Pyke May Be a Support, But He's Not a Warden

RookPusher··4 votes·1,313 views

After maybe 3 games with a Pyke in it, I'm going to project that this was a major fuck-up and the day will come where he'll need a total overhaul. It's not a data thing, it's a Sociological thing.

Pyke is an Assassin Support. And I can't help but shake the feeling this was an attempt by Riot to encourage people to play the support role. IMO, this was the wrong way to encourage people. This only exacerbated the bad parts of the Autofill Support with Riot Sanctioning of the aggressive style.

If they had wanted to encourage more people to play support, it would have been best if they did things that put their role front and center. Come up with better ways to track how often someone was "saved" by a support being there. Not after the game, or on the website in match stats. In the game at present. Why tab & a mouse over for ward score, just put it in the KDA. If takedowns have been phased in, why not just put them together so dummy mid-laners can't accuse supports of having bad KDAs because "You have no kills."

All this assumes Riot wanted to build-up support enlistments and (and this is probably their main priority) reduce queue times. Maybe they didn't. But that's hard for me to believe this wasn't the goal.

The end result of Pyke in his current iteration is that by mid game people forget they're supports. They farm away from the team come into team fights after 3 people are dead looking for some ult kills, and they're trigger happy for kills in the laning phase because you've created a champ who makes that beneficial.

But the biggest issue I have with Pyke's involvement is that you've invited people into the role of Support who don't really get the ethos. The real support players, the Wardens, were not asking for the ability to get more kills. We always were able to sign-up as mid-lane Kat and go for kills. The real support players I've spoken with here on the boards are people who value the assist role. That's a foreign concept to a ton of players here (hence the insta-queue for supports) but it was something we appreciated. There's a few supports I play that have turned absolutely tragic bot lanes into S's for ADCs. There's not a lot of value in that, we don't get high praise. It's a rare bird that thanks their Support, but it really didn't matter. I didn't queue up for applause. I came to restructure team fights and battle fields and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Pyke feels to me like an assassin bail-out for queue times. He's not a support (IMO). He's a champ that lets assassins be assassins with shorter queue times without sinking the team. But the problem is he will sink teams because behind the legal kills is a mentality that doesn't care about the people around him. He's not here for you, he's here for Pyke. That's fine on an assassin, I expect that. But when a team fails to have a support players, over the long haul they'll feel it. For one reason or another, I anticipate a rework coming someday.

24 Comments

Aptest6 votes

To RookPusher,

Halfway into your long post, I began to ask myself: Is this really a support player talking? Please forgive me for checking, because the way you look at things, the way you see the support role, what you believe the role is about and what you believe support players are looking for is so alien from what I, a low silver support main, believe in and would like to do while playing support, that I could not accept you firsthand as a support main. Please accept my apologies.

That being said, here is what I want, out of playing support: A role focused on directing the game, and play making. A synergistic play experience where I carry, through my allies; Not my allies carrying, enabled by me, but me carrying, supported by my allies. My power fantasy is the kingmaker: the person who chooses of his team who shall be king, makes that person king, and then puppeteers that "king" to victory over the other team.

in other words: "his dance moves are impressive, but IM IN CONTROL"

Please see that this does not exactly resonate with your ideas on what the role should be like. And include people like me in your future representation of the support role's players.


A bigger celebration of what you call "support role activities" will be useless, as a means of promoting the support role. That is because advertising only works in this way, if the ideas promoted resonate with the players that you'd like to attract. A player looking to make big outplays and get kills, who gets his kicks on seeing health-bars disappear, will not be attracted by a big flashing sign "you saved carry". He will say "meh", move on and his next game he will go Zed or Katarina, again.

You are grossly over-estimating the power of advertising to build up desire. In truth, that power is almost nonexistent and advertising works mostly by promoting already expressed behavior. See "Skinner box" for more general information on who advertising actually works.

Overall you can not invent desires for the other person. The assumption that you can shape what people will desire has failed in league several times. If you want these people from mid lane to queue as supports, you have to either (a) force them or (b) give them what they want - not what you desire that they will want.


With that in mind, it is possible that making an assassin (the most popular type) champion for the support role will actually attract people into the role (beyond the first week).

More likely people, after the first week, will ignore whatever classification riot gives the champion, and will use the true classification which will be an emergent quality of Pyke. Riot will be able to force the issue only by strong-arming the player based through actual nerfs and buffs: announcements and celebration will not function.

however if riot actually manages to balance pyke into being an assassin in the support role, that can function as an assassin, that would be super oppressive and is likely to make people rage-quit.

Or maybe we'll just have ADCs be unplayable for a patch or two because of it. which is not a bad result.


Overall the lack of Pauper lane players (the 0-farm role in league) is a problem to be solved. You can't make people want to play a subservient function. Therefore you have to give them what they want, not what you want them to desire.

Case in point: what actually made support role more popular in the past? The ability to play BRAND, and ZYRA and MALZAHAR as a supports.

RookPusher1 votes

{quoted}

To RookPusher,

Halfway into your long post, I began to ask myself: Is this really a support player talking? Please forgive me for checking, because the way you look at things, the way you see the support role, what you believe the role is about and what you believe support players are looking for is so alien from what I, a low silver support main, believe in and would like to do while playing support, that I could not accept you firsthand as a support main. Please accept my apologies.

That being said, here is what I want, out of playing support: A role focused on directing the game, and play making. A synergistic play experience where I carry, through my allies; Not my allies carrying, enabled by me, but me carrying, supported by my allies. My power fantasy is the kingmaker: the person who chooses of his team who shall be king, makes that person king, and then puppeteers that "king" to victory over the other team.

in other words: "his dance moves are impressive, but IM IN CONTROL"

Please see that this does not exactly resonate with your ideas on what the role should be like. And include people like me in your future representation of the support role's players.


A bigger celebration of what you call "support role activities" will be useless, as a means of promoting the support role. That is because advertising only works in this way, if the ideas promoted resonate with the players that you'd like to attract. A player looking to make big outplays and get kills, who gets his kicks on seeing health-bars disappear, will not be attracted by a big flashing sign "you saved carry". He will say "meh", move on and his next game he will go Zed or Katarina, again.

You are grossly over-estimating the power of advertising to build up desire. In truth, that power is almost nonexistent and advertising works mostly by promoting already expressed behavior. See "Skinner box" for more general information on who advertising actually works.

Overall you can not invent desires for the other person. The assumption that you can shape what people will desire has failed in league several times. If you want these people from mid lane to queue as supports, you have to either (a) force them or (b) give them what they want - not what you desire that they will want.


With that in mind, it is possible that making an assassin (the most popular type) champion for the support role will actually attract people into the role (beyond the first week).

More likely people, after the first week, will ignore whatever classification riot gives the champion, and will use the true classification which will be an emergent quality of Pyke. Riot will be able to force the issue only by strong-arming the player based through actual nerfs and buffs: announcements and celebration will not function.

however if riot actually manages to balance pyke into being an assassin in the support role, that can function as an assassin, that would be super oppressive and is likely to make people rage-quit.

Or maybe we'll just have ADCs be unplayable for a patch or two because of it. which is not a bad result.


Overall the lack of Pauper lane players (the 0-farm role in league) is a problem to be solved. You can't make people want to play a subservient function. Therefore you have to give them what they want, not what you want them to desire.

Case in point: what actually made support role more popular in the past? The ability to play BRAND, and ZYRA and MALZAHAR as a supports.

Odd. Halfway through your post I was wondering what you were disagreeing with. I don't really see where we disagree. Brand, Zyra, and Malzahar (iirc) don't become Wardens either. Which supports my argument. Pyke is a bailout for assassins who want quicker queue times with not being flammed for taking kills.

Supports control the battle by changing outcomes. The role by it's nature isn't glory-seeking or kill-hungry.

Aptest1 votes

{quoted}

Odd. Halfway through your post I was wondering what you were disagreeing with. I don't really see where we disagree. Brand, Zyra, and Malzahar (iirc) don't become Wardens either. Which supports my argument. Pyke is a bailout for assassins who want quicker queue times with not being flammed for taking kills.

Supports control the battle by changing outcomes. The role by it's nature isn't glory-seeking or kill-hungry.

I seek more to cause outcomes, than to change outcomes. That is our key difference in outlooks.

RookPusher1 votes

{quoted}

I seek more to cause outcomes, than to change outcomes. That is our key difference in outlooks.

Maybe, but the mechanisms are the same, unless we're using different definitions of either cause or change.

To me, I play Zilean, Bard, and an occasional Nami. When I think (in this context) of either change or cause, I'm still thinking modification. A heal, a speed up, a stun, a root.

I'm not thinking a kill because by that measure everyone is a support.

Pika Fox4 votes

Oh please, as a support main, we already have hyper aggressive kill lane support options; Leona, Brand, Zyra, Thresh.

Pyke being an assassin support brings a new playstyle to the support role, but not a new goal.

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-06-01T18:40:39.251+0000)

Oh please, as a support main, we already have hyper aggressive kill lane support options; Leona, Brand, Zyra, Thresh.

Pyke being an assassin support brings a new playstyle to the support role, but not a new goal.

Brand and Zyra are part of new supports that neither become wardens or control fights to the same degree wardens do.

As for the tanks, they might be aggressive, but they aren't designed for kills. I guess we just disagree here.

Pika Fox1 votes

A level 3-4 Leona will 1v1 any bot laner on her own. Shes a low level kill support who falls off mid-late game

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T19:26:34.226+0000)

A level 3-4 Leona will 1v1 any bot laner on her own. Shes a low level kill support who falls off mid-late game

I feel like one of us is on drugs. Why the hell are you looking at a support in a 1v1 fashion? At no point in the game should 1v1 be the barometer by which we judge anything.

Pika Fox1 votes

Leona should be roaming, and the other person usually doesnt matter when the E lands on the target. They either flash or die if your ADC bothers to auto.

Especially the ones who think brand counters leona. Leona counters brand.

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T19:37:36.366+0000)

Leona should be roaming, and the other person usually doesnt matter when the E lands on the target. They either flash or die if your ADC bothers to auto.

Especially the ones who think brand counters leona. Leona counters brand.

If she's this amazing, then why does she have the 27th highest win rate of the supports?

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Support

Pika Fox1 votes

Falls off as game goes on, isnt vood at protecting the ADC, due to skillshot ult CC being relatively easy to dodge the stun and E movement being a relatively small skillshot, doesnt do well as primary engage either due to support tank items not providing enough selfish stats for her.

We arent talking whether or not shes viable, were talking about kill lane supports.

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T19:55:41.923+0000)

Falls off as game goes on, isnt vood at protecting the ADC, due to skillshot ult CC being relatively easy to dodge the stun and E movement being a relatively small skillshot, doesnt do well as primary engage either due to support tank items not providing enough selfish stats for her.

We arent talking whether or not shes viable, were talking about kill lane supports.

We, aren't. You are. Her ability to kill is nice. But it's not the argument I'm making. No assassin main came to support because of Leona.

Pika Fox1 votes

Because youre acting like pyke is an entirely new playstyle. Sure, hes more of a proper assassin, but kill lane supports arent new.

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T20:17:23.395+0000)

Because youre acting like pyke is an entirely new playstyle. Sure, hes more of a proper assassin, but kill lane supports arent new.

Well that's a buffs/nerfs issue. I'm aware that Supports having kill potential isn't new. I'm not arguing that.

He is an invitation, at the hands of Riot, for assassins to take up the Support role in what I'd considered a hamfisted attempt to drop queue times.

IF I'M RIGHT this means you've got assassins playing support with an assassin-lite champ, the end result of which (thus far) has been Pyke becoming an assassin mid-game in build, action, and roam.

Pika Fox1 votes

Riots been trying to make new and interesting supports with playmaking potential for a long while. Thresh, bard and rakan all have kits that arent just "babysit all day" and have their own ways to make major game making plays on their own. Its less trying to get more people into supports and more trying to give us more agency other than pressing our heal/shield button all day.

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T20:25:04.340+0000)

Riots been trying to make new and interesting supports with playmaking potential for a long while. Thresh, bard and rakan all have kits that arent just "babysit all day" and have their own ways to make major game making plays on their own. Its less trying to get more people into supports and more trying to give us more agency other than pressing our heal/shield button all day.

I'd agree with this except Rakan, Thresh, and Bard are a bridge removed from a guy who's aim is to get kills and has invisibility.

Pika Fox1 votes

Not really. Bard will 1v1 the shit outta someone and burst them extremely hard (he has more damage with Q and passive than most realize), Thresh likewise has good burst especially with his passive stacking his AP for free, and AP Rakan can do decent work too.

People dont realize supports have far more damage early game than their ADCs ever could.

Jyoeru2 votes

I generally agree. But that said, where I see the real problem is all the "I am now a support main lulz" types who will come in and do as they've always done when cast in that role, but now they are actively seeking it out. Support mains are a special, rare breed. Not special in a pompous way, but there's a real difference between a player who plays support 100% of the time vs. one who plays it when they have to--or now plays it because they got some version of mid lane they like that can hang out in bot lane.

And as far as the rework goes, I also agree. His hook is terrible. His W is lackluster because you still have to wind up your hook (and break stealth) and you basically have to be on the enemy's tail (so within vision range) to land an E. His R is his only saving grace, and even then that's a late-game thing I think. And even then, hourglass ftw.

He is built as high engage, but he can't really do much when he gets there. He is 100% reliant on his team, yet he's built to play like he's a contract killer.

Other than his roaming potential and tentative late game with R spam, he's pretty much a weak champion that will likely be poorly executed by 95% of all people trying to use him (myself included). I just feel sorry for most of the people ending up with new Pyke mains for the next few weeks. But after that, he'll end up on the same shelf as Rakan and Xayah and Zoe and pretty much most of the champs they've rolled out the last couple years.

Aptest4 votes

{quoted} ....he'll end up on the same shelf as Rakan and Xayah and Zoe and pretty much most of the champs they've rolled out the last couple years.

these are all tier A champs though. And all very popular.

Jyoeru1 votes

silver mate, as most are.

Aptest1 votes

ah?

Colgate Gator2 votes

Did they ever say Pyke is considered a Warden?

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tufGQMMB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-06-01T20:01:26.244+0000)

Did they ever say Pyke is considered a Warden?

I mean I don't know what his Mastery evolves into (which would be the determining factor) but I'm saying it in terms of concept. The law is one thing, the spirit of it is another.

Conversely, I think Maokai is by definition a Tank but you can easily play him as a Warden, despite him not being technically a Warden. Hopefully that makes sense.

Demon King Maou1 votes

I don't find hes good if you build him how they want [item 3147 item 3814 ETC i've played him like so and i've enjoyed it way more then AD pyke Pyke item 3401 item 3117 item 3742 [ Then build AD ] Overall you zip around the map quicker with your submerge & can get some pretty good ganks in early while your adc recalls

More from Gameplay

More by RookPusher