How to balance Vayne with one (and a half) simple change(s);

Dominick Destine·Nov 16, 2016·4 votes·614 views

Auto attack range changed to 475 from 550 Final hour now passively increases range by 25 points per level

The idea would be to allow Vayne to keep her insane late game and hyperscaling, but give her a vulnerability early game... y'know, how she's supposed to be from the beginning when they released her.

An early game weakling and late game monster. Right now she is pretty average early game (THIS SHOULD NOT BE, she's supposed to be the Nasus of ADCs) and just snowballs very hard even without kills. You have to actively oppress Vayne very hard, very early to outscale her and this simply should not be the case.

I don't want her damage or mobility changed. Just give enemy players an opening to beat her when she's supposed to be at her weakest.

13 Comments

DreadlocksNov 16, 20163 votes

God no lol.. They could just remove the Bonus AD when ulting and give her attack speed instead. Would fit her kit better.

Mr Broken WingsNov 16, 20161 votes

And suddendly vayne is never picked again because her range for sieges is complete garbage and not viable for the adc role. Did you ever ask yourself the question why we had adcs in the meta for 7 seasons straight no matter how shit their earlygame and laning was? The answer is pretty simple, you need an adc in the game to siege turrets and pressure advantages. Vayne already struggles with her nonexistant waveclear and her mediocre range to open up an inhib, what do you think would happen if you murder her range under the range of sivir? Yeah, she would be urgot tier of useless. Balacing is not murdering and deleting a champion forever dude.

Dominick DestineNov 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tpW0EQpk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:40:49.518+0000)

And suddendly vayne is never picked again because her range for sieges is complete garbage

By the time teamfights and major sieges occur, she would have recovered most of her range.

The idea that Vayne should have an early game vulnerability is not something I am coming up with; This was her initial concept as developed by Riot themselves (Hyper scaler with an early game vulnerability).

Did you ever ask yourself the question why we had adcs in the meta for 7 seasons straight

First of all that's not true. In S1 we didn't have ADCs "in the meta", they were HARD outscaled and outperformed by broken release characters like Jax (Shiver), broken new characters like Xin (SHIVER) and the ridiculous burst of APC like Annie/Sion.... aside from maybe Twitch, ADC were quite garbo in S1.

For the most part, the 'meta' wasn't really a thing until late S2... before that the game was just complete madness.

Vayne already struggles with her nonexistant waveclear and her mediocre range

And these things are meant to give her weakness but it is not being meaningful. https://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC

Vayne is outperforming all other ADCs by a significant margin. She needs nerfs, I believe the best way to bring her into balance without making her useless is by using Riot's initial design philosophy (Weak early, strong late). Do you disagree? if yes then how do you believe she should be meaningfully nerfed?

INB4 "How about we decrease her AD by 3 ?????"

Fawkes04Nov 16, 20161 votes

Right now she is pretty average early game (THIS SHOULD NOT BE, she's supposed to be the Nasus of ADCs)

Well, atm she IS the Nasus of ADCs - actually she is even weaker, since Quasus will take your turret after 10-15 minutes.

But yeah, I totally agree. She's average in lane and destroys lategame, that's not really balanced. But taking away so much range would result in her being picked never ever, since ADCs have to attack turrets in midgame, and by midgame she'd have like 500 range and could never afford to attack a turret unless there is not a single enemy champion anywhere near it.

Dominick DestineNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, atm she IS the Nasus of ADCs - actually she is even weaker

D-Cane has a 51.6% win rate with a 7.5% play rate. Broken ADC has 53.7% win rate with a 25%(!) play rate.

[NOTE: Higher play rate directly correlates with decreased win rate. Ex: Lee Sin and Thresh were regularly below 45% win rate for years because of their absurdly high play rates, this has recently changed with Lee above 52% meaning he is likely to be nerfed] The fact that Vayne conserves such a high win rate with that astronomical play rate means she is completely broken.

Vayne "weaker" than Nasus? please, keep that nonsense out of here.

IronfieldNov 17, 20161 votes

Hello Summoner!

Interesting concept however reducing her range to 475 is huge disadvantage for many reasons.

Due to vaynes kit being almost completely auto attack enhancers having a such a short range will allow her to be too easily harassed and bullied in lane.
475 attack range is the shortest range of any marksman (besides urgot/graves which aren't commonly played in the marksman role anymore due to this reason)

The inherent disadvantage of being such short range will cause vayne to almost be nonexistent until level 6 where she would be already too far behind due to being constantly zoned and force her to have the 'Nasus' effect of farming the entire gaming until she is capable.

Another possible outcome of the range disadvantage may be forcing her into an entirely different role such as top where she does have a range advantage.

Possible nerfs that may be to decrease the bonus physical damage on tumble or tumble's critical strikes, to deal dealing 50% (+ 100% bonus critical damage) bonus damage.

Dominick DestineNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Interesting concept however reducing her range to 475 is huge disadvantage

Only until level 6 after which it becomes 500... then 525... then 550 again.

A huge disadvantage early is something she is supposed to have, by Riot's own original design specs of Vayne.

Due to vaynes kit being almost completely auto attack enhancers having a such a short range will allow her to be... easily harassed and bullied in lane.

That's the point.

475 attack range is the shortest range of any marksman

Urgot Graves

I didn't really see any counter argument in your post.

IronfieldNov 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tpW0EQpk,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-11-17T00:26:22.548+0000)

Only until level 6 after which it becomes 500... then 525... then 550 again.

A huge disadvantage early is something she is supposed to have, by Riot's own original design specs of Vayne.

That's the point.

I didn't really see any counter argument in your post.

The problem is that its too much of a disadvantage. She will be unable to farm, harass, or lane against any other champion.

*i edited the previous post for clarity.

Dominick DestineNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that its too much of a disadvantage.

She is currently outperforming every other ADC and some by several orders of magnitude.

You do not believe she needs a meaningful nerf?

khorneyNov 17, 20161 votes

dude she already has a huge advantage...... her aa and varus aa should not be the same

IronfieldNov 17, 20161 votes

Vayne was fine before patch 6.17 where:

"Tumble Bonus damage increased to 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% AD from 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% AD"

During this patch her winrate shot up form ~48% to her current win rate of 53%. The only problem with her current kit is the immense burst she has with a crit tumble. That is what needs to be nerfed not her early game range which doesnt solve the problem of vayne burst instead delays it. Having burst on vaynes wasnt what she was designed for and removing the burst should go along way into being her into a more healthy state.

ZephyrDrakeNov 17, 20161 votes

how to delete a champion from the game, make it so that they are unable to do ANYTHING! at all until pretty much lvl 16 by which point she would be a non-factor. You do know that EVERYTHING she does is dictated by her auto range while someone like Graves still has the tools to farm from a distance? lowering her range by that much pretty much means she is going to be completely unable to do anything until it's already way too late for her to do anything. Champions having a strong late game does not mean that they should have nonexistent early-mid games since there is no point in picking those champions ever

IronfieldNov 17, 20161 votes

I believe vayne deserves a nerf however nerfing her early game range is not the way too do it. Also Tristana holds the niche of gaining attack range with levels.

Another way to nerf vayne should be buffing botlane marksman Corki. Currently he is a terror in the mid lane with a 56% win rate. Having corki back in the bottom will help counter Vayne and lower her overall winrate.