Precision is blatantly superior to the other pen points in the Ferocity Tree, it's not even a contest
Unless the Keystone points in offense are much better than Thunderlords people will still take it because Precision is too good atm
Dominick Destine5 votesPrecision is inferior against tanks but superior against non-tanks.
I'd say ADC and APC have more incentive to go Ferocity over Cunning.
Twitch Chat2 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=txvweXjQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-14T21:48:12.947+0000)
Precision is inferior against tanks but superior against non-tanks.
I'd say ADC and APC have more incentive to go Ferocity over Cunning.
Except the level 18 break even point is 200 armor. The only time it's even a tough choice is vs 700 armor rammus and even then you'll be giving up a lot of damage in lane and against squishy targets.
DanceDevil2 votesExcept the level 18 break even point is 200 armor. The only time it's even a tough choice is vs 700 armor rammus and even then you'll be giving up a lot of damage in lane and against squishy targets.
it's 200 armor... until you consider that you get both penetrations at once. Then if you deal even the slightest bit of magic damage it's a lot more than that... So yeah. % armor penetration just sucks major D.
Drackolus1 votesSince Thunderlord's deals magic damage and everyone but 
auto attacks...
ProfDrDeath1 votesPrecision is only inferior against full-on tanks, though. Not just bruisers with 1-2 defensive items.
For reference, the breakeven point is 79-200 Armor (after a potential LW item) and 47-120 MR (again, after a potential Void Staff). On a 25-80 base Armor tank, that is 123-298 Armor before (PBE buffed) LW items. For MR, 72-185 MR before Void Staff.
218 bonus Armor on a tank is 208 before the resistance bonus mastery. 201 before flat Armor runes are added. For 200 armor from items, you'd more than Frozen Heart and Thornmail - and that combination lacks any health.
185 MR on a tank is 176 before resistance bonus mastery. 122 without base MR. 110 without flat MR runes. Again, 110 MR is more than Merc Treads and either Spirit Visage or Banshee's Veil.
BasedJarvan4204 votesADCs are still gonna take thunderlord because warlord isn't relevant until you buy crit items. By that time you're out of laning phase which is a major determining factor of the game, so it's like you played the entire lane phase without a keystone if you took warlord's.
Stormraider's (old and new versions) I can see working on someone like Gangplank cuz he can just burst you with a barrel and chase you down. Rengar is good with it too and maybe Talon.
Deathfire is only good on dot mages
Fervor got nerfed into the ground and this new change means nothing cuz you can't build the stacks on creeps. If you're hitting someone 10 times they are probably gonna die anyways so the stacks just aren't that worth it.
Thunderlord still reigns supreme because it works on everyone. You hit someone 3 times and you get a huge burst of damage starting at the very beginning of the game. No special conditions or any bullshit like that. It's really good in short trades which is what's happening most in lane phase.
UB3R 1337 H4X2 votesThough a very niche situation Fervor can work well on 
and 
The Yetii Rider4 votesSpeak for yourselves. You guys enjoy your flat penetration, I'm going for that sweet sweet 6% max health heal on Baron kill.
Jungle Lux God3 votesHonestly, I don't think Precision is an option when the ferocity keystones look so good.
On DPS champions, all three of the Ferocity keystones are starting to look significantly better than Thunderlord's Decree if you can use them well, which wasn't quite the case this patch. If your champion can use them well then there's no reason to go into Cunning for Precision because the keystones in Ferocity are so much better.
Llanite3 votesSo your logic is, people would pick a worse mastery because precision gives them 1% more dps than battering? Doesnt sound plausible.
DeathBurst1 votesIt's more than 1%, and Thunderlord is not flat-out worse. For starter, it's useful from gamestart, whereas Warlord needs Crit items and Deathfire needs AP.
Llanite1 votesFor starter, the thing does 10 + 30% bonus AD which is ~15 dmg = 1/5 of an AA. Not enough to be considered "useful".
At 7, it does as most dmg as one AA, which is already mid game. Warlord starts to shine at 50% crit (=1 crit item + cloak), which you should get at lvl 11 or so.
So thunder is insignificant 1-6, slightly better than warlord 7-11, and overshadowed by warlord 11-end game.
DeathBurst1 votesWell, so it's not flat-out worse, and with Precisions on top of that, some people may actually go that route, even in the next patch. Not saying it's optimal, but it sure looks like it's a possible option.
LadyRenly2 votesjust because one mastery in one tree is better than one in the other, it's not going to mean that everybody is going to stop using the entire tree
Abyssphere1 votesjust because one mastery in one tree is better than one in the other, it's not going to mean that everybody is going to stop using the entire tree
It's not that people are abandoning Ferocity overall, but that they're putting 12 points in while putting 18 into Cunning. And it's really impossible to justify going further than 12 points in Ferocity when the pen in the Cunning tree is just... stupidly good in comparison to the pen in the Ferocity tree.
Precision is ridiculous to the point of warping keystone choice around it.
Wheatloaf1 votesThunderlord's level scaling doesn't really help the matter, especially because high base damage works well with flat pen.
Sohleks2 votesSince the inception of these trees I thought the % pen masteries were a bit underpowered compared to the stats available in the same tier in the other trees. That's ok if the final ferocity keystones are super heavy hitters (they are not currently unless you're melee with bonus attack speed). I think another 1 or 2 percent here would have been good as an indirect nerf to tanks instead of the direct attack on tanks we've been doing.
Remlap12231 votesYep, you're right, precision is so blatantly OP, I totally get precision on Dr. Mundo. To hell with making the tank tankier, HYBRID PENETRATION OP U GUIZE
The Bíg Ticket1 votesExcept that Hybrid Pen is actually really good on Mundo...most Mundo players run Hybrid Pen marks.
Hard4Hamsters1 votesDisclaimer: Longish post
I think there is some merit to this statement, but the offensive side of the Cunning Tree itself is mostly for Assassin archetypes and burst champions who thrive with Thunderlords and Precision. A lot of champions CAN fit this archetype with their all in potential; if you use all your abilities and auto attack the enemy to try to kill them, there is likely to be a lot of burst involved in this all-in. Precision certainly helps with this, but I think Thunderlord's Decree is the main problem.
I think a problem with Thunderlord's right now is that the 3 hits that proc the effect do not have to be within a short time frame. I also think that DFT is still in a pretty bad spot for AP mages right now who cannot output continuous DPS in the form of DOT or a continuum of spells (
). This is why even poke mages, who I think were meant to want to opt for Deathfire Touch, are using Thunderlord's Decree instead because the base damage on it is high enough to warrant them getting it over DFT if they cannot continuously hit their opponents with spells.
I think that there needs to be more work on Thunderlords as it sits right now, starting with giving Thunderlord's decree a shorter time window to keep the procs up. Look at Stormraider's for example, where the only way to activate the effect is to deal 30% of an enemy champion's health within 2 seconds (not hard if you're Annie). This indicates to the player that they should use everything they have to try and burst down a champion. Thunderlord's decree seems to have a 5 second window before your stacks reset on a champion. That means you can use up to 15 seconds to hit your enemy 3 times and proc the passive. This makes it INCREDIBLY abusable during the laning phase (especially if you have a range advantage) as you can tap your opponent with a ranged ability or AA, avoid harass that your enemy throws back at you and continue last hitting and just remember to keep poking them until the mastery procs and you chunk your opponent.
A more balanced version of this mastery aimed towards burst champions and assassins would be to have it so the 3 attacks must occur within 3 seconds of each other. So after the first attack you would have 3 seconds to get 2 more attacks off to proc the effect. This would eliminate the scenario where Ziggs is throwing a Q at you or auto harassing you every few seconds and still getting the benefit of the mastery.
I think another thing to consider doing with Thunderlord's is reducing its base damage just a tad. Just something to consider as it seems to just outdamage Deathfire Touch in most situations for mages (until substantial AP is built). I think yet another thing that could be done is reducing its effectiveness on ranged champions, sort of how they reduced Fervor's effectiveness on ranged champions. They could just hit the base damage here. For example: "the target takes 10 - 180 (based on level) [50% effective on ranged champions]". Honestly, this sounds a little confusing but someone at Riot could probably word it better, but I feel like ranged ADC's probably shouldn't get away with dominating the laning phase because they have a range advantage and should be looking to scale with Fervor or Warlord's which scale with Attack Speed and Crit.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter right now. I think Thunderlord's should be applicable to a wide variety of champions, but its current effectiveness is much too high right now. I do think that Precision is a partial reason to invest in the Cunning tree, but it is still Thunderlord's that is bringing people to the party. I don't think that Riot will be satisfied if the changes to the Keystones (currently on the PBE) do not steer people away from Thunderlord's as much as they would like and I honestly feel like 6.1 will still be Thunderlord dominated as it is highly abusable no matter what lane you play in and is simply the best mastery for the laning phase.
Tell me your thoughts on the matter. I might post this as a new discussion entirely on why Thunderlord's is so dominant and what can be done. Now that I think about it, there is probably a Youtuber who has put up a video discussing this better than I can, but I'd still like to hear from other people. Peace.
