Instead of rework hybrid champs into linear AD or AP, how about we rework hybrid itemization?

xxxMadLionxxx·Sep 30, 2017·90 votes·3,591 views

Honestly, if Riot just took their time to rework the whole hybrid itemization/tank resistance/hybrid system then balancing hybrid champs would not be so hard.

It sucks when a champ like Evelyn complete loses half of her scalings with a rework. And she is not only one. Riot has been doing it slowly on all their reworks.

Makes me scared to see what they will do to next year. I almost rather they left him as is if they plan to continue this trend.

Anyway, the point is, stop destroying hybrid champs. They offer a lot of diversity to the game and riot should take advantage of that.

125 Comments

Malicious MetalSep 30, 201746 votes

See, the problem of Hybridity in Eve's case wasn't that she could build ad and ap, but rather that it warped her intended gameplay.

Her AD play style made her more of a sustained damage fighter, which doesn't really fit her champion identity.

Morde can build AP and AD but he'll always play like a bruiser.

KoKobotoSep 30, 20171 votes

New Evelynn doesn't have a massive A/S boost. Meaning she can't be played as a sustained damage fighter.

Also the Evelynn you're referring to isn't really AD at all. It's... item 1416 item 3153 etc...

Not an AD build but an on-hit build that doesn't actually work very well and won't work now because she has no A/S boost.

Btw go to any league stats website and you'll fine none of her builds involve tanky bruiser things currently. It's either lethality or etc.

Her winrates start to drop severely once she builds tanky in anyway currently. It'll be even worse with new Evelynn.

Malicious MetalSep 30, 201722 votes

Riot doesn't want her to play like that. They want her to burst hard and then slip back into the shadows, currently AD, on hit or whatever she builds other than AP, Eve does not play like riot wants her to.

This is why she lost the ad scalings and on hit, they want her to play as an ap assassin.

KoKobotoSep 30, 20173 votes

I think you're missing what I'm saying. Evelynn as on-hit doesn't work, AD Evelynn if you're building bruiser items doesn't work. Hybrid itemization that focuses on assassin items DOES work and it feels great to have different ways to itemize for an assassin.

Going for items like Duskblade, Yommus, Edge of Night has been an option for a long time now. With the changes she won't be able to build that way anymore. That's why losing that itemization sucks. Evelynn is and always has been an assassin, not a diver as some people like to claim. New Evelynn can still be an assassin with AD ratios. Having AD ratios doesn't suddenly change her class.

Malicious MetalSep 30, 20174 votes

So why is her being AP an issue then? She'll play the same as AD burst builds then and it'll be easier to balance for riot.

I don't see a bloody problem here.

KoKobotoSep 30, 20171 votes

I didn't say that her building AP is an issue. My problem is that her building AD is no longer as viable (probably won't even be viable) as with the current Evelynn. The main problem here is that her build options are being cut down immensely which sucks.

Evelynn isn't a balance problem right now and hasn't been for years even tho she has hybrid builds. Jax, Kayle, Katarina, Teemo, Jayce, Varus, Volibear, Warwick, Shyvana, Xin Zhao, have all been fine for the most part although they deal a lot of mixed damage. Thing is most of these champions are on-hit / bruisers / juggernauts with the exception of Varus. It's nice to have one assassin that can have multiple build paths.

Going for items like Duskblade, Yommus, Edge of Night has been an option for a long time now. With the changes she won't be able to build that way anymore and you'll be stuck going the same build every damn game. That's why losing that itemization sucks.

Will I still play new Evelynn? Hell YEAH! Even more now. Will I never have to think about itemization again? Yeah, and that really sucks and takes away from the experience of playing league of legends and "being smart" for item choices.

DeathBurstOct 1, 20172 votes

Evelynn isn't a balance problem right now and hasn't been for years

She isn't a balance problem because she has been kept fucking under-powered for years. You're missing the fact that, in compensation of losing her hybrid scalings, she'll now be actually balanced to be truly viable, so your champ will have much more raw power than before.

It's the same as Aatrox players complaining about losing their OP passive in the rework. Yeah, they lost the OP passive, but that means they can now get a real champion on the other side, instead of a joke to counter-balance the OP passive.

KoKobotoOct 1, 20171 votes

Hovering around 50% winrate for years isn't under powered. She has and for most of her time in the game has had reasonable win conditions and chances for success.

Aatrox is different because he's supposed to be a diver but sucks ass people his play would be real stupid and has no counter play other than stat-check, he's one of Rito's last horrible design champions and it shows with what they begin making after. The on-hit area era ended with Aatrox pretty much. Also Aatrox is pretty successful right now going checking through a bunch of league stat websites. Personally I find Aatrox weak and whenever I lose to Aatrox I can't believe it. However when played hyper aggressive and with proper use of his new passive he's very strong early and can force fights / leads similar to Elise and Zac. He's also hovering around 50%.

http://champion.gg/champion/Aatrox/Jungle https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Aatrox/ https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/aatrox http://www.op.gg/champion/aatrox/statistics/top http://lolmasters.net/platinum/champion/Aatrox

Evelynn early's clear is rough AF, kinda like Rengar's before he got some buffs though it's still pretty difficult early and that's about it. They then provide a lot of pressure on the map and have more unpredictable ganks than other champions. Evelynn isn't under-powered. A champion that's bad design and can't be buffed is Elise. Even if she had a really low winrate Riot can't buff her because pro play and high ELO, her kit has too many strengths early that would make her oppressive. So now she's basically a stun-bot come late game.

Under-powered right now is Lucian (because meta), Tahm Kench, Karma, Nautilus, Mundo. These champions have tools that just don't make the cut unless there's a huge meta change or something these champions will remain under-powered. Champions like Zac, Galio, Rakan, Viktor, also are technically under-powered but have different strengths that are better suited for professional play, Galio and Rakan are with team coordination, Viktor is for super low interactive mid lane.

DeathBurstOct 1, 20171 votes

Are you trying to convince me new Aatrox is fine? 'cause no need for that, I'm already convinced about it, as was implied by my "now he's a real champion" line.

And win-rate alone is a terrible metric for balance. Eve was definitely under-powered for years.

KoKobotoOct 1, 20171 votes

Sure. She's not that "balanced" right now and that's why she's getting a rework. She's a point click assassin like Akali which is stupid but she's way harder to pull off. I'd say she's decently balanced currently, not much counter play but she isn't that ridiculous. She has no tool to stay in a fight and no mobility in a fight, she's just burst and if you don't burst you lose.

New Evelynn will have more counter play so I guess she'll be more balanced I guess.

AhrisSep 30, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I think you're missing what I'm saying. Evelynn as on-hit doesn't work, AD Evelynn if you're building bruiser items doesn't work. Hybrid itemization that focuses on assassin items DOES work and it feels great to have different ways to itemize for an assassin.

Going for items like Duskblade, Yommus, Edge of Night has been an option for a long time now. With the changes she won't be able to build that way anymore. That's why losing that itemization sucks. Evelynn is and always has been an assassin, not a diver as some people like to claim. New Evelynn can still be an assassin with AD ratios. Having AD ratios doesn't suddenly change her class.

The thing is, AD assassin items are way better than AP Assassin items. Having access to all types of bursting items makes Evelyn extremely strong.

KoKobotoSep 30, 20171 votes

I don't see how having different types of bursting will make her strong. It makes her adaptable which is good but it doesn't make her too strong or overbearing. Reason being squishies don't build resistances and Evelynn is meant for killing squishies.

In other words for that squishy nothing changes cause they either die or they don't, but for Evelynn she has different options that feel great to use.

PB4UAMEOct 1, 20172 votes

Adaptability is a strength, no?

TheHappyReaperzSep 30, 201710 votes

The current most popular build for Eve is Runic Echos/Blue Smite + Protobelt + Lichbane. After that is Runic Echos/Blue Smite + Gunblade + Lichbane. While Duskblade is picked up in ~9% of Eve games, Yommus is picked up in ~0.8% of Eve games, behind Deadmans, ~8.9%, Trinity Force, ~6.1%, and Titanic Hydra, ~2.6%. If Eve builds a Duskblade, a Trinity Force, then a Deadmans, that's not assassin, that's bruiser. Using Evelynn as a diver was actually pretty decent, since you could stack big shields, putting out pretty good DPS with Trinity Force and your Q. While I dislike the fact that Eve is losing ratios, Riot's reasoning makes perfect sense.

KoKobotoSep 30, 20171 votes

Lolalytics right :D

Her bruiser builds also have the worst winrates which gets my point down pretty well.

AhrisSep 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lolalytics right :D

Her bruiser builds also have the worst winrates which gets my point down pretty well.

Lolalytic is really wrong. They listed Janna as 49.XX% winrate when in Riot's internal data she was 53.XX% .

KoKobotoOct 1, 20171 votes

Phreak uses lolalytics and I think he's a smart guy. I also check numerous websites. champion gg, op gg, league of graphs, lol masters.

AhrisOct 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Phreak uses lolalytics and I think he's a smart guy. I also check numerous websites. champion gg, op gg, league of graphs, lol masters.

Phreak was wrong many times. Lolalytics data was inaccurate because when Janna fell to 49% winrate at lolalytic at one point, a rioter quickly said her winrate is 53.XX%. Just by this comment, it shows that those stats sites are usually wrong.

Phreak has even said that we will expect Azir's winrate to drop, but instead it is 52-52% on lolalytic due to new players trying him. He mains the adc role so he should only discuss adc role.

KoKobotoOct 1, 20171 votes

Welp I guess all those people that follow him are a bunch of dumbasses.

AhrisOct 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Welp I guess all those people that follow him are a bunch of dumbasses.

Not always is he wrong. But I do disagree with him on many things but he is sometimes right. For example he considered the Janna changes as a buff more than a nerf. Which was true.

He does discuss the champ's strength but he is extremely reliant on numbers. Numbers only tells the story for ADC champs whose damage is point click. For other roles, it is much harder to calculate the champ's strength from numbers alone. That is where he kinda messes up imo.

So yeah, about ADC knowledge, he seems to really understand them. However, when it comes to other roles, he seem to kind of deviate, but not always. He mentioned Aatrox as being really strong. Which I do agree with him. However, most of community will disagree.

Jet SettOct 1, 20171 votes

So Riot doesn't approve of build diversity if it changes the playstyle? That happens a lot with other champions that can build differently, I see no reason why Eve has to lose out because of it.

I think you of all people know what it's like when Riot doesn't want a champion to play a certain way.

Malicious MetalOct 2, 20171 votes

Tank Ekko

I rest my case.

Jet SettOct 2, 20171 votes

AP Corki

Case resurrected.

Weiss GuertenaOct 2, 20171 votes

I think that "Riot doesn't want her to play like that" is a pretty big problem, as it's basically saying "screw creativity and alternate builds, you will play this champion the way we want or you won't play them at all."

And I maybe wouldn't be mad at this if they weren't so two-faced about it. Rioters are talking all the time about how they encourage variety, experimenting and generally having fun with unconventional builds (even going so far to feature them in Dark Horse series) - but as soon as any champion gets reworked/updated they show their true colors by deliberately going out of the way to make sure that other builds which were decent until that point become nothing more than troll picks. Actions speak louder than words and expose them as liars - if you don't want alternate builds just be honest with us and say "fuck you guys, you will play those champions the way we want it and you are going to like it". People would still probably be salty but honesty earns more respect than filthy, obvious lies.

Next thing you know they'll do the same thing as Smite and make primarily AD champions completely unable to buy AP items and vice versa (hell, why even have the freedom of choice: just make a champion autobuy the next cookie-cutter item once they recall with enough gold), while still preaching on how they encourage people to have fun and experiment with unconventional builds.

KaeblenOct 1, 20171 votes

u don't read good.

KoKobotoOct 1, 20171 votes

You're ugly.

KaeblenOct 2, 20171 votes

Rammus OK

SEKAISep 30, 201715 votes

Back in my days, AD only increases AA damage, AP is used to increase spell damage. Hybrid scaling means a champ is both scale-able via increasing AA (AD) and spell (AP) damage.

Then AD scaling in spells became a thing.

Well I guess with all things considered, it wasn't a bad move. But then, it makes the distinction between AD and AP kinda redundant.

Radiant SeraphSep 30, 20179 votes

Gunblade is weird as hell of an item. It has burst stats and active, but then it has omnivamp.

Why not remove the omnivamp on gunblade (buff it or bring back the Reload mechanic to compensate) and then make another, dps oriented item, with the omnivamp?

hopeful4Sep 30, 20173 votes

They could also replace his active with something else. Theres a ridiculous abundance of items with slow actives in this game

DeathBurstSep 30, 20178 votes

OK let me ask you a question first. What's the point of being an Hybrid champ in the first place?

Real question, I'm not trolling. I have strong feelings about Hybrid Items, but I'll let you reply first.

CasterGilgameshSep 30, 20172 votes

well for one people just seem to like things for liking them... but in a more serious answer its both because its very difficult to itemize against hybrid damage since there arent enough mr/armor items and just for the pure novelty

DeathBurstSep 30, 201713 votes

Well, none of that sounds like a good and healthy reason to me.

Far as I can see, there is one good reason to have a champion be Hybrid: flexibility in their build paths. (But if you have other reasons to add to the list, I'm still open.)

Problem is, if you want to preserve this flexibility in build paths for hybrid Champions, you need to get rid of hybrid Items. If Hybrid Items are any good, then Hybrid Champs aren't flexible anymore, they are forced into buying the couple items that are specifically tailored to them, and it's even worse, you have even less flexibility than being only AP or only AD.

So no, we shouldn't rework hybrid items. Like, at all.

And when you look closely at it, the few Hybrid Items we have aren't Items tailored to Hybrid champs, no, they're just Hybrid to make them purposely gold-inefficient for the majority of the roster, in order to ensure we can control who get access to their super powerful/game-warping Passives.

A quick word on Eve's specific case, even if I'm no expert. The problem with Eve being Hybrid is that giving flexibility to Assassins most often means giving Assassins the possibility to play Bruisers without counter-play. See "Tank" Akali, Ekko, Fizz, etc. And we use to call them "Tank", but the word isn't right, they are durable but they make horrible Tanks, they are more like heavy hitting Divers or more mobile Juggernauts.

Jumping back to the "it's hard to itemize against Hybrid champs": Not really. Because Hybrid champs also have more difficulty itemizing for Penetration, so squishies are still more afraid of a pure AD or pure AP Assassin/Burst mage. And Tanks/Frontliners will just buy one MR+HP item and one Armor+HP item and will laugh at you.

Champion SkinOct 1, 20171 votes

Actually hybrid items and champions could be fine if they were designed as early game champions.... they get more power early from having AP and AD scalings but fall off later due to items like item 3031 item 3089 item 3135 item 3036 not really being as useful for hybrid champions

DeathBurstOct 1, 20172 votes

No, I still disagree with that.

First off, having two scalings doesn't make you scale twice as hard in early, you still need to buy every point of stats. Gunblade has more AD+AP than any pure AD or AP item, but it's more expansive than most and has no other stat on the side.

Second, even if that was true, that still means you lose the flexibility of being hybrid and having the possibility of choosing your build paths game by game, which is up to now the only good reason to be hybrid. So that would be a bad idea anyway.

Anu3isIIOct 1, 20171 votes

I personally like Hybrid champions because, when they are balanced correctly, both their abilities and Auto-Attacks are as important.

ADCs tend to either build full-crit or pure lethality, making them essentially focused on only AA or their abilities.

AD bruisers somewhat value both things, but they generally build only 1-2 damage items, and then full-tank. No real room for options.

Assassins generaly have a combo of abilities that has the potential to burst squishies, but, sometimes, they require AAs to execute the target. Best assassin players know how to mix AAs in their combos, so that they don't prolong the fight for too long. One of the few classes that I would say it values both abilities and AAs, whether they go full AD or full AP.

Most Mages don't AA at all. There are Kayle, Kennen, Twisted Fate and Teemo. Kayle, Kennen and Teemo are really old and went through a lot of weird builds. Twisted is the only Mage who I believe that plays like a Hybrid without building any hybrid stuff.

I want some champions with abilities and AAs on the same level of impact, and Hybrid items generally tend to enchant this play style.

DeathBurstOct 1, 20171 votes

That's an interesting point.

I'd argue that most AD melee are like that, though. Fiora, Yasuo, Riven, Jayce, Pantheon, etc. On the AP side, Diana is also like that, and she's technically not an Assassin.

You don't need your champ to be Hybrid, and you especially don't need hybrid items to care about both autos and abilities. (In case you didn't read my other comments in that sub-thread, I have nothing against Hybrid Champs, but my point is that Hybrid Items are a bad thing, EVEN if you want to support Hybrid Champs.)

Bladerunner7777Oct 1, 20176 votes

Why the fuck do people want hybrid itemization in this game.

It isn't fun to play against in the slightest

AhrisSep 30, 20172 votes

Riot doesn't want to balance Evelyn around gunblade(though ahri was nerfed because of it), so they remove the ad scaling so that she won't be too OP.

chipndip1Sep 30, 20175 votes

Anyone can build Gunblade though...even Ahri did a few times in pro play.

AhrisSep 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Anyone can build Gunblade though...even Ahri did a few times in pro play.

Yes Ahri is balanced around building gunblade. Thus she cannot burst without it.

To add on, when was the last time Ahri was used competitively?

chipndip1Sep 30, 20177 votes

Reading comprehension: Anyone CAN build Gunblade though. Regardless of AD scalings, Eve could possibly still use Gunblade. Just like how Master Yi can still up and use Rageblade despite all the ap it gives.

As for the last time Ahri was used in competitive: Before she got nerfed because of solo queue that last time.

AhrisSep 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Reading comprehension: Anyone CAN build Gunblade though. Regardless of AD scalings, Eve could possibly still use Gunblade. Just like how Master Yi can still up and use Rageblade despite all the ap it gives.

As for the last time Ahri was used in competitive: Before she got nerfed because of solo queue that last time.

I mean, whatever you say. I doubt Riot will ever add it.

Also Ahri was last picked 2015 according to: https://lol.gamepedia.com/Ahri_-_The_Nine-Tailed_Fox

chipndip1Sep 30, 20176 votes

That source is wrong as fuck then, cause she was in pro play using Gunblade just this year at one point, along with LB, after Rito nerfed LB and she started using it.

Regardless, given the way Gunblade works, there's hardly a deterrent for someone like Eve to use the thing.

AhrisSep 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That source is wrong as fuck then, cause she was in pro play using Gunblade just this year at one point, along with LB, after Rito nerfed LB and she started using it.

Regardless, given the way Gunblade works, there's hardly a deterrent for someone like Eve to use the thing.

Please give me an updated source pls. I don't remember her being picked in competitive since season 5. Maybe in small tournaments, but not really in competitive if I remember right.

chipndip1Sep 30, 20173 votes

http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=2&tournament=MSI%20Play-In%202017

NineTailedMysticSep 30, 20172 votes

Ahri was not nerfed because of Gunblade. It never even became her meta build. If you're looking for an item to supplement her burst, look to Lich Bane.

AhrisSep 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ahri was not nerfed because of Gunblade. It never even became her meta build. If you're looking for an item to supplement her burst, look to Lich Bane.

Then... why was she nerfed? Her burst was fine but wasn't broken. Her damage overall was really just average.

Gunblade is really good. I take gunblade + lichbane. I don't take morello because it delays my damage spike too much.

HaIlMonitorOct 1, 20172 votes

She was nerfed for the same reasons Ori was. She was just too consistent for a long period of time. It may have only been 51% or whatever but they will nerf stuff that stays in the light to long (In my opinion because people get tired of playing vs the 20% playrate not because its super op or w/e)

NineTailedMysticOct 1, 20173 votes

She was nerfed because people complained about her "no skill W RRR Ignite 100 to 0 kills", even though they never happened. It was a nerf overall, but was still basically a power shift from her W and R to her E.

I despise Gunblade. The active is great but the build path and stats are very underwhelming. No Mana, no CDR, and sitting on a Vamp Scepter/Longswords in lane don't make the active worth.