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i miss when i could be tanky because i had tank items

Moody P··84 votes·18,100 views

and not because I had some ridiculous combination of self-shielding, % damage reduction, or outright ignoring damage altogether

remember when you didn't need to have any of that to be durable as long as you just built for being durable? remember when most tanks didn't have a whole ability slot dedicated specifically to temporary tankiness and it was usually just a passive

nowadays I can have >5k health on Volibear, with solid investment in resists, and I'll just vanish in 3 seconds as soon as I draw focus like I'm supposed to, regardless of how fed I am, because armor and MR don't mean shit after everyone else gets their 3rd item and I don't have any innate eHP booster like a fat 800 hp shield on a 5 second downtime to keep me going.

don't even feel like building randuin's like I used to pick up on every single fighter. Right now you're better off just running flat health for your first 3 items on any fighter who can afford to pick up item 3078 / item 3071 item 3053 item 3748 and this will keep you alive a hell of a lot better than items that don't let you 1-shot anyone squishier than Sion, because right now the best way to survive is just to kill everyone else first.

this game is so frustrating right now, i can't stand that I've lost tons of flat HP and a good chunk of resists that I used to have all because riot insists on passing out absurd defenses to every tank and mobile fighter that they conjure up a design for. I can't even survive on Illaoi with buying Death's Dance anymore, because that damage delay gets crippled by the bonus true damage fighters and marksmen are getting. (800g grievous wounds notwithstanding)

doesn't even feel like there's a point in trying to be tanky right now. in season 8, you either are or you're not

139 Comments

Lovelle II21 votes

It's because the real defensive masteries and runes are gone. They used to accommodate pure defensive items and allowed them to scale into late game. There is no such scaling anymore that can't be completely nullified by penetration (along with the plethora of damage-enhancing runes and %hp damage). That's why most tankiness comes from a champion's kit now, rather than through itemization.

So Sorry Eh3 votes

This may be the best point. How many runes are for damage and how many for defense.

Lovelle II5 votes

{quoted}

This may be the best point. How many runes are for damage and how many for defense.

For ones that actually scale well into late game? It's pretty much just Nullifying Orb and Aftershock. In order for damage to not be so out of control, we need masteries like these back in the game. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Honor_Guard Damage was already pretty crazy after such masteries were removed, but once Runes Reforged became a thing that's when everything spiraled out of control.

ArtumisPrime5 votes

Looking at these masteries brings a tear to my eye.

I wish I could pimpslap Riot in the throat for bastardizing this game that I loved for so long.

Jamaree19 votes

I remember the complaints about how slow the games were and how boring they were when building tanky was the best idea, but that is just me, sure, damage is too high, but I feel like people were too quick to forget the opposite end of the spectrum.

MrFawknSunshine21 votes

im tired of "bruisers' being tankier then tanks while having damage output

AggressiveWolf4 votes

Tbh as a bruiser main we still are squishy as fuck until we get item 3053. Honestly as Darius my entire line of thinking is 'How can I be as useful as possible before I get fucking obliterated the moment the enemy Kai'sa looks at me'

Ifneth2 votes

If you’re playing Darius as the frontline of a 3-item teamfight, you’re going to have a bad time. He’s meant to win lane and snowball into a splitpusher. Find flanks during fights or wait for your tanks, if any, to engage before following them up.

MrFawknSunshine3 votes

well my issue is laning phase

i have made this comparison many of times

darius lvl 1 has more base hp , same armor and mr and more ms then maokai darius gets free damage from passive stacks, free armor pen, true damage on ult and then more damage for conqueror

as maokai i have no recourse in lane but to hope i dont get caught cuz darius has a ranged grab/slow and ranged aoe damage while moving faster then i can, have more damage then i do, and he heals too plus his 1st item phage makes him faster then i can be at all unless i take celerity and take boots to start the game. then i might have a chance.

i know darius should counter maokai thats not my complaint. my complaint i am a full tank who has less def stats then darius who flat out damages me in any trade. nothing in my runes gives me really any survive-ability in lane what so ever. if i get armor he had true damage and armor pen, if i get boots i have no def stats to sustain. if i build pure hp he still wins trades.

and its not just darius , this is just an example since you used him. garen, is another issue. kled OMFG what bullshit he has more hp then tanks at nearly every point of the game with % hp damage based on AD he builds.

top lane meta is bruiser ignite conqueror meta and those who can use it the best are typically king of the mountain.

sion is an exception but i have seen sion go full ad /leathality

i might be a bit bias (i am a maokai otp ) but in my opinion tanks are at the worst they have been in a long time as a whole. and its cuz of the runes.

Moody P21 votes

damage isn't even too high, defense is just complete fucking ass right now

LilxPaprika9 votes

I like how enemy can be all AD and have like 1 ap support like Brand and that's enough to have to worry about still equipping MR.

Poske6 votes

{quoted}

I like how enemy can be all AD and have like 1 ap support like Brand and that's enough to have to worry about still equipping MR.

Meanwhile vice versa one thing I learnt from playing Tournaments

IF YOU HAVE FULL AD COMP - Barely matters If you have full AP COMP - Might aswell FF 20 if the enemy team can build

LordGeovanni2 votes

ad team comps beat tanks because pen and crit are base ad builds. Mages dont beat crit because they dont build pen first when they see tanks they go the same build they always do with flat pen and mega scaling items and cry that they cant do anything while chunking 80% of a tanks hp in one half second combo that is back up on 3 seconds. while still having the option to ignore their scaling build ad and crit because ranged auto attacks still make it effective

Neptunia xoxo2 votes

{quoted}

I like how enemy can be all AD and have like 1 ap support like Brand and that's enough to have to worry about still equipping MR.

I mean yeah when a mage builds full AP you probably want to get at least 1 MR item... lol

Poske2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-10-17T00:42:39.382+0000)

damage isn't even too high, defense is just complete fucking ass right now

I have been preaching that for months...

EVERYONE > HURDURHURURU POWER CREEPPPP ME > NO ITS DEFENSE GUTTING EVERYONE > POWER CREEEP ME > OK KAISA ACTUALLY IS JUST A POWER CREPT BLSHIT BUT GENERALY ITS DEFENSE GUTTING PATCHES USSUALY NERF EVERYONE > POWER CREEPPP SHEEP MEEMEMEMEME MEMEM EMEME MEM

Moody P3 votes

remember when health regen was a relevant stat?

remember when you could expect most bruisers to have, like, a Triforce, a BORK or ravenous hydra, just 1 damage item maybe 2, and then they'd go full tank?

miss those days hard rn

Spicy Rice3 votes

Honestly, having sustain of any kind be relevant is kind of aids.

It makes poke irrelevant, unless the poke is able to one shot

Moody P3 votes

we had a pretty well-rooted siege meta in season 4 with ziggs, syndra and old Athene's. hp regen was fairly relevant back then and didn't counter poke near as much as current warmog's does right now

also on the flip side poke meta is the worst meta i've ever had to play through as a melee main, so >:^)

UnboundHades15 votes

so if the ENTIRE enemy team is focuses you with everything you should be able to just walk out alive on a champ that does more damage with health

resists still do matter if your team isnt just standing still for 3 seconds doing fuck all and you know how to actually time your engage

Moody P6 votes

1 spell on an 18 second cooldown that gets outdamaged by any bruiser with a Triforce and an AA reset even at max damage. wow, absolutely insane champ ur right

would be nice if i could notice my passive activate before i drop instantly - you know, like how building tank should let me tank? interesting thought isn't it

UnboundHades12 votes

its almost like your passive rewards you for getting our for a moment to heal back up instead of expecting to stand still and live through 5 people while most likely affected by grievous wounds, and you are gonna be tanking unless your team is literally afk or you decided that you can walk in 1v5 and kill people. If a tank could survive for over 5 seconds while being completely focused by 5 people then something is wrong with the game not if you die in 3 seconds after being focused down, and 3 seconds isnt even a short amount of time in team fights

Moody P5 votes

getting out of a fight as a low-mobility melee doesn't happen. passive is there to encourage you to keep fighting, not to leave. but y'know everyone's a nuke right now and 800g = no passive

i could take any modern tank and easily last for twice as long with fewer items because of innate survival tools like shields or % dmg reduction

Ralanr5 votes

Isn’t that the point of tanks? To be more durable than most other classes?

Moody P2 votes

juggernauts are intended to be durable too; and yet unless you're urgot mundo or aatrox it aint really the case

Ralanr3 votes

I know they are. I don’t believe they are intended to be as durable as tanks, or their durability is more through their sustain mechanics that should be scaling with health (hence why most core juggernaut items outside of deadman’s and visage (which is mainly bought for its ability to increase said healing) are AD and health items (Steraks, BC, Titanic Hydra, frozen Mallet, triforce)). Granted some of those are utilized heavily by divers as well, which can lead them to feeling like better juggernauts.

FSRER1 votes

May i ask here what Garen is supposed to be now? Because he will die in a teamfight quite easily (oldschool garen here building first item item 3068 then going for item 3065) and in lane if the enemy is ranged or mixed, he wont be able to get his main damage off which i believe it is q with grasp (q alone sucks). So what is he? a juggernaut? a tank? a diver? what is he?

Ralanr2 votes

Garen is a juggernaut because that’s what his kit is designed to function as.

FSRER1 votes

Juggernaut eh? So as you already said that means he is not supposed to be as durable as a tank (even tho if you buy him at store he is named a tank). Right now he is the same with darius i think, a lane bully which will pop like a baloon in a teamfight so he has to constantly push and kill with ult everyone that comes against him. If i am wrong correct me, at that he is not clearly a juggernaut nor a tank, and slowly becomes a bruiser (heck, even in reccomended items they want him to get steraks not because of the damage but the advantage it will give him in a 1v1)

Ralanr2 votes

  1. Bruiser isn’t exactly an official class term. It’s pretty much synonymous with the term “fighter” as a whole. One could argue Camille and Illaoi are bruisers but it wouldn’t help diversify what the champions are.

  2. Arguably juggernaut is pretty much the new name for most classic bruisers (but like I said, this is arguable).

  3. The primary and secondary category system is still in the client for god knows why (Riot being slow at changing the client I’d wager) when it is already outdated. I mean, for fucks sake they list Xerath as secondary Assassin and GP I think is still listed as secondary support. You understand how ludicrous that is based on how they play and how those roles operate right?

  4. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

That’s where you get information on who is what class. I’m honestly annoyed that Riot hasn’t implemented this into the damn client yet.

FSRER1 votes

I would like to comment your 3rd and 4th point.

The primary and secondary category system is still in the client for god knows why (Riot being slow at changing the client I’d wager) when it is already outdated. I mean, for fucks sake they list Xerath as secondary Assassin and GP I think is still listed as secondary support. You understand how ludicrous that is based on how they play and how those roles operate right?

Riot is slow, way too slow. They created a new client, a bunch of champions, a bunch of runes, items, reworking items, reworking champions etc but on updating old champions like xerath and especially gp (rip johny boy) playstyles and heck have you ever googled old champions? Lets say that you want to see stuff about xerath at the official league of legends site, want to learn abilities mana costs damage and playstyles.

Welp this is riots official site https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/gameinfo/champions/Xerath/

Yeah it is really helpful isn't it I know I know.. Heres how it could be http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Xerath

The difference is amazing. There isn't a better place to look up on champs abilities.

So that is one thing,

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

It is quite old but not outdated, Riot has never actually bothered to say what class a champion is since the old client (in whichs shop you could see primary role and secondary role easily).

That is because everyone was always arguing about which champions were what. For example at old client store, if I recall correct pantheon was listed as a fighter, which pre-lethality he kinda was but many people argued (and they were also kinda right) that he was a assasin.

So, riot got fed up with it and just removed your ability to see.

Ralanr2 votes

I think we can all agree Riot is dangerously slow when it comes to updating information. It does make actually figuring out how Riot designs and balances certain champions difficult.

Let’s take Pantheon for example. He’s listed as a fighter, or more specifically a diver now. Before he had secondary assassin, and people often build him like an assassin. Does this make him an assassin?

No. He lacks the escape potential of an assassin and can only all in after poking, a trait more common in divers than assassins.

iDarkWind9 votes

Funny, because those good 'old times' were a stupid bear chasing me and right clicking me to the death or burst my ass with his W while being unkillable. Oh well, different perspectives I guess.

Moody P2 votes

volibear is piss easy to play around, idk what your trouble is

iDarkWind2 votes

My problem is that when he's strong and meta he's just a big pile of bullsht stats that outdamages you while being unkillable with his auto attacks and point click burst from a ability that works as execute and scalls off bonus HP. I didn't said that at the moment he's broken, but you complained how he was trashtier and that's the reason he is.

Tahminatrix 6 votes

*laughs in item 3135 *

Moody P13 votes

tell you one thing i'll never get tired of the AP players on boards constantly telling me that "1 MR items makes us soooo useless" when any game I play a mage or ap assassin with a Void and some flat pen will crush my sphincter through 3.5k health and two full MR items item 3065 item 3194

god help me if it's a dps like Cass, double god help me if it's Veigar

Lets have shrex3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T00:24:20.106+0000)

tell you one thing i'll never get tired of the AP players on boards constantly telling me that "1 MR items makes us soooo useless" when any game I play a mage or ap assassin with a Void and some flat pen will crush my sphincter through 3.5k health and two full MR items item 3065 item 3194

god help me if it's a dps like Cass, double god help me if it's Veigar

As a "biased AP players", yes one MR item makes you inherently useless against anything. BUT once you get item 3135 you don't give a shit anymore about MR, and "binary counters" (I don't know how to call it, it's basically "I don't have this, you win. I have this, I win") is a really dumb ass mechanic. I remember when DoT mages used to shit on tanks, now they're useless until they get Void, but so do poke / burst mages.

And also yeah, when I need a "durability item", I also go for those item 3156 item 3053 item 3812 item 3071 because getting a single defensive item like item 3065 doesn't make a single difference

Pika Fox5 votes

The point is youre not supposed to be able to tank forever just by buying defensive items. And offensive items need to break through armor items at some point, as defensive items are inherently superior to offensive ones (doesnt matter how much damage you do if youre dead, and 0 defensive items means base damage will kill you).

Champions designed to be tanky get something to make their ehp skyrocket for a short duration so they can do their job if they play well. Contrary to popular belief, thornmail rush ashe isnt supposed to be good.

Alzon1 votes

The problem is that offensive items overpower defensive items earlier in the game than ever before (IE true damage, Void Staff buffs).

Pika Fox2 votes

Void staff is nerfed compared to much earlier seasons, dfg was removed.

IE true damage is worse than old passive by far until you get something like 250 armor. Thats not "better earlier".

FSRER1 votes

I don't think this thread was made to support that tanks should be alive forever, but yes indeed, a tank is supposed to stay alive. But wouldn't it be great if tanks could survive a entire teamfight but doing absolutely no damage but only knock ups and such? I remember when tanks did that... now i play toplane and i see a ornn and his w which is 200 magic damage once he gets it lvl 2, a maokai that will do damage from nothing, a sions q which will suprisingly do me 210 damage when it gets at lvl 3, I mean come on how am i going to play? All of these tanks have great engage abilities but they will do damage which will only fall of at 30 mins in game.

So, what i try to say is that tanks should be alive forever but do no damage in teamfights and do just enough so they can survive in toplane if grasp is not enough for them.

Pika Fox1 votes

That was never a thing. Amumu always had high damage, as did other tanks. Hell, rammus' passive directly gives him AD.

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2018-10-17T19:10:37.554+0000)

That was never a thing. Amumu always had high damage, as did other tanks. Hell, rammus' passive directly gives him AD.

Bonus example: Malphite’s armor scaling damage and fast, high base and scaling ult.

Pika Fox1 votes

Malphite was a bruiser though, not really a tank.

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=000a0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T21:16:47.986+0000)

Malphite was a bruiser though, not really a tank.

I think that’s one of the first times I’ve heard him not described as a tank. Huh.

Iota Theta5 votes

Part of it is that the a chunk of a tank’s tankiness should come from within their own kit. it allows an easier time balancing one problem tank as opposed to crushing all of them and having to compensate, and adds an element of interaction to a tank as opposed to passive defense. Now tanks have to actually have input to survive, as opposed to just standing there and being nigh unkillable without having to do anything. Volibear vanishing to focus is more a testament to him being an outdated design and more along the lines of a fighter, since his heal is his only defensive skill.

As a reminder, back when tank items were stronger was when we had assassin’s buying tank items, dealing massive base damage and being able to still survive if they happen to fail or can’t escape.

Moody P2 votes

hard disagree, tanks have been much bigger problems for balance team in recent years than they were in the old times. back in the day the issue was that fighters would almost always use the items better since they actually do damage

volibear's not outdated but his stats certainly are; his kit is actually solid on its core after the E buff this season, but he just completely lacks the numbers to support him in a 2018 game

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tZPOcxjE,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-10-17T16:52:51.974+0000)

hard disagree, tanks have been much bigger problems for balance team in recent years than they were in the old times.

Perhaps, but they weren’t necessarily hard balances because of defense, but because of offense. Maokai had the full AP E situation, Sejuani’s passive damage was usually considered her biggest issue, and in Ornn’s case his issue was when they changed his W from %current to %max after a series if other buffs and attempted QoL changes. Now, I’ve been away a bit, but I have yet to hear of any tank being an issue solely because of defense, but rather their defense on top of damage. Which leads me into...

back in the day the issue was that fighters would almost always use the items better since they actually do damage

This is exactly the same situation as the assassin situation I mentioned previously, seen most often by champs like Ekko, Zed, and Akali (at least Sunfire Akali). But that should say something that Fighters were better users of tank items, which means they became unkillable damage dealers, and that takes away from the tanks. So the question is, is it healthier to take nerf fighters or adjust tank stats. Either way, damage dealers becoming unkillable just by tank items was a big issue over the years, and now the power is within the tanks’ kits themselves.

volibear's not outdated but his stats certainly are; his kit is actually solid on its core after the E buff this season, but he just completely lacks the numbers to support him in a 2018 game

Volibear is outdated, both stats and kit. I see that E adjust, and it adds an interesting mechanic, but Volibear’s kit is still a run up and auto kit. Beyond casting E for a dash, there isn’t much in terms of skill expression for him, and either he has the stats and time to drop you or he doesn’t.

Rouwhorst1 votes

Not all assassins could build tank items and still expect to do good. Ekko could buy tanky items because of his high base stats, aoe stun and % heal (which is also a nice getaway spell). longer fights were incentivised with his passive. Akali didn't have too high scalings either and incentivised sticking prolonged durations to targets with the low cooldown abilities and energy restores. The shroud allowed to first soak up a lot of damage and then disappear quickly -something no other tank has (except ekko). Sunfire would go trough shroud continuing dealing damage. Her damage wasn't nearly has high as assasin akali.

Combine that with a meta with a lot of durable fighters and tanks who can stun you (death sentence for a squishy) and you can't really hurt them, and the incentive for a tank build is quite a bit higher than a glass canon build.

Champions like zed, diana, rengar, shaco, talon, kassa, kata, noc and kha would not build tank.

Iota Theta2 votes

I thought there was a time when Zed was doing it. Whoops, My bad. Thank you for those clarifications though.

Edit: fixed a typo. Also adding I saw higher up someone mentioned Zed running Sterak’s....that’s the situation I was thinking of, not tank build, and it was mainly for the health and shield. My bad.

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