Is thornmail worth picking up?

Dreadlocks·Jun 23, 2016·3 votes·3,944 views

I feel like the adc usually can lifesteal though it even with 300+ armor. Any tank players Wana fill me in cause even vs multiple AAers I find fh and omens to do a better job.

43 Comments

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20165 votes

malphite and rammus with 400+ armor. yes.

everyone else nope.

xBushxJun 23, 20161 votes

This exactly.

There is NEVER a good reason, unless as described above.

You get more from Randuins and Dead Man's plate as any other champ.

HyperiönJun 23, 20164 votes

The only other scenario is if the whole enemy team is AD. Then it can sometimes be beneficial to get a thornmail if they are still shredding through deadmans/randuins.

xBushxJun 23, 20161 votes

Nodding head over here. Completely agree.

In general the enemy team goes ALL AD they WILL lose just by sheer dmg being better coming from a hybrid team.

Good discussion here.

CherysseJun 23, 20163 votes

Even with +400 armor you have to consider various things;

Do you have magic penetration? it deals magic damage, and it will be heavily mitigated by magic resist, if you have no magic pen and the enemy has magic resist items; NO.

Does the enemy have heavy life steal?; if the answer is yes; NO.

**Does your enemy have item 3071 or any armor shred abilities?; **If the anwser is yes then they will shred all the scaling of the item away...

As you see Thornmail is SO SITUATIONAL that it really sucks as an item right now.

RookPusherJun 23, 20163 votes

I hate the LS argument. You'll get DMP instead which, what, does more damage? No. Thonrmail might not kill an ADC outright, but your damage to them increases when you have it on. If you don't want to buy it, fine. But don't skip it because it's not killing the ADC on its own.

JayHog1992Jun 23, 20163 votes

The item is worth, but only alongside more armor items such as randuim's, frozen heart...

Normaly the ONLY time you ever want to pick up thornmail is if the entire enemy team is ad (The support may not count if it's a support that builds defensively instead of AP).

LitznerJun 23, 20162 votes

It all depends on temp comp. Does the team have 3 champs who primary AA to do damage? If yes, then a Thornmail "can" be very good. Its like almost every other item in the game, you have to weigh its benefits against the team comp\build you are facing.

Don't focus on "the build" for your champ, rather focus on building against your enemies. This will change drastically depending on if you are ahead, behind, and who on the enemy team is ahead and what they are building.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It all depends on temp comp.

no it doesnt. auto attack heavy team or not. thornmail is trash. youll get more out of another armor/health item than a thornmail.

ive tried again and again. and the games i bought thornmail, i didnt just feel more squishy, but also the damage return did absolutely nothing, even when stacked with other big armor items.

id rather stack a second randuins than a thornmail.

item 3035 items alone cut thornmails value straight in half. youre losing out on much less gold with a armor/health item.

LitznerJun 23, 20162 votes

But if they have not built any armor pen items all of a sudden Thornmail get worth a lot more, again it depends on who you are facing.

Critmaster GarenJun 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

But if they have not built any armor pen items all of a sudden Thornmail get worth a lot more, again it depends on who you are facing.

ive had poeple without armor pen lifesteal through a thornmail and 300 armor without issues. mercurial and bloothirster alone are enough to just ignore the damage return.

it doesnt even noticably slow them down.

if the damage return is neglectable, then there is no reason to buy thornmail for its raw stats.

other items have better stats and are more slot efficient.

LitznerJun 23, 20161 votes

And I have had ADCs kill themselves on Thornmail, again it is situational depending on who you are against and what they are building. I typically save Thornmail for a 6th item and usually only pick it up situationally, but it is worth it in some situations. My most notable when being low on Mundo and Ulting, they try to focus you the rest of the way down, they cannot, and die in the process.

Check here for a nice write up on Thornmail.

http://www.leagueoflegendsmath.com/Articles/Thornmail_Math.html

It works particularly well on tanks that run Magic Pen, which I do on Mundo.

DreadlocksJun 23, 20161 votes

Pretty much how I feel abt it too.

SpoofghoulJun 23, 20161 votes

nah

this is what i do

Sion item 3047 item 1413 item 3065 item 3083 With scaling health yellows and %hp quints and strenght of ages mastery with all the other tanky option in the masteries

works vs everything apparently

i mean when you run at them with over 9000 health what are they going to do? no seriously you also have damage reduction and 130 armor/mr thats enough to be noticeable defense but not high enough to make penetration effective not to mention the dumb amounts of health regen

apparently thats the best way to get tanky right now plain old health&regen

QuephaJun 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tmscdHB1,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-06-23T15:36:00.632+0000)

I feel like the adc usually can lifesteal though it even with 300+ armor.

So what? You're still effectively reducing the effect of their lifesteal and causing them to die faster.

It would be stupid if Thornmail was intended to make it so that even if you sat there and auto-attacked a tank who was afk, you would kill yourself even without the tank doing anything.

DreadlocksJun 23, 20162 votes

The point is. I could prob spend my gold on another item and live longer. U can say thornmail isn't suppose to upright kill the adc and that's fine. But if every adcs build can counter the item without even having the intentions to do so, then I can easily argue thornmail is subpar to every other armor item.

BaunjoJun 23, 20162 votes

Well, keep in mind there is a few things that go into dealing with ADC's, armor is not the only one. Lets take Vayne into example here. ( No I don't think vayne is OP )

She has % HP true damage and shreds armor when she get's last whisper.

SO, it is important to build either item 3110 or item 3143 Against her. That being said, take ADC's who don't have armor pen or true damage in their kit. If you want thornmail to work, you need to combine both attack speed reduction and armor. Also you cannot expect to just kill the ADC by them attacking you, and if you have you need to play someone who can stick to the ADC to make use of the debuff aura.

That being said, I usually only build thornmail if the enemy team has more than 1 heavy AA AD champion. In that case, my build generally looks like:

item 3047 item 3143 item 3075 item 3742 ( both randuins and DMP help immensely in sticking to an ADC ) and then 2 situational items or damage.

In total, the ADC specific stats you recieve from that is:

240 armor 10% crit reduction 4 second 35% slow decaying 50% slow

Hope that helps a bit

DeathBurstJun 23, 20162 votes

I rush it as first item when I'm against Yasuo or Tryndamere top. I buy it as ~3rd item if there is a fed Yi/Shyvana in the jungle or if the Yasuo mid is snowballing.

If your goal is to counter a fed ADC, Randuin's crit protection is often better. And Randuin and Thornmail aren't exclusive, the best is still to build both. But Thornmail is more situational, you buy it to counter someone, whereas Randuin is a generally good defense item.

GoosetardJun 23, 20161 votes

Was about to tell you randuins rush would be a lot better against both of those champs, but you talked about it next paragraph...

Linna ExcelJun 23, 20162 votes

How many ADCs are there, are they casters or AAers, and are you building more than one armor item?

Billy VoHagenJun 23, 20162 votes

Here's the thing. Even if the ADC lifesteals through it, that's effectively health they are losing because they are not life stealing the total amount. So you're team will be able to kill them easier, if that makes sense.

DreadlocksJun 24, 20161 votes

I could buy a dif armor item and make the same argument.

Billy VoHagenJun 24, 20161 votes

How would having another armor item reduce the healing ADC's have in the same way thornmail does?

DreadlocksJun 24, 20161 votes

If I'm reducing their attack speed or crit dmg, then I'm essentially also reducing the rate they lifesteal.

Billy VoHagenJun 24, 20161 votes

Why not get multiple armor items?

DreadlocksJun 24, 20162 votes

My point is it doesn't do its job for shit.. its too easy for adcs to blast through

Elite4RunnerJun 23, 20161 votes

Yes, but wear thick gloves. ;)

MisterHealYoGirlJun 23, 20161 votes

It usually covers lifesteal, but the days of ADCs killing themselves on your Thornmail are pretty much gone. If you have this and one other major armor item (for about 300 total), 15% pre-mitigation + 25% armor against an ADC with a Maw and a Reminder (among other damage items) would cancel roughly 45% lifesteal (varying slightly with the other items they have).

JedditeJun 23, 20161 votes

If you're (A) playing Rammus in ARAM and (B) are a member of the ARAM Bronze League™, then yes -- rush a Thornmail and revel in your uselessness. As an added bonus, be sure to blame your team for not backing you up when you Powerball into a 1v5.

Illâoi Evê SiônJun 23, 20161 votes

If they have two or more Marksmen on their team is might be worth it. Like if they have Quinn Jungle/Top or Jhin Mid. It's also great against AS Kog'Maw builds.

nice tableJun 23, 20161 votes

i don't think ive ever gotten it in season 6, i could see you getting it against some ad champion with heavy healing to survive lane as a second item but other than that it seems pretty worthless.

Blumpkin NationJun 23, 20161 votes

If you get thornmail and can inflict grievous wounds, it can be very effective. Thought the build for grievous wounds isn't.

GirardJun 23, 20161 votes

It's actually destructive against a Jhin. His last shot getting 15% of it's damage reflected back to him is a pretty big chunk of damage to him. :-) It all depends on their team comp and your champion.

MelledoneusJun 23, 20161 votes

I mean, you can pick it up... just be careful not to damage it or you're buying it.

LadyRenlyJun 23, 20161 votes

i think thorn works if you have some hp to back it up first. it has the most armor in the game, too.

bleufromageJun 23, 20161 votes

Maybe I'm just too much of a noob but I find thornmail to be usefull after you have stacked enough health and they have fed ad champs. Sure you can life steal through it but I don't see many heavy hitters prioritizing LS over crit. it definitely is not a core item on anyone but rammus and it's notmeant to be a staple item on every tank every game.

I find its value is drastically increased in 1v1 engagements with a low mobility adc. They often end up killing themselves.

kuzzy47Jun 23, 20161 votes

Get it before adcs get Lifesteal item.Getting thornmail forces them to choose between Lifesteal and lord dominiks.

SalronJun 23, 20161 votes

Sometimes I have nightmares of the the times I open death recap and see thorn did 800+ dmg It's best as your last tank item

EmollientNut0Jun 23, 20161 votes

Nope!

AlwaysByMySideJun 24, 20161 votes

Yes, depending on the champ and situation.

It's always a good item on Malphite or Rammus, and often a good item on Mundo, Nasus, or Volibear. Basically on very sticky champions (Nasus is a bit less sticky, but Thornmail is great for dueling other splitpushers as well) who tend to build full tank but still have the damage to fuck an ADC's world up. Thornmail decreases the time required to do this.

It's still a solid item, it just can't make an ADC kill themselves without you having to do anything anymore, which is good. Only stupid fat bruiser and tank mains want that iteration of thornmail back.

BloodyTomponJun 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tmscdHB1,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-06-24T00:15:05.909+0000)

It's still a solid item, it just can't make an ADC kill themselves without you having to do anything anymore, which is good.

This. It is shit design and shit balance to have an item that does this. I see too many threads of people wanting to buff it till it hits this situation without understanding how bad an idea it is.

BloodyTomponJun 24, 20161 votes

Yes, but not till late (4-5 item). Tanks should not be able to kill an ADC simply by existing and buying thorn mail. That would be terrible balance and design. So yes, they will life steal through most of it. But at the same time it will still do a non trivial amount of damage too.

AAers I find fh and omens do a better job

Depends on the job. FH, Randuins and Thornmail are all anti aa niche items. FH and Randiums are better for prolonging your life, but don't do damage. Thorn mail does not prolong your life near the amount the others do, but it does a lot of ambient damage. Sort of like Sunfire does. If you are ahead and not having trouble with surviving, then Thornmail is a terrific item instead of FH or Radians. If you are dying too quickly FH=>Randiuns=>Thornmail is the order of increasing survivability in most cases.