Just to be clear about Veigar

The Bearded Bard·Oct 1, 2015·41 votes·2,973 views

At any time since the rework you can find posts from me, defending him as not a trash pick. Always those posts were met with overwhelming downvotes and claims that his E was LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to hit if the enemy wasn't afk. His E has received no buffs, his W got a slight one, and a QOL buff to the Q passive and now he's everywhere and people are calling for nerfs. What you're seeing now is how Veigar has been since the rework. To everyone that continued the false rumor that he's trash; you are an idiot.

49 Comments

MiraweaveOct 1, 201515 votes

The W buff was pretty huge.

And he was totally fine before the buffs.

The Bearded BardOct 1, 20158 votes

I don't see much of a difference. What's a .25 second reduction when they're already stunned for 2.5 seconds?

SasogwaOct 1, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-01T17:15:23.827+0000)

I don't see much of a difference. What's a .25 second reduction when they're already stunned for 2.5 seconds?

Stun is more of a zoning tool. It's far from guaranteed. So the buff has nothing to do with linking a W when you stunned a target, obviously. It makes it much more reliable to link a W on a slowed target (slowed by someone else than Veigar ofc), and that is pretty huge. That's the difference between 'kinda reliable' spells and unlandable ones. Like, just as the rework came, when :

his Q had slower projectile speed and lower range
his E had a longer delay
his W had a longer delay

He WAS trash (below 40% winrate also, even if winrates are not the most trustable stats). It's as simple as that. Make a skillshot easier to land makes it more powerful, more versatile and the winrate skyrockets.

Another example would be Leblanc's W speed. The nerf had a big impact in winrate.

Ramza ParadiseOct 2, 20151 votes

yeah I feel the main reason Veigar seems so good is that his W is easier to use...

You can actually use it to zone an area/hit a slowed champion rather than NEEDING the stun for it to be worthwhile

Big LincolnOct 1, 20152 votes

the shortened delay makes item 3116 very appealing on him, since the 1 second slow is enough to make aiming it much easier with a Q-W combo

i wouldn't say it's core but he has very variable build-paths with it

MunchyManifestoOct 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Maokai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-10-01T17:15:23.827+0000)

I don't see much of a difference. What's a .25 second reduction when they're already stunned for 2.5 seconds?

It's the delay that was reduced, so instead of needing the enemy to stand in your targeted area for a full second, it's like .75 seconds, or whatever the real values are. In game, the change feels very significant.

SquidblimpOct 1, 20153 votes

There is still the same time to react for enemies when Veigar hits W. It is just less clunky and has no extra space between pressing and casting.

LuggOct 1, 20159 votes

He wasn't trash, but he was probably the weakest mage in the game behind Fiddle. The change to his W was exactly what he needed to be good again. He is a monster late game, but has a weak early game, just like a hyper carry is supposed to be.

If only Riot would do the same to Vayne Jinx

Craft ZeppelinOct 1, 20152 votes

I really have to agree with this. Most people are mixing up info of the old veigar and the reworked veigar. The weaker elements of his kit were highlighted greatly creating this false guesswork...really how many people even used him or laned against one

xXKUR0S4K1XxOct 1, 20152 votes

Well depending on when you are talking about defending him but his E did get quite a big buff after his rework I believe. There are other factors like the meta too. His winrate change from his rework release (45%) to his current state (53.5%) sure as hell does not come from nothing. Having said that I always thought veigar was viable. I played him quite a bit before and after his rework.

19902013RIP KiraOct 1, 20152 votes

1000 AP at soloQ is balanced according to veigars main because his stun now have 0.25 delay

Yeah he is gonna get nerfed he have way too many tools for free AP and its too much

AudiomancyOct 1, 201514 votes

[{quoted}](name=19902013RIP Kira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-10-01T17:32:05.647+0000)free AP and its too much

Having to spend 20 minutes farming with one ability just to be viable isn't 'free AP'.

19902013RIP KiraOct 1, 20153 votes

hmmthrowing Q to minions and take AP is pretty much free...

Plus taking assists and then 5 AP per assist is free AP

You dont need to be afk farming or do you miss the last buffs of veigar?

AudiomancyOct 1, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=19902013RIP Kira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-10-01T17:50:26.456+0000) hmmthrowing Q to minions and take AP is pretty much free...

Except you're now losing all lane pressure on the enemy champion and are likely to go OoM within a few waves.

19902013RIP KiraOct 1, 20152 votes

why you will pressure early with veigar wtf? Plus his passive restore mana...again wtf

AudiomancyOct 1, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=19902013RIP Kira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-01T18:47:31.267+0000)

why you will pressure early with veigar wtf? Plus his passive restore mana...again wtf

If you don't harass the enemy laner as Veigar you're gonna get shat on. If you farm with Q every time it's up you're gonna get shat on by your mana costs. Even with Equilibrium.

ThryaleOct 2, 20153 votes

yeah, all his passive does is make sure veigar has enough mana for 1 q. (assuming yer oom and farming with it as soon as it's off cd)

Photos of GhostsOct 2, 20152 votes

Exactly, you rarely are oom for a Q, but almost always unable to pull out a combo.

CatastropOct 2, 20151 votes

Don't even bother talking to this person. I had a lengthy chat with them on another thread and I felt like I was talking to a brick wall.

Chuck CharlesOct 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Except you're now losing all lane pressure on the enemy champion and are likely to go OoM within a few waves.

this. this is exactly what people who are QQing without actually trying veigar do not understand. your Q is your main most reliable damage source in short trades. especially early. its actually not as weak as people think it is. veigar damage isn't bad. but if you ONLY use it to farm your Q and play for your late game, you will simply be bullied out of lane constantly. thus you will get less CS and less AP than you would have if you just played more balanced.

I think Veigar is a little too strong right now, but the AP passive on Q is not why. I personally feel the W is simply too strong. The R could honestly be buffed if the W is nerfed. The R is his signature "blow you up" spell. But his W can blow up two or three poeple at once on a relatively short cooldown.

XelviOct 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chuck Charles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=00040000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-02T00:46:06.232+0000)

this. this is exactly what people who are QQing without actually trying veigar do not understand. your Q is your main most reliable damage source in short trades. especially early. its actually not as weak as people think it is. veigar damage isn't bad. but if you ONLY use it to farm your Q and play for your late game, you will simply be bullied out of lane constantly. thus you will get less CS and less AP than you would have if you just played more balanced.

I think Veigar is a little too strong right now, but the AP passive on Q is not why. I personally feel the W is simply too strong. The R could honestly be buffed if the W is nerfed. The R is his signature "blow you up" spell. But his W can blow up two or three poeple at once on a relatively short cooldown.

His W is still a skill shot and is generally reliant on landing Event Horizon. Even though I think EH is stupid as hell, it still gives his W some more credence for being as it is.

The Q farm is totally unnecessary though.

Corrupto123Oct 1, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Having to spend 20 minutes farming with one ability just to be viable isn't 'free AP'.

pretty much this

TastyMmmYumOct 1, 20152 votes

I love how people think just because Veigar has a farming mini-game, he needs to farm to be "viable". He's not like Nasus where your Q damage scales solely on the stacks you can farm, with no other ratios whatsoever.

Veigar has TWO abilities that have a 100% AP ratio on them. Almost no other ability in the game has a 1:1 AP scaling, but Veigar has two of those, one of which is a point and click that also scales with your target's AP. Even if he couldn't stack at all, just his items would give more ability scaling to him than any other mage. The Q stacks just make that even more ridiculous.

And his E is literally a CC that you don't even have to hit. If you can stun them, great! If not, then you just trapped them in a cage that they can't get out of for 3 seconds while your team engages on them. Its ability to split teams and control people even when it "misses" is super OP.

Froggen's been saying it for a while now, and the fact that Veigar's already been both picked and banned in the first day of worlds means the pros realize it too.

Bouncemaster ZacOct 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I love how people think just because Veigar has a farming mini-game, he needs to farm to be "viable". He's not like Nasus where your Q damage scales solely on the stacks you can farm, with no other ratios whatsoever.

Veigar has TWO abilities that have a 100% AP ratio on them. Almost no other ability in the game has a 1:1 AP scaling, but Veigar has two of those, one of which is a point and click that also scales with your target's AP. Even if he couldn't stack at all, just his items would give more ability scaling to him than any other mage. The Q stacks just make that even more ridiculous.

And his E is literally a CC that you don't even have to hit. If you can stun them, great! If not, then you just trapped them in a cage that they can't get out of for 3 seconds while your team engages on them. Its ability to split teams and control people even when it "misses" is super OP.

Froggen's been saying it for a while now, and the fact that Veigar's already been both picked and banned in the first day of worlds means the pros realize it too.

My sentiments exactly. Veigar has always been broken. One of the most powerful area control tools in the game, along with high area burst and long range, on top of being able to simply click someone once and delete them from full hp with one ability that requires zero thought or effort.

RisenDarkKnightOct 2, 20151 votes

Ok but he can but ap costs almost every other ap champion gold. So he'll have way more ap than the enemy midlaner at the cost of some mana, but between blue buff, his passive, and mana regen items it's not much of a cost at all. Add that to the fact the enemy ap mid is often forced to buy one of merc treads/abbysal/qss so they don't get one shot by his ult he tends to end up with 3000 more gold worth of ap by 30 mins if he picks up a couple assists. Possibly more if he wins lane or picks up kills. Sure he has a weak early game, but it's not reasonable to say you just have to win the game early in solo que, where veigar can be used as a counterpick to another ap champ with a weak early game and one player winning lane does not mean his team can actually end the game quickly. IMO they have buffed him too much. He was too weak after his nerfs but this last buff was one too many. That said he is super fun to play now.

HopFroggerOct 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=19902013RIP Kira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tzTBxPM0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-10-01T17:32:05.647+0000)

1000 AP at soloQ is balanced according to veigars main because his stun now have 0.25 delay

Yeah he is gonna get nerfed he have way too many tools for free AP and its too much

The one and only time I've had 1550 AP was with Veigar. What a fun game. :P

ThryaleOct 2, 20151 votes

were you here back in the day where 5 AArod Karthii could get over 1k ap and score penta kills with just his ult?

One Bind MorganaOct 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

were you here back in the day where 5 AArod Karthii could get over 1k ap and score penta kills with just his ult?

karthus ult is 60% ap

you're better off buying magic pen and liandry's/rylais on him

ThryaleOct 3, 20151 votes

liandri's didn't exist back then. the best late game build for karthus was literally 5 AArods and a dcap or something similar to that. (back then, aa rod actually stacked)

Big LincolnOct 1, 20152 votes

honestly he probably needs a nerf to his early or a slight range reduction on his Q now

i don't think Veigar is OP, but the boards has already selected him for slaughter

MarthianOct 1, 20152 votes

The boards aren't always correct (People kept saying MF was trash tier, and yet at that time, she had one of the highest win rates for ADCs in Diamond+, and for me, she carried me from Silver IV~ to Gold V, and not even with some oddball build, it was just a classic ADC build.)

Also honestly, there isn't really a trash tier. There are definitely some champions better than others, but they are all usable in the right conditions (generally, a lot of said conditions aren't hard to pull off either. Some poppy player was doing extremely well in higher elos despite being considered trash.)

WyvernonOct 1, 20152 votes

So... you liked him before he was cool? #veigarhipster

IpolsOct 1, 20152 votes

At any time since the rework you can find posts from me, defending him as not a trash pick. Always those posts were met with overwhelming downvotes

Same. I got hundreds of downvotes

Raid Boss MordeOct 1, 20152 votes

People just liked to circle-jerk that Veigar was bad. I even got downvoted into oblivion for saying he's still fine, and now look. HA!

Very Hard EngageOct 2, 20152 votes

to everyone who thinks this is raw gold. just remember, i can put extra damage on wukong W and Wukong's win rate will rise, exclusively for dealing more damage than before.

this is what riot has been doing with veigar, last 4 changes were nothing but buffs on his current kit.

his win rate is inflated.

his kit is not synergistic, fluid, special, or thought provoking, its literally just positioning and following up on your team mates actions, which anyone can do. but veigars raw STAT POWER, is so ridiculously out of control right now that it literally carries him up despite his poor kit.

veigar still cant 1v1 anyone, and anyone who wants to shut down a veigar has the option to do so, i have called for changes in his kit, not stat buffs or nerfs.

One Bind MorganaOct 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

to everyone who thinks this is raw gold. just remember, i can put extra damage on wukong W and Wukong's win rate will rise, exclusively for dealing more damage than before.

this is what riot has been doing with veigar, last 4 changes were nothing but buffs on his current kit.

his win rate is inflated.

his kit is not synergistic, fluid, special, or thought provoking, its literally just positioning and following up on your team mates actions, which anyone can do. but veigars raw STAT POWER, is so ridiculously out of control right now that it literally carries him up despite his poor kit.

veigar still cant 1v1 anyone, and anyone who wants to shut down a veigar has the option to do so, i have called for changes in his kit, not stat buffs or nerfs.

veigar can't 1v1 anyone

???

i've 1 shot bruisers with just qr

literally no one can come within 1000~ range of you without dying instantly late game, and even at level 6 his burst is formidable

i mean, he's not super broken or anything but veigar can definitely 1v1 plenty of champs

Very Hard EngageOct 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

veigar can't 1v1 anyone

???

i've 1 shot bruisers with just qr

literally no one can come within 1000~ range of you without dying instantly late game, and even at level 6 his burst is formidable

i mean, he's not super broken or anything but veigar can definitely 1v1 plenty of champs

35minutes into the game, with free farm, sure. then he can 1hko an AP CARRY, or a low hp ADC who didnt build any of merc scimitar, banshes veil, or GA.

and before then? literally worthless without his team, and the other 3 members of the enemy team will put some type of peel and negate the champion entirely.

stop pretending the only portion of the game is the late game 5v5 scenario. theres so many ways to put a dent into veigar.

XelviOct 2, 20152 votes

I think he has too much honestly. The farming AP Nasus-style Q has to go. Nasus is highly dependant on farm to do damage - Veigar isn't. Nasus doesn't walk up and one-shot you with his ult, Veigar does, plus he has a massive zoning tool that's also a stun on top of it.

The only thing left that's balanced in Veigar's kit is Dark Matter.

SaiannaOct 2, 20152 votes

and a QOL buff to the Q passive

QOL doesn't change numbers. Or anything like that. It's just simple buff ;)

And about rest of your thread. I've called Veig thrash tier early after his rework, because Veigar couldn't stun anyone by himself. He required some sort of CC from his teammates to lock the target.

Riot did adress that by slightly increasing casttime (or something like that). From that moment Veigar became pretty OK to me.

Any next things Riot did were simply overkill.. But.. That's something we, board, wanted. Imo lets just leave Veigar be for some time. Imo his stats will balance out after everyone got used to changes.

ZzEslIolZQOct 2, 20152 votes

When you have to lie to prove a point maybe you don't have a fucking point in the first place.

A LiberalOct 2, 20152 votes

Ugh I finally got around to picking him up like a month ago and now he's going t get banhammered. ;-; it was a good run my master of evil

KICK OUT AT 2Oct 2, 20152 votes

Since his rework...

E range was increased
E delay decreased
Q range was increased
E stops dashes
Luden's echo added
Rabadons gets 5% more AP
Archeangels AP buffed
Mana regen in his passive increased to 2% from 1%
Assassins absent from meta, meaning not much pressure in the backline

And just recently he got the faster W and 5 AP per assists, about 50 free AP per game.

So he has changed a lot since the rework, receiving only buffs. Not sure where you get your info from OP, but you're really misinformed.

AezanthyaOct 1, 20151 votes

Just gut his base damage. They are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too high for the insane ap ratio he has on them + all his free ap.

WyrmbladeOct 2, 20151 votes

I did the same thing with Ryze right when he was strong, right before he was gutted.

Feels shitty, man.

Photos of GhostsOct 2, 20151 votes

I always said he only needed the W to come down slightly faster, because with the delay on E you're gonna put down E, move out to be out of reah for Zed's ult, and move back to W in IF you caught anyone. This lead often to the W falling after the E stun had already ended.

Davy CrockettOct 2, 20151 votes

If anyone wants a challenge, I can hit them with an E more often than not.

fukimissHarambeOct 2, 20151 votes

I agree that post-rework veigar was still very strong, but part of the reason he is so "in" right now is the juggernauts. Veigar has the tools to kite then while still doing massive AOE damage to them and one shotting carries. If the meta hadn't changed after his re-work he would be no where near as good as he is right now

insaiyanbaccaOct 2, 20151 votes

pretty much, i made posts about how he was fin after the veigar rework on the threads about how trash veigar was and always got quite a few downvotes. :/