork.

Because right now the only way marksmen are stay relevant is if they can keep up with Lucian and playing his game by also taking PTA. If you nerf PTA you nerf everyone in the marksmen roster but Lucian will stay on top just because among them he can reliably proc it in all stages of the game, where most of them won't be able to proc it until 12+ mins reliably.

Besides it's not like MOST PTA users are gonna miss that 3%. Melee champs are comfortable taking Conqueror anyways.

Hayaishi2Dec 17, 201813 votes

Because even if Lucian is OP. Varus and Xayah still sit at the bottom regardless of who is on top.

AirKingNeoDec 17, 201810 votes

Varus and Kai'sa are literally middle of the pack ADCs.

saltranDec 17, 201810 votes

Varus isn't mid pack https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Varus/

He's definetely weak.

ŚhunpoDec 18, 20183 votes

How about we just fix Varus as a whole instead of buffing him again. On-hit Varus is by far the biggest issue, so fix Guinsoo's first (nerf that shit) then we can talk about Varus.

saltranDec 18, 20183 votes

Hey, you are someome that sometimes say rational things here which is rare.

Can you exactly explain me why is a champ with terrible soloQ stats the mide pack of the ADCs ?

And dont go with the Akali winrate argument because both are on way differents spots.

MiD EnforcerDec 17, 20186 votes

I don't get why adc main complain about Mage taking over boy lane. HELLO??? MIDLANER?? There's bruiser (axxtrox), tank (Gallio), Mage, assassin, diver, etc. Why do you only want ADC to be in botlane? Where does it says that only adc can be not lane???? Jesus Chris! Adapt and be more flexible.

GigglesODec 18, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=MiD Enforcer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-12-17T22:47:55.135+0000)

Adapt and be more flexible.

LOL, time to circle jerk the "Adapt or leave" comments that everyone else keeps circulating every time I say things like. I wish armor had value again.

ValiantKillerDec 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

LOL, time to circle jerk the "Adapt or leave" comments that everyone else keeps circulating every time I say things like. I wish armor had value again.

What is armor anymore? Say every master yi, camile and fiora mains. Honiesy screw true damage ans conquer like this champions needed more damage and true damage

GigglesODec 18, 20182 votes

Yea Idk I saw an alistar die in 3 seconds with his ulti up the other day.... I was like damnnnnn,

Friend showed me the death report and 90% was true damage. (VS cam + yi)

RagnaveilDec 18, 20182 votes

"20% isn't a whole lot, it means you can still counter these guys with armor" (Someone told me this when I said the only reason why Jax and Irelia are fucking nasty to deal with is because of Conqueror) Right...let me build armor vs a guy who's autos are just purely true damage, and scissor legs lady who converts sheen damage into straight true damage.

GigglesODec 18, 20181 votes

That is the worst part, once you get enough armor its more like 50% of their damage is true damage.

Take for example a jinx crit with_** just iedge. **_ This is against 117 armor. She does have mortal reminder.

https://imgur.com/a/PiMy49c

RagnaveilDec 18, 20184 votes

And people think that by buffing ADCs tanks will come back. lmao

LordGeovanniDec 19, 20181 votes

8% says you can still counter these guys with armor not 20%. espeically when its stacked with item 3071 lethality items etc and fighters and want to build 2-3 damage items tenactity boots and at least one mr item (and still lose 80% of their hp in one mage / ap assassin combo) and rest armor aka armor should be decently effective in 2 items and penetration shouldnt take all of that effectiveness away and mr more effective for one item. if tanks decide to build 4 armor items and a boots(when armor pen is still super high btw and true damage floating around ) and you find it hard to kill them them (while armor losess effectiveness the more you stack it which is why you stack with it instead of strictly armor) then you maybe you shouldnt invalidate the champions whole build and game play design in 2-5 seconds while you lie about what you game play design is. Marksmen are not the KILL TANKS CLASS otherwise they wouldnt have access to crit or large ad amounts and would only do on hit % damage. Marksmen/s job is consistent damage over time through auto attacks it doesnt have to chunky 40% of a tanks hp to be consistent. 4% over all damage on 2.3 attack per second is a good amount. then we can get to mages chunking you for over half your hp bar while you build full defense and their 3 second cooldowns as if you supposed to take advantage of that to kill them especially when their spells fly for free with no animation or less than .75 animation while tanks and bruisers have 2 second wind up skills and their cooldowns start after their skills end compared to mages as it is casted.

GigglesODec 19, 20182 votes

Too bad they don't deal consistent damage across a teamfight...

Pretty sure this qualifies as burst damage. https://i.imgur.com/JtSAmo7.jpg

(btw screen shot was taken right before the damage applied since the damage value pops up before the damage actually hits)

LordGeovanniDec 19, 20182 votes

good thing something like that only has a 8-15 % chance at happening and is balacned by them having tons of attacks

[slayer-jinx-wink] And on an adc who is not good because she isnt top of the meta.... I dont swear but some one does.

GigglesODec 19, 20182 votes

Where are you getting your math from?

What math are you also talking about? That was full build vs full build btw.

LordGeovanniDec 19, 20182 votes

It was sarcasam I threw out actually balanced crit numbers from other games that would fit in league versus the 60%-120% crit change meta we have.

MiD EnforcerDec 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

LOL, time to circle jerk the "Adapt or leave" comments that everyone else keeps circulating every time I say things like. I wish armor had value again.

The way you improve is to adapt. You don't get it do you? Just like life, adapt to the situations. Don't stuck one place. Just like science.

GigglesODec 18, 20184 votes

I was just told "adapt or leave" when they made tank stats shit for all non tanks. I was also told adapt or leave for the new runes. I was told adapt or leave when they added shit to the game that isn't very fun (duskblade, stormrazors).

So what I was saying is I guess its just that time of the year to shout "adapt or leave"

AugustHeatHazeDec 18, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=MiD Enforcer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-12-17T22:47:55.135+0000)

I don't get why adc main complain about Mage taking over boy lane. HELLO??? MIDLANER?? There's bruiser (axxtrox), tank (Gallio), Mage, assassin, diver, etc. Why do you only want ADC to be in botlane? Where does it says that only adc can be not lane???? Jesus Chris! Adapt and be more flexible.

we can have more roles in the botlane! that would be rad! just make adc's viable in other lanes too, its only fair.

MiD EnforcerDec 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

we can have more roles in the botlane! that would be rad! just make adc's viable in other lanes too, its only fair.

Luciano is viable in all lane but I mean he's balance now.

AugustHeatHazeDec 18, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=MiD Enforcer,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Xwfl7zM,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2018-12-18T07:23:51.153+0000)

Luciano is viable in all lane but I mean he's balance now

luci is not the only adc! if you want to make other roles come into the botlane then ALL adc's need to be able to go somewhere else, tris, jinx, ashe, other roles get multiple lanes, adcs should too, its only fair.

{quoted}

No problem as long as they treat the class fairly and on the same level as every other one I have no problem with added flexibility

cool! my only problem when people start talking about diversity is that thier diversity is "make adc's unplayable and let us play mid laners in a second lane" which isn't ok! but you don't seem to be doing that.

vgamedudeDec 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

luci is not the only adc! if you want to make other roles come into the botlane then ALL adc's need to be able to go somewhere else, tris, jinx, ashe, other roles get multiple lanes, adcs should too, its only fair.

cool! my only problem when people start talking about diversity is that thier diversity is "make adc's unplayable and let us play mid laners in a second lane" which isn't ok! but you don't seem to be doing that.

Nope I want multiple champions to be playable in very many roles. I think if they did that then the game would be better balanced. Marksmen would no longer have their strength only compared to other marksmen and be the ONLY option for bot lane carry and there would also be option to have more varied playstyles with marksmens.

AugustHeatHazeDec 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nope I want multiple champions to be playable in very many roles. I think if they did that then the game would be better balanced. Marksmen would no longer have their strength only compared to other marksmen and be the ONLY option for bot lane carry and there would also be option to have more varied playstyles with marksmens.

that would be great! you are litererally the only person iv'e seen this hahahaha everyone else who wants "flexibility and diversity" just means nerfing adc's into the ground so they cant be played anywhere : ( i dont get it! it seems really mean spirited

saltranDec 18, 20182 votes

So your idea of balance is having botlane totally open to anyone while leaving adcs go to solo lanes/jungle ?

I mean, for the second part to happen you have to basically rework at least half of the marksmans.

vgamedudeDec 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So your idea of balance is having botlane totally open to anyone while leaving adcs go to solo lanes/jungle ?

I mean, for the second part to happen you have to basically rework at least half of the marksmans.

No? I want adcs to be able to be played in multiple roles along with all kinds of classes being able to be played in multiple roles.

saltranDec 19, 20182 votes

What you want it's only viable by reworking most adcs:

you can make simple nerfs that could make adcs obsolete in botlane but if at the same time you want these adcs to be played elswhere and dont be absolutely useless on any lane you have to rework them because if adcs with their current kits are able to go solo lanes it would mean that they are also stronger on botlane than any other class because they were designed to perform on a dúo lane with a supp.

Heos00Dec 18, 20184 votes

It doesn't have sense, there's only a very small amount of players that plays random stuff at botlane because adc's suck, isn't going to change that easily since riot fomented to play exclusively adc's on botlane through many years. I don't know why you would kill the 97% of the ''bot lane role'' player base just to satisfy that 3% that doesn't even care about the role and just play mages on bot for the memes and also you'r killing the ''RPG'' tag, before, this was an RPG with defined tasks on the team (support, tank, fighter/assassin, mage and a marksman), now seems like riot just wants everyone to play whatever they want and turn LoL an starter rpg game into a full blood moon event game where there's only oneshoots and everyone can be an assassin but without the low cd on respawn.

MiD EnforcerDec 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't have sense, there's only a very small amount of players that plays random stuff at botlane because adc's suck, isn't going to change that easily since riot fomented to play exclusively adc's on botlane through many years. I don't know why you would kill the 97% of the ''bot lane role'' player base just to satisfy that 3% that doesn't even care about the role and just play mages on bot for the memes and also you'r killing the ''RPG'' tag, before, this was an RPG with defined tasks on the team (support, tank, fighter/assassin, mage and a marksman), now seems like riot just wants everyone to play whatever they want and turn LoL an starter rpg game into a full blood moon event game where there's only oneshoots and everyone can be an assassin but without the low cd on respawn.

Clearly you are missing my point. Mage has not over come boy lane yet otherwise i will see it in my rank games.

Buzzkillington0Dec 18, 20186 votes

Mages have definitely come botlane lmao. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening. "supports" Zyra And right after 8.11 we had Heimerdinger and double mage bots. Even right now, Karthus and have 52%+ winrates in plat+ (lolalytics)

Summonah12369Dec 18, 20185 votes

Hmm, last time I checked people wanted to gut Jhin. Is it just Lucian now?

0 HogapuDec 19, 20184 votes

I wouldnt ben against a double gutting combo tbh

ThilmerDec 18, 20184 votes

Yesterday I played against Lucian mid.

He jumped on me at level 1 and dealt 60% of my HP bar with Q and two autos. Then he putfarmed me because I couldn't get near the minions without ris of dying.

Huge bullshit.

Buzzkillington0Dec 18, 20187 votes

He jumped on me at level 1 and dealt 60% of my HP bar with Q and two autos

People actually believe this. No wonder nobody takes boards seriously.

Anchorit WracajDec 17, 20183 votes

No matter how had u "buff" or "nerf" strong adc..ADC will remain GREY SCREEN Cause with all this shitty mobility,and insane burst and high damage...ADCS will keep getting one shoted. +Imobile champions(varus,kogmaw) will have no space in this game.Better tone the damage down...and ADC will have spot..now this is just one burst sh1t,where adcs can't survive

ValiantKillerDec 17, 20187 votes

{quoted}

No matter how had u "buff" or "nerf" strong adc..ADC will remain GREY SCREEN Cause with all this shitty mobility,and insane burst and high damage...ADCS will keep getting one shoted. +Imobile champions(varus,kogmaw) will have no space in this game.Better tone the damage down...and ADC will have spot..now this is just one burst sh1t,where adcs can't survive

And lucain is the great example of what you saying, he got mobility + burst damage + abit more tanky build than most of ADC

koshkyraDec 19, 20183 votes

nerf lucian

Upvoted.

LordGeovanniDec 19, 20182 votes

3rd adc buff of the year. not season/s year

ValiantKillerDec 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

3rd adc buff of the year. not season/s year

Cause they keep thinking it adc problem while matter of fact is the problem of the burst damage from adc like lucain, mf and assassin/divers ans ofcourse the support mage burst like brand

LordGeovanniDec 20, 20182 votes

burst crit too.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/memes/MHTPVPWU-when-you-finally-kill-the-overpowered-adc?comment=00000000