So, you know Rito...

Niyumi·Nov 25, 2016·52 votes·2,091 views

Maybe, instead of forcing people to play a role they don't want to (support, in this case), you should look at why people don't want to play that role?

Just a thought.

59 Comments

WeatheredNov 25, 201619 votes

I'm face palming at the fact that they literally just put out multiple articles about trying to reanalyze the support role and intend to make some changes.

Yet you still are making this post and it is getting upvotes.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

UlriahNov 25, 20167 votes

Duh, because people are still forced to play a role they don't want, even in freaking normals.

NiyumiNov 26, 20162 votes

They've put out those articles, but they haven't done anything to show they're trying.

Ariel the CruelNov 26, 20165 votes

(Apparently the forum mods now have issues with sarcastic straw-mans. Also, I take offense to calling the deleted post "low-effort".)

It would be reckless to implement changes on something before they finish analyzing the associated data.

HazyCloud7Nov 26, 20162 votes

And it's not like the support role is in a bad spot right now. A large part of so few people playing it is that the people that previously played support as their secondary role wont queue up for it because they end up getting it too often.

Awesomedude8888Nov 26, 20161 votes

Not to be rude, but: where are these articles? I would like to see what they're doing to make support great again.

japan hate accNov 25, 20169 votes

How original.

NiyumiNov 25, 20165 votes

I mean, Rito has never been very good at listening to anyone but themselves. Gotta say things several hundred times before they notice.

Then you just gotta hope they listen.

japan hate accNov 25, 20163 votes

Yeah I suppose that's true, but they are getting better about that.

HepoliteNov 25, 20165 votes

I understand the need to autofill. However, the problem is forcing people into roles they do not want, or cannot play. This isn't always a problem, but sometimes it can lead to huge failure. Like it, or not, the majority of people cannot play all 5 roles in the game. Generally, I'd say the majority can play at least 4 out of 5. If you are going to autofill a role, and force someone into that position, why can't there be a secondary check? Like an afk check, but only pops up if the person is autofilled. It would be something like -

You have been assigned the role of Support (or whatever). Are you confident in this position?

Yes No

If you click - Yes - you join the champ selection.

If you click - No - it tosses you back in the game queue.

The GovernerNov 26, 20161 votes

That defeats the entire purpose of Autofill and stretches the queue time back to the unhealthy state like before.

Look, I am not saying I agree with the way Autofill works but Autofill does serve the purpose of shortening the queue time, believe it or not.

Awesomedude8888Nov 26, 20161 votes

And not everyone wants a quick queue just to play some position that they suck at. Besides, if the queue time does get too long some people might just cave in and play support.

BârdNov 26, 20165 votes

Simple.

The job of a support is to make it easier for the carries to carry.

Supports don't get to do the carrying very often, and people don't like that.

VerdadeNov 26, 20161 votes

Actually, i don't mind "not being carry" as long as im relevant to the game, and not just shield/ward bot.

UlriahNov 25, 20164 votes

That's called effort mate. They're too busy not releasing the long awaited Lux skin.

DengedenNov 26, 20164 votes

They've done that repeatedly. Do what none of the Gameplay complainers do and read the patchnotes.

FlahertyNov 25, 20163 votes

People don't want to play the role because it is generally more passive, more team cooperation oriented, and has significantly less kill potential. Every type of rpg or team based game (other than CoD) has a support role and it's always the least popular role.

NiyumiNov 25, 20163 votes

Yep. So, how do you solve that issue without entirely changing the support role to something it's not?

FlahertyNov 25, 20163 votes

Honestly, I don't think you can ever "solve" this issue, the best anyone can do is make the role slightly more popular by either making much more diverse champions that have unique abilities or give support champions more damage so people feel like they are doing more. Or remove in game stats that show how many kills/deaths someone has so people become less focused on having high kda's and more focused on objectives and teamwork.

AtanchanNov 26, 20161 votes

It's solvable, just in a way that's pretty blatantly not something they want to do nor is it really hard to see why. Support as a role is pretty much clogged down to keeping your carry alive most of the time, which if you compare to DOTA's support role there's not only much more variance, but a lot more action in that variance. Sure, there's passive stuff like standing around jungle camps to stack them ( and maybe clear them for fast levels for supports that can do that ) and sitting by runes to help any Bottle carriers secure it, but there's also a helluva lot more roaming and a typical lane setup is two or three people in one team's safelane and a solo in the other's offlane ... which meet each other, meaning that versus a solo offlane you can be actively pulling and zoning the enemy offlaner to legitimately keep him at level 1 if you're good enough. Or the enemy supports don't interfere, because that's something they can do.

Not only is there really none of that in League, but even trying to roam as a support is liable to get your carry dived by the enemy botlaners and the jungler, meaning aggressive movements need to be really well timed and have good intuition or vision towards where the enemy jungler is ... so in solo queue, you're going to be sticking with your carry for a loooooong time.

I mean, support isn't super popular in DOTA either, but you'll definitely see more people willing to play support once you climb out of the trench. Issue is, trying to do this stuff for League would probably take rebuilding the map and many other things from the ground up given how much is built around the current lane setup, and it could very well lead to stuff that would be very unsatisfying to Riot ( such as the hard zoning that offlaners can have to deal with ). Support might just be kinda doomed unless people discover another alternate way to lane ala lane swaps, but without being so objectively better than the current setup ( provided you can do it right ) that it leads to an even staler meta than what the current setup provides.

VerdadeNov 26, 20161 votes

I enjoy playing supports in Heroes of the storm, i enjoy playing supports in RIFT (only MMO with working buff classes). I really don't enjoy playing supports in League.

For example, Tyrande, Rehgar or Tassadar feel really good to play.

Tassadar's kit: P: usable, get increased vision (+vision over walls) for 5 seconds Q: Shield, stronger when cast on ally W: targeted AOE DOT E: invisibility and invincibility for 1.5 seconds R: Either Anivia's wall or transform buff that gives him huge AD and HP boost

Tyrande's kit P: usable, increases damage taken by 25% and reveals target for 4 seconds Q: Heal yourself, if targeted on ally heals him more W: Ashe's E that actually deals damage (global, very thin skillshot, reveals area where it flies) E: Targeted delayed stun with very decent range, yet very small radius R: Stealth to everyone around her and heal everyone over 8 seconds OR GP's ult

Rehgar's kit: P: Out of combat MS boost, first auto makes you leap at enemy and deal bonus damage Q: Heal target for medium amount, chain to 2 other allies for lesser amount W: Buff ally so that he deals medium damage over time near hime (sunfire cape on target?) E: Place totem that heavily slows everything around it, destroyable R: Either massive AOE AS boost or huge (yet delayed) single-target heal

How come these works and our supports don't?

MikakuraNov 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

People don't want to play the role because it is generally more passive, more team cooperation oriented, and has significantly less kill potential. Every type of rpg or team based game (other than CoD) has a support role and it's always the least popular role.

Not in Battlefield. Every role is well balanced. You have your heavy machince gun and explosives as supp, RPG, SMAW, Javelin and Stinger as engineer, Medkit and defibrillator as assault, and of course, sniper rifle, C4, and beacon as Recon.

NiyumiNov 26, 20161 votes

How can you translate that into League though?

5000000000000000Nov 26, 20161 votes

They fill different roles, and each role has different utility that they bring into the team. In League, most of the utility is concentrated on the support. Based on what Mikakura said, I think the utility in Battlefield is spread out. If there was a class in Battlefield that does little to no damage, and focus on providing utility, while the rest of the team does all the damage. I'm guessing that role wouldn't be very popular.

That said, when I looked up popularity in Overwatch (probably more similar to League than Battlefield), the most popular heroes (not just most popular supports!) are Lucio and Mercy, both of which do little to no damage and focus on providing utility. Other supports seem pretty unpopular, though. Maybe we can learn something from that, although I'm not sure what.

NiyumiNov 26, 20161 votes

Well, Lucio and Mercy have really active playstyles, where you're doing a lot, moving around, doing a bit of damage, and all that. In League, you're limited to four buttons and mechanics that exist in League, which means you can't get too interesting. A lot of supports are really passive and not all that interesting, which I think is part of the issue.

As for Overwatch, Ana and Zenyata are both kind of passive (Zenyata less so).

5000000000000000Nov 26, 20161 votes

http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes Ana was the second least popular hero, and Zenyatta is also very low. Symmetra, too.

http://www.lolking.net/champions Based on lolking (using this instead of champion.gg because we're discussing fun factor, not power), the most popular support is Thresh at ~26%. The second most popular is Morgana at ~18%, and then Blitzcrank at ~14%. The least popular supports are Taric, Tahm Kench, and Zilean at about 3%. So I think you're right in passive supports being less popular than active supports, in general. Some outliers are Vel'Koz at 5.7%, and Alistar at 10%. These are both pretty active, but have low play rate. I'd also argue that Zyra being at 9% is also pretty low based on how active Zyra plays. Not to mention, Zyra isn't weak, either.

The least popular champions, Urgot and Galio, are least popular because they seem weak (whether or not they really are is up to debate).

NiyumiNov 26, 20161 votes

So, the champs who have a lot of player input and feel rewarding / are fun to watch are played a lot (Lucio, Mercy, Thresh, Blitz, etc.), while the more passive / straight-forward ones aren't as popular.

Would making more supports engaging help solve the issue? People seem to enjoy playing Thresh and Blitz, and they're funny to watch since people go flying -- but people don't like playing someone like Braum or Janna, and they don't really do a whole lot but get in your way.

Is that the issue? People just get bored playing traditional supports?

5000000000000000Nov 26, 20161 votes

While fun is subjective, I think it feels pretty fun and rewarding to land a good Braum ultimate, or shielding an ally at the right moment as Janna. Or even Zyra's ultimate or her poke combo in lane. I'd also say Morgana isn't very fun to play. Maybe I'm an outlier in this? Is Morgana really more fun to play than Zyra?

PermabannedGarenNov 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They fill different roles, and each role has different utility that they bring into the team. In League, most of the utility is concentrated on the support. Based on what Mikakura said, I think the utility in Battlefield is spread out. If there was a class in Battlefield that does little to no damage, and focus on providing utility, while the rest of the team does all the damage. I'm guessing that role wouldn't be very popular.

That said, when I looked up popularity in Overwatch (probably more similar to League than Battlefield), the most popular heroes (not just most popular supports!) are Lucio and Mercy, both of which do little to no damage and focus on providing utility. Other supports seem pretty unpopular, though. Maybe we can learn something from that, although I'm not sure what.

In Overwatch you can switch to a support hero after the match already starts.

You also have to consider that Lucio and Mercy are played more than any other heroes because in Overwatch not having a healer is essentially trolling, and those two are by far the most popular heroes.

5000000000000000Nov 26, 20161 votes

Thank you for the insight. I don't play Overwatch so I don't know much :/

RainbowIceeNov 26, 20162 votes

As a support player I 100% agree! in my opinion! nothing really new happens in support lane.

We get no new champions
Sightstone changes or builds don't offer any interesting or fun mechanics
The new support item ( that beam light ) finally added something interesting and fun for the role rather than just an armor that you pair up with the adc so they can crit more ( lame as shit )

My suggestion is to do or make the role more unique ? atm it just a filler role for whatever the team is lacking. Team needs a tank , support has it. Needs cc ? support has it. Engage ? support has it. As for the wards is everyone's responsibility not just the support so maybe sightstone itself should build up into carry items too to encourage it. What I personally think is that maybe support should have a more define role rather than just assisting the adc? Maybe some item and mastery changes can have the support be a better and more direct debuffer or objective controller.

Idk what riot has planned for the role though however i've played support long enough to know it's just going to push the support role more towards a carry role to appeal to the masses in which the carry players will abuse the support items in their regular champs then followed by said items being nerfed and not be used again so nothing in the end will change.. sigh

BârdNov 26, 20163 votes

Out of the last 10 champions, 4 of them can be played as a support
Item changes rarely bring interesting mechanics in any role. The supports themselves, however, often have very fun kits.
Redemption? Yes, it is interesting. Its healing is broken right now, but is an interesting item. Zekes could use a change, too (maybe movement speed and damage amp instead of Crit and AP?)

DarkRitualNov 26, 20163 votes

Redemption healing isn't OP by itself. When you have Windspeakers and one other Idol item, then it gets kinda dumb.

RainbowIceeNov 26, 20162 votes

this is a bad argument because Ivern is jungle and taliah is clearly a mid laner. Even if you can play them as support doesn't mean they were champs designed for it. It's like saying all ap supports can be played mid so there's no need for a new mid champ. Besides have you seen how many bruisers/fighters we have for top lanes and they keep releasing more ? Ivern doesn't count as a support main role so we didn't have an actual bot support release this year aside from the taric rework but hey! look at yoric, along with illoi late last year, and kled before summer and now we have a new champ.. also going top. So we are talking about making bot lane support better and more interesting you're... you're just trying to one up me for no reason? what was your agenda ? or purpose? mayor ADC rework with item revamps happened and they get a new adc release all cool nice! mayor assasin and mage rework same year with item revamps primary role is mid cool. So when you start a game and see everyone going ADC , TOP , MID! gee why would it be? maybe there's enough bread to go around in those roles with more champs, items, builds, things to Cather to more broad fun. Junglers themselves while not having many actual changes has quite the large roster with very varied kits. Look at skarner, his crystals hate them or love them add some variety. Look at lee sin... being lee sin, the mole being a mole sneaking around, and champs like ivern and kindred which i don't have to explain why he's a different sauce at a salad bar. If you only care about winning the game then yea the game is perfect doesn't actually really need anything else. Now if you wanna make the game more fun and varied for every role and have more people participate in bot lane support then don't be like Just play a "mid laner or a jungle bot" because then you have full AP building champions that only do damage and refuse to help the team, they only help themselfves.

Itemization brings a lot of things and mechanics together in the game whether you're conscious of them or not. item 3742 was a very welcome item in the game where omen was highly dominant. item 3022 is making it's way up to being a very popular item to get in different builds and let's not forget Zzrot that change the builds and play style of some champions.

JerulEonNov 26, 20162 votes

Meddler did address this. The developers are working on fixing the issues of why people don't like to play support. I have the same sentiment as you. Hopefully they have more stuff planned after the preseason.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/free-rotation/some-thoughts-support

HazyCloud7Nov 26, 20162 votes

Its the least popular role because for the most part playing support involves enabling others to carry. It doesn't matter what they change about the role, I'm never going to enjoy it as much as mid lane, or even adc and jungle. I'm not sure there is any game where support isn't the least popular role.

Their items are absolutely incredible right now (Knight's Vow & Redemption are incredible + Brand/Zyra will get Rylai's a lot quicker now after the upcoming pbe nerfs), there are great playmaking supports like Bard/Thresh/Leona and supports that have so much damage that we occasionally see them outdamage their other laners in competitive (Brand/Zyra, and Vel Koz can do that in soloque)

Playing with a good thresh main for example is really something you have to experience for yourself; they can almost single handedly snowball a game with timely picks & roams. Support isn't perfect right now (they get too behind in exp) but its a lot better than it was earlier this season and it is rewarding if you put the time in to learn the role.

2BeholdNov 26, 20162 votes

They are http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/free-rotation/some-thoughts-support

JalkanNov 25, 20161 votes

back in my day there was no role selection, if you were last pick then you played support and you were stuck with it.

NiyumiNov 26, 20162 votes

I was always a fill main back in the day, and I actually got every role. So I don't know why no one plays support anymore.

DarkRitualNov 26, 20164 votes

Seasons 1-5: Everyone has to support from time to time. People might not like it, but they accept it.

Season 6: People can completely avoid having to play support often, sometimes never at all.

Season 7: Everyone has to support from time to time. The sky is falling, the Rapture has finally come, and the world is going to explode in 5 minutes (or like 12 DBZ episodes).

Season 6 spoiled people. Plain and simple. But, people will get used to it. The whining and crying will die down eventually, and we will fall back into everyone recognizing that they will have to play support from time to time.

Ariel the CruelNov 26, 20161 votes

The problems with support are systemic to the design of the game. It's not that The problems are unknown, it's that no method has been found to address them without a complete overhaul of the game.

lolouieNov 26, 20161 votes

i DO hope you know Riot's didn't implement the autofill system just cus they wanna fk around with us.

No one wants to play support. That's why they force u to play it, otherwise there wouldn't be a game.

TrenitaliyahNov 26, 20161 votes

People would never play support (the ones that already hate to be that) not even if they changed the whole inventory or skills or whatever. They just don't want to play it! Can you blame them (if you're not support main)? Of course no. I think Riot should add a new role into the world of League of Legends, maybe one you can play in the botlane with your adc, and make us choose what to play, then all choices would be strategies.

nergalsfangNov 26, 20161 votes

play illaoi support.

SwaidNov 26, 20161 votes

Why I don't like to play support? My success pretty much relies on a total stranger not being retarded and if that stranger is retarded, I'm pretty much out of the game and its just a wash.

kitcat300Nov 26, 20161 votes

Look at preseason. Made Locket its own niche instead of a must purchase (simultaneously buffing AP mid), two new items for healers and tanks, and reduced Item costs across the board. Saying they they are not trying to make it more desirable is just false.

At the end of the day, most players want to carry the game on their back, and playing support clashes with that belief.

Its not the role,** It's player mentality. **

SpecterVonBarenNov 26, 20161 votes

Why do people not play support? Turns out most people are assholes that don't want to help other people and just want to solo carry.

Is Riot capable of changing human nature? No.

Guess we go with Autofill then.

MonkeyMadnessNov 26, 20161 votes

Because this community is rife with selfish dooshnozzles that don't want to play as a team. Also, there are plenty of asshats that think they are God's gift to gaming, and if they don't get their carry role, the rest of their team will cause them to lose. Either way, people like these (you included) need to understand that a good support is ESSENTIAL for a win. Accept this, or stay out of my way in ranked, I don't need people like you.

NiyumiNov 26, 20161 votes

Hey, I never said I have an issue playing support. Hell, I was a support main for the first several months I played.

But, people don't like the autofill, so we should look at why people hate playing support so much.