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@Riot Any plans for Pantheon in 2016? Or any rioters just willing to chat about our friendly baker?

Sorgklaan·Oct 4, 2015·12 votes·4,751 views

Pantheon has been neglected for a while, and for good reason, there have been plenty of other champions who have been higher priority reworks. But while other champions get their facelifts, pantheon's age is starting to show, and while items like Titanic Hydra have given him a bit of an edge, it's clear he has issues.

His visuals, kit, and gameplay are all very much outdated.

The main problem with Pantheon is his focus, what is he? Is he a tank? Fighter? Assassin? He has the attributes of all of them, but because of that, he suffers from either being tanky and doing no damage, or having plenty of damage but being unable to take advantage of it, right now he's mostly a just lane bully against certain picks due to his targetted spear throw, while not doing much unless he snowballs massively.

So in my opinion, he needs to either be shifted towards being either an assassin or a fighter, or else he needs something more to allow him to be the odd hybrid he currently is.

Plus his abilities just don't feel that good or satisfying, a lot of this is visuals, but there is certainly some work that could be done. His Q is a boring, and his E feels as if it channels too damn long for how little damage it actually does, those are the two abilities that most need work I feel. His W and ult feel fine a they are and would benefit from better visuals.

Pantheon could be a lot more FUN to play, he has a lot of potential.

32 Comments

RalanrOct 4, 20157 votes

A Pantheon rework thread? ults in.

Now many times I have heard Pantheon is in a good place at the moment and for the most part I agree. He is in a decent place, but he's not rewarding to play. He's powerful early game, but he falls off pretty damn hard late game. Even if he's fed, but that'd be counter productive if he was fed since he'd deny kills for his allies. Pantheon is not a selfish warrior, he's a soldier!

Personally the only abilities on Pantheon I do not like are his E active and W. Pantheon is not someone who can last long in a 1v1 fight, he needs to end it quickly and a channeled cone attack with a short range doesn't help him. I enjoy his Q, I'd be fine with that being point and click, Gangplank's Q still is. His W should be a skill shot, allowing an escape.

But I'm just saying what I'd like with skills. This is not the direction we should consider when thinking of his rework, we need to think of his theme.

Now, what is Pantheon? : The Artisan of War. So he's skilled in the trade of war? What makes him any better than some other mercenary? He is a warrior of Rakkor! A paragon of his culture, a culture centered around the art of war.

Artisan of War? More like Paragon of War!

I imagine Pantheon as someone who uses strategy while on the battlefield, gathering where he needs to be and who he needs to kill. Now this sounds very assassinish yes, but I see him as leading the charge and aspiring his allies with confidence at his courage. He fights for no ideal, but for the survival of his people in the only way they know how. A soldier in a world of warriors.

I may be jumping around a bit, it's late for me.

SorgklaanOct 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

A Pantheon rework thread? ults in.

Absolutely right about the E, and as for the W, I suppose it would be best if it were a skillshot that allowed him an escape. That's taking him in a very assassin'y route though. Anybody else have any idea on the flipside? What if he were made into more of a fighter?

RalanrOct 4, 20151 votes

That's a bit hard to consider as I've been playing him like an assassin most of the time. I'd imagine as a fighter his passive would be amped to not just block tower shots, but also skill shots.

To be honest, I wouldn't be against him keeping fighter/assassin classification. Though I'd love to hear what others think on that.

BastionKrossOct 5, 20153 votes

I completely agree about his E. It just doesn't flow well with the rest of his kit. If Riot is intent on keeping it, perhaps it could grant some defensive stats while it's being channeled.

Making W a skillshot is something I could go either way on. If it was a skillshot it would probably be changed to an AoE stun, and could be used for more mobility as an escape; maybe even a wall jump. However, having a point and click stun in the League of Mobility is a huge deal. Panth can shut down even the most mobile foes, and we need more champions that can do that, not less.

Finally, I think his power curve needs to be discussed. Currently, he's strong early, okay (or still strong if fed) mid, and absolutely terrible late. LeeSin mains will never be slow to point out that Lee falls off late game; and whenever a Pantheon mains hears that they just laugh right in the Lee main's face. The difference is, while Lee can still be of use to his team with the utility he brings, all Panth has got is that stun. If Panth builds more damage to try and be relevant late, he's too squishy. If Panth builds tanky items to survive late, he does no damage and brings no utility.

It's a similar problem to the one that Garen had before his juggernaut rewrok. The solution with him seemed to be to shave a slight amount of power from his early game to significantly boost his late. Panth might be able to benefit from that. Maybe we could slip some %HP damage in there, or give Panth more utility somehow.

RalanrOct 5, 20153 votes

I think for everyone's sake we should avoid %hp damage.

Though utility would be interesting. I think upgrading his passive to scale in later game might do that. First it blocks basic attacks and empowered AA damage. At 11 it would block secondary effects like stuns or silences from empowered AA. And at 16 he could block the damage of skillshots.

Though this might step on Braum. He'd still be slowed if he blocked Ashe's ult and splash damage would still occur.

BastionKrossOct 5, 20153 votes

The %HP damage was more of a suggestion to increase his late game damage. There's only so many ways you can do that other than just increasing numbers. %HP is one, true damage is another, and finally mixed damage is the third. With Vayne running around being the pain in the ass that she is right now, people probably wouldn't bite for more true damage. %HP is usually reserved for tanks and tanky bruisers whose damage tends to fall off late game like Panth, so I thought that was the best fit. I just don't see much cause to try and give Panth magic damage, so mixed probably wouldn't work.

But all that assumes we're adding more damage late game, adding more utility is another solution. The improved passive you suggested is something neat, and I don't think Braum would mind since Panth has significantly less control over when he can and can not block skillshots for his team compared to mustache man. With this route, Panth would start out as an assassin/fighter and transition into bodyguard. That would make him more like LeeSin . That niche is already filled pretty well by Lee however, so Panth would have to directly contend with Riot's favorite son. That's probably not a fight Panth wants, unless he brings things to the niche that Lee does not late game. The stun is a nice start, but I feel like he may need just one more little utility to compete with the blind monk.

What that "little utility" is, I can't think of. Armor/MR shred is an option, but Panth loves his item 3071 so doubling up on that may not be wise. Silence is a thing, but Riot (and most players) aren't too hot on assassins having silences. Attack speed slow? Might make early game Panth too good of a duelist. A movement speed slow? Everybody and their momma has one of those, or builds it from an item. I guess we could take the easy way out and have his stun last longer at higher levels. Not the most inventive solution, but it's doable.

RalanrOct 5, 20153 votes

Crazy idea: what if his AD scaled with armor pen?

Honestly unless we can decide what Pantheon should shift towards (assassin or bodyguard) late game then figuring what to give him will be all the more difficult.

BastionKrossOct 6, 20152 votes

Interesting idea. Are there enough sources of ArPen to pull it off, you think? Runes, Masteries, item 3714 , item 3035 , item 3142 , item 3071 . Not a very diverse set of items, but it would depend on the scaling how many he would have to build in the average game. If the scaling was high enough, Panth could hypothetically build two ArPen items and then go tank and be just fine damage-wise.

If we keep his base damages high, that would shape the power curve to strong early, weaker mid since the base damage is starting to fall off and Panth needs lots of gold for his pen items, and then strong late game once he gets his items together. The problem is that if Panth were to get fed early, he could snowball enough to be strong mid and then transition right into a strong late game. This would have him strong at all phases of the game, and that's dangerous. You'd have to cut some of his early game power and his snowball potential if you go this route. (Which isn't a bad thing, IMO)

Ideally, I like the bodyguard route. The game starts with Panth on the front lines being aggressive and thirsty for blood, then at some point his knowledge of battle tames his bloodlust and guides him to protect his important allies when his aggressiveness stops paying off. Seems to fit his character more than someone who's constantly assassinating. Panth is a warrior; he'll stab you in the front, not the back.

RalanrOct 6, 20152 votes

item 3707 and item 3142 (as well as item 3134 ) are sadly the only items that have armor penetration bonus. item 3071 and item 3035 have ways of reducing or avoiding armor in general. I did not realize this when I thought of the idea. They'd have to add a lot more armor pen items if they did this and with the armor nerfs I don't see them doing so.

Bodyguarding does seem like the better end result option. So what if LeeSin usually ends up being a bodyguard in late game? He's got about 6 to 7 abilities anyway. Besides, there can always be more than one champion that goes into a similar role, they just don't have to do it the same way. Pantheon (if my passive upgrade idea is in play for example) would be a more "take the blows" sort of bodyguard, he'd become more pseudo-tank than people already see him as.

RandomoniumOct 5, 20153 votes

I agree that Pantheon suffers from an identity crisis and falls off too much in the last game to be anything more than a counter pick in certain situations.

I also agree that his W and E active are what needs to be changed on him. His W needs to be a skill shot with a small AoE stun so he can have more impact in team fights or use his W to escape. Having a E that is channeled feels so slow and weird for his play style and I hope they come up with something more unique and fitting for Rakkor's finest warrior.

RalanrOct 5, 20152 votes

Shame. It's probably because of worlds, but not many people seem to have an interest in discussing the crater making wannabe baker.

SorgklaanOct 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Shame. It's probably because of worlds, but not many people seem to have an interest in discussing the crater making wannabe baker.

Yeah, a bit disappointing. :_:

RalanrOct 5, 20151 votes

So how would you see him go as more of a fighter?

EvilMerodachOct 5, 20152 votes

I feel like Pantheon ulti should have a smaller impact point, but, also, make sort of a gravity well? Like, somewhat item 3800 active-ish? Allies run faster toward the impact after you've left initial cast point, and a few seconds after you land. Enemies run away from it slightly slower. (Not much, talking 20% slow in a...maybe 1/3th larger circle than his current ulti AoE, and only starts slowing after they can see the red circle.

That would make him more "leading the charge and aspiring his allies"

Kind of the guy you'd want to take if you want to force full on 5v5 team fights, (vs teams that mostly want to pick people off for being outside the group).

RalanrOct 5, 20151 votes

As long as they don't shorten the cast radius. I don't think my heart could take that.

EvilMerodachOct 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

As long as they don't shorten the cast radius. I don't think my heart could take that.

Nah, I mean the point of damage when he slams down. Like the range now is 5500 (cast) / 700 (AoE) Keep the 5500, drop the 700 down to...maybe 600 or 550? With a 700 or 750 range minor slow, and 850 range speed boost for allies?

I just feel like he'd have to give something up for gaining the ally speed boost/enemy slow. Less damage or less likelihood of hurting multiple enemies seems good. I mean mostly the ulti's not for damage anyway. (I get SOOO mad when I play with a panth that ulti's somewhere he could have just walked to and AA'd someone in less time.)

I've always seen it as a (somewhat) global threat and a way to start a fight when otherwise you wouldn't have been able to.

RalanrOct 5, 20152 votes

People rarely hit opponents with his ult anyway. Anytime I have wasn't with that intention, rather I was trying to jump in from behind or I ult into a bush my enemy happens to be in (I love how bushes hide the ult reticle. Part of me hopes they'll never change that but they might in a rework).

AMYS GRAVEOct 5, 20152 votes

I actually really enjoy pantheons current kit. He could use some love in the visuals but his gameplay i think is good enough as is.

RalanrOct 6, 20152 votes

He's fun, no denying that. It's more a personal reason why I'd like him to be reworked. He's got a frustrating power curve.

howstheweather13Oct 4, 20151 votes

Up vote. Pantheon and Urgot rework long overdue.

RalanrOct 4, 20151 votes

Man Urgot needs some love.

Earl EulrichOct 4, 20151 votes

the only thing Panth needs is the goddamn Baker-Skin. apart from that he´s among the best junglers atm and still a fierce 1v1 laner as a counterpick...and also a viable support at times.

RalanrOct 4, 20151 votes

He needs a VU in general.

Support Pantheon? Can you elaborate?

SorgklaanOct 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He needs a VU in general.

Support Pantheon? Can you elaborate?

Never seen it personally. I'm assuming it's just a super aggressive kill lane where you abuse spears.

RalanrOct 4, 20152 votes

So Nidalee ADC?

ALL THE SPEARS!

EvilMerodachOct 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Never seen it personally. I'm assuming it's just a super aggressive kill lane where you abuse spears.

Spear poke, trade AA's a LOT, every time you can get your passive up. Attack minions a lot to get your passive up more (without stealing cs..just AA the canon minion or any full hp minion, also buy item 3302 ). Stun the adc for trying to cs (pretty easy to deny their canon minion kill that way..that can add up pretty quick in gold lost).

And of course tower dives (with the passive blocking a hit, can mean a lot).

It's sort of a cheese, and probably only good once. (Like...play against someone, they don't understand, so they lose lane over it, but probably if that person ever has to lane against support Pantheon again, they'll probably not lose..but..you'll also probably never play against that person again..so..)

Also useless past Gold level play..but bronze/silver/low gold, pretty much free lane win if your adc has a clue what they/you are doing.

Problem is not knowing what to do with yourself past lane. You don't get the gold for damage..and you're a B level tank at best. At least you're decent at dragon control though.

RalanrOct 5, 20151 votes

Confusion Fu...the most ancient and destructive art at first hand.

Z StatisticOct 5, 20151 votes

He's gotten so many nerfs over the past season. The change in the BC recipe hurt his momentum. Sure, he can build Brutalizer and then BC, but then he has to build an entire new item instead of being halfway to another one like before. Then it was tank meta making his early game harder. Then defensive items became significantly easier to rush, And then it was the mana regen nerf from the utility tree.

It pretty much means that your only option is either to farm with flask+3 and try to get to mid game through simply grabbing cs or to go for first blood with sword+3 and be teetering on the edge of a knife.

There's not too much you can do for Panth though because tbh his state in Season 4 was pretty bad in terms of play. He could stomp anyone and then steamroll the game easily. None of that has changed; it's just gotten weaker. You'd need to change several of the mechanics and scalings to make him both playable but also fun for both the user and the enemy.

RalanrOct 5, 20152 votes

Personally I don't like how much his early game is emphasized. Experimenting with different items hurts your power level too much and you fall off easier if you can't shut down your opponent.

I wish he didn't fall off so easily.

Edit: Brings up another problem with Pantheon, he has a lack of itemization options. Due to his high mana costs you'd think item 3004 would be a great choice right? WRONG. Building item 3070 early game only weakens him, and working toward a late game item (which to be honest Pantheon would be able to upgrade to item 3042 quickly because of how much he relies on his spells for damage over his AA) would be counterproductive since he falls off late. So he has to shut down his opponent in lane early, which means he needs items like item 3134 (which now only builds into item 3142 or item 3707 if you're jungling. They aren't bad, but I don't believe ghostblade is a great item for Pantheon) and often rush item 3071 and maybe item 3035 if his opponent has a large amount of armor.

I won't say I'm a great Pantheon player, I usually end up building item 3071 , item 3156 (against AP heavy) item 3035 (when they have lots of armor) item 3143 or item 3110 (the mana helps, but I rarely go heart now), and my last two slots either get filled with item 3742 , item 3116 (I only buy this if my opponents keep running away from me and I can't get them. And if I can spare the cash) item 3074 , item 3714 or item 3707 if I'm jungling (Sabre comes in handy sometimes, stalkers is usually better sadly) and I almost always carry item 2041 with me because it refills whenever I shop. Even if it's measly later game I keep it because I find little reason to sell it.

Sadly because he's an AD caster, any item that could benefit him could be wildly abused by a whole bunch of other champions. Every time I hope that the item overhaul in the marksmen update (or speculated anyway) will provide options for Pantheon, I'm told that it would most likely not due to abuse of item power.

KONO RUBICK DAOct 5, 20151 votes

Morello said that in 2013, they wanted to change his ulti and W. They (in my opinion) scrapped those changes like the ww rework

RalanrOct 5, 20151 votes

Doesn't it take about 8-12 months to make a champion? How much goes into reworking?

Though they probably put it down the list of priorities.

Whore DealerNov 1, 20161 votes

Pantheon now is waaay too much powerful in early game and has pretty much guaranteed late game because of how much aggressive in lane he can be. His mana costs are too low and he can throw spears pretty much nonstop early till you back, especially if he starts with potion of corruption. I think that this champions seems outdated too, because 2 of his skills are used directly on selected target and there is the worst part - his ultimate which is totally retarded in my opinion.

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