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So hey, can you just go ahead and remove 80% of the AP roster?

Niyumi··6 votes·713 views

You obviously don't like AP, especially with all these runes that are almost blatantly labeled for ADCs, AD casters and other clickers (plus tanks). You continually buff AD items and give AD champs more AD + MR items as well as items like Adaptive Helm to further fuck over a handful of AP champs while nerfing AP items... Can you just go ahead and delete a good portion of the AP champs, since you hate them so much?

Like, you're buffing abilities/base stats on most AD champs (who all DO NOT need it, by the way) while ignoring AP champs even though they're losing damage too.

And I'm not saying that all AP champs are bad, since things like Diana, Akali, Annie, Malzacancer and so on are still broken because of the nature of their kits (mostly targeted) and their absurd base damages to make up for bad items... but when's the last time you saw a Viktor doing well? Taliyah? Xerath? Generally anyone with skillshots that isn't popular or a meme (Vel, for example, is a source of a lot of bad jokes and is somewhat well-known, so his base values are high enough to compenstate for items).

30 Comments

Ahris3 votes

I do think Riot kept on nerfing APs way too much over the course of many seasons. The mage item "rework" was an overall nerf to their entire itemization.

From all mages, I would say Ahri needs the most help. Many other mage is doing fine, and having them buffed would be quite annoying. Having the weak one stronger to balance, and from there we can talk about buffing APs or not.

Phantom Blues1 votes

Yeah Ahri is super mana-hungry in lane. However there are plenty of options in Sorcoery tree right now to make her life in lane more comfortable, which is definitely a good sign.

Ahris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phantom Blues,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZbIGLEt,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-07T03:46:50.440+0000)

Yeah Ahri is super mana-hungry in lane. However there are plenty of options in Sorcoery tree right now to make her life in lane more comfortable, which is definitely a good sign.

Ahri doesnt scale into late game, so getting life comfortable runes will just ruin her ability to do anything in game.

Niyumi3 votes

In my mind, Riot is nerfing AP while buffing AD because AD is simply easier to play. Whales are almost entirely bad at the game, and so they can't play mages who have to aim and combo correctly and all that stuff. AD, you just click and win, so they're more profitable being strong. But, you know, tinfoil hats should be worn when talking to me, since Riot doesn't lie and is such a great company and all that.

Ahri is a bit weak mid game if you don't snowball, I can agree, but her lane phase is cancer and doesn't need a buff. If anything, give a bit of base damage to later ranks in her W and ult, and maybe a higher scaling on her Q (VERY SLIGHT).

chipndip12 votes

Oh dear Christ this post...[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Iota Theta2 votes

Well for one, MR runes are thrown out, so AP champs do get more damage in a way, and will still get decent starting AP from the new system, as well as some handy runes.

Also, when did I last see Taliyah doing well? Pro-play, worlds, etc. Viktor is just out of meta but still a good pick. Vel and Xerath both still really chunk their enemies, but they also don’t fit the current meta. Both are still strong though.

Phantom Blues1 votes

Agreed. One has to understand missile speed and make predictions to land skillshots more frequently. Of course they do damage when they hit and do no damage when they miss :P Taliyah has a massive 70% win rate on Korean Challenger ladder because those people truly master her.

Niyumi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phantom Blues,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZbIGLEt,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-11-07T03:52:49.992+0000)

Agreed. One has to understand missile speed and make predictions to land skillshots more frequently. Of course they do damage when they hit and do no damage when they miss :P

That, and every skillshot I can think of does less damage than most targeted abilities.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

That, and every skillshot I can think of does less damage than most targeted abilities.

You have clearly not seen a Vel, Ziggs, or Xerath Q

Niyumi1 votes

Outliers are... just that.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Outliers are... just that.

Ok, let’s just ignore champs whose entire kits are skillshots and say skillshots do less damage. Guess we Can also ignore Cannon Jayce Q, Varus Q, Lux, AP Ezreal, Syndra, Taliyah, Orianna, Viktor, etc.

waiting for WoW2 votes

At least assassins can't stack 24 lethality runes anymore and buy a hexdrinker first back while still 2 shotting everything. I guess that's something for now.

Niyumi1 votes

They don't need to stack lethality now since the loss of armor runes / masteries, increased base AD on a lot of champs and increased ability damage on top of masteries specifically helping assassins overshadow them.

In fact, they probably do MORE damage now, and still first-buy a Hexdrinker and make us absolutely worthless since mages are going to do less damage across the board.

Phantom Blues1 votes

...I don't think you did careful calculations for AP champions. Do you know that with the removal of innate magic resistance from old runes, all magic abilities will do more damage? Magic penetration from old runes only penetrates 9 magic resistance, whereas you can have at least 12 bonus magic resistance at level 1...That is the reason why they didn't make any changes to magic resistance or magic penetration.

Niyumi4 votes

We're also losing armor runes and armor from masteries, yet AD champs are getting +5-10 damage almost across the board, and we're buffing base AD on a lot of champs. Tanks are getting an increase to base armor sure, but not a lot of squishies are.

And, right now, I start a game with 52 AP. Next patch, I'll start with what, 20 (32 less than I have now)? Whatever Doran's has, since there's no such thing as base AP. That's a big loss in damage.

So, AD champs are being overall buffed, while AP champs are getting overall nerfed since base MR isn't going down at all and there is no base AP for us to fall back on. AP champs literally won't do any damage until they back, while AD champs are doing fine right from the get go, and dramatically outscale us even though AP champs are supposed to dominate early and mid game.

Phantom Blues1 votes

Excuse me? Did you try the new Rune Reforged system? Every path actually grants you a bonus. For example, if you are a mage and picks Sorcery tree, you will get 18 AP at level 1.

Niyumi2 votes

Okay, so right now, I walk into lane UNIVERSALLY and have 52 AP.

Next season I walk into lane and have 38 or 45 AP.

Not only that, but I lose masteries that give increased ability damage, I lose spell pen in masteries, I lose masteries that give armor, I lose runes that give armor... In short, I'm doing a lot less damage, but every AD champ is doing a lot more.

Phantom Blues1 votes

...From what I saw, many of the good runes of ADC and assassin now require takedowns (aka kills) to stack, whereas mages just get good poke or good mana regen or good CDR overall. Like, for a mage, mana regen and CDR can actually be more important than simple damage. Also, point-and-click abilities deal about 30%-50% less damage than skillshots in general. I don't know where u get the idea of point-and-click abilities dealing more damage than skillshots, I want to see examples...

Niyumi1 votes

So, first off, when lifesteal is a thing and as cheap as it is, poke is a fucking joke.

Secondly, here, I'll list of just one and done point and click abilities that out-damage skillshots. I'll ignore PBAoEs that you can't miss and call them a skillshot.

Annie Q

Akali Q + auto

Anivia E

Khazix Q

Elise Both forms of Q

Ekko E

LeeSin ult

Malzahar E or ult

Pantheon Q

Sejuani E

Shyvana Q

Sona Q + auto

Syndra ult

Talon Q (ESPECIALLY if it crits)

Tristana ult

TwistedFate W + auto

Udyr anything he has

Veigar ult

Vladimir empowered Q

MonkeyKing anything he has minus W

And literally any ADC or AD asasssin autoing once.

Phantom Blues1 votes

Exactly, all these abilities are either ultimate abilities, or have significantly lower ap ratio and base damage than any skillshots...Technically, we r only talking about AP champions...I don't know if u know, but mages like Syndra/Anivia/Vladimir/Veigar really need to stack or hit something first before they can actually unleash their damage output... If adc doesn't have to farm for 20 minutes before they can do any significant damage to champions I would have agreed with you.

dunder kill2 votes

Where are you getting this 52AP from? Normally you walk into lane at level 1 with 30-35 AP at level 1 with Doran's ring

Niyumi1 votes

Doran's Ring, 30 from runes, and Natural Talent.

dunder kill1 votes

30 from runes

Well theres your problem.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

Doran's Ring, 30 from runes, and Natural Talent.

Dude, your runes and masteries set you at 39AP. Your runepage shows 21.4 starting AP, now even counting scaling AP cause it’s <1 at level 1, and natural talent only adds 3 AP at level 1. Doran’s is 15, so you’ve been starting at 39 AP, not 52.

Domination grants you 18 AP and Sorcery grants 25 starting out. With Sorcery and Doran’s, you’ll have your same starting AP, only the enemy won’t have any MR runes to reduce your damage there. If you take absolute focus, that’s an additional 40 AP when above 70% HP. More than you have been starting with, which means mage pokes will do even more damage if the enemy can’t get to them.

Niyumi1 votes

I changed my runes a few days ago. I can take a picture if you want. My old setup was from season 5 and was all over the place, so I fixed it up.

Thing is though, with masteries, you already negate a lot of the MR from runes. We also had masteries to increase ability damage (AD champs are being buffed for losing it, while AP is ignored).

Taking all that away, my early game as a mage is weaker than it used to be, while AD champs are even stronger than they were (and they're absurd right now) - on top of new, bullshit runes tailored to them.

And poke means fuck all when lifesteal is as cheap as it is, and we have all kinds of new runes to boost it / heal even more. Plus, you know, Maw of Invincibility makes any AP champ irrelevant in lane as is.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

I changed my runes a few days ago. I can take a picture if you want. My old setup was from season 5 and was all over the place, so I fixed it up.

Please do. I really want to see why having that much AP in runes was so necessary that you had to sacrifice other stuff.

Thing is though, with masteries, you already negate a lot of the MR from runes. We also had masteries to increase ability damage (AD champs are being buffed for losing it, while AP is ignored).

Masteries, you had either Precision which was scaling flat Magic Pen, which only started at 1.75, or the %magic pen mastery from Ferocity, but %pen is better against tanks than squishies.

The damage amps were to compensate for the loss of Savagery, the 5 extra damage to minions, which there is now a passive for auto attacks (mages still auto when farming), and since minions have 0 MR, you can’t really do more damage to them than you already have been.

Taking all that away, my early game as a mage is weaker than it used to be, while AD champs are even stronger than they were (and they're absurd right now) - on top of new, bullshit runes tailored to them.

Have you even tried the runes on PBE? Read them?

One precision rune is Warlord’s Bloodlust, mostly for early game. another is a hyperscale rune which you need decent attack speed to take advantage of. You might hit an AS of 4 at lategame, but you basically have to have all AS items by that point which also isn’t optimal (max AS is 2.5, which with Lethal Tempo puts you at 4.5 AS..but that is a sub optimal build as you don’t have any real AD). The last requires you to auto the same target three times in a row, which can be a challenge if you get jumped in a teamfight.

You lost a touch of AP (let’s face it, running 30 AP in runes isn’t optimal), AD lost their MR runes and have no MR in the new system unless the take resolve or sorcery secondary for Mirror Shell or Nullifying Orb, respectively. There are no more lethality runes, so your armor basically got a buff until they enemy carry actually buys lethality. You also got health buffs like everyone else.

Also, AD champs got minor increases to stats and damage. All their abilities that were buffed were buffed by a whopping 5 damage.

And poke means fuck all when lifesteal is as cheap as it is, and we have all kinds of new runes to boost it / heal even more. Plus, you know, Maw of Invincibility makes any AP champ irrelevant in lane as is.

And without Lethality runes and lifesteal masteries, you take less damage from them early on and they can’t rush Hexdrinker without throwing off their damage. The only lifesteal a midlane AD has would be a Doran’s Blade, unless they run Ravenous Hunter, at which point they get 2.5% of their ability’s damage as a heal, so your poke will be more effective against them, especially with Arcane Comet.

waiting for WoW1 votes

{quoted}

We're also losing armor runes and armor from masteries, yet AD champs are getting +5-10 damage almost across the board, and we're buffing base AD on a lot of champs. Tanks are getting an increase to base armor sure, but not a lot of squishies are.

And, right now, I start a game with 52 AP. Next patch, I'll start with what, 20 (32 less than I have now)? Whatever Doran's has, since there's no such thing as base AP. That's a big loss in damage.

So, AD champs are being overall buffed, while AP champs are getting overall nerfed since base MR isn't going down at all and there is no base AP for us to fall back on. AP champs literally won't do any damage until they back, while AD champs are doing fine right from the get go, and dramatically outscale us even though AP champs are supposed to dominate early and mid game.

You get 25 AP for specializing in sorcery actually. 18 for Domination.

Call Me Nana1 votes

prepare for the preseason shit storm.

[sg-ahri-1]

Niyumi2 votes

I mean this entire season has been a shit storm, and preseason is just goinna double down on it.

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