Pantheon has had a 53%-55% win rate for about 6 months now if not more

FalconPawwwwnch·Jul 13, 2017·64 votes·3,123 views

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/pantheon/diamond

Are we ever going to talk about this champion?

Not only are his stats absurdly high for top lane which would be enough to consider nerfing him, but he also is one of the most uninteractive champions in the entire game

There is no interacting with pantheon, you either outsustain/outrange his poke or you lose, it's that simple. You can't engage on him because stun + highest base MS in game means he can just get away from you, and even if you do force an all in with him, passive + stun + passive means you lose at least 2 autoattacks which is huge early game.

88 Comments

SujirenJul 13, 201714 votes

He is a monster early and midgame, but has one of the worst lategames of any bruiser if it goes for that long. Even renekton has a better lategame than a pantheon.

HateDaddyJul 13, 201718 votes

{quoted}

He is a monster early and midgame, but has one of the worst lategames of any bruiser if it goes for that long. Even renekton has a better lategame than a pantheon.

Bad late game does not justify overly oppressive and awfully designed early game

LOSINGISMYPRIDEJul 13, 201717 votes

Ppl and their late game argument only tell you to suffer in silence till the late game but if you see is high winrate you can tell he doesnt even reach the supposed late game because roll stomp they close the game for having such a insane early game potential .

BALDG1VEN BOOMERJul 13, 20172 votes

Lol late game? That hasn't existed in about two years.

LankPantsJul 13, 201713 votes

Pantheon deserves to be gutted to the point of unplayability. He's the most braindead champ in the game, he's uninteractive as hell and he's cancer to play against. Riot just needs to do something like bump his Q mana cost from 45 to 100 to ensure he never sees any play again until he can be reworked.

SSJTribeJul 13, 20177 votes

Harsh but accurate

SqueyJul 13, 20172 votes

Ok i understand the frustration, BUT wouldnt u much rather verse a pantheon then fiora or riven? If u manage to put panth behind then he wont ever come back. If u manage to stop his roaming or make equal trades when he does then u auto outscale him. Panth is very strong and does indeed need a rework but there is a reason fiora and riven have higher pick ban rates higher u go up. And in lower brackets replace riven for darius in the bans but no1 bans panth.

LimrickJul 13, 20173 votes

You can outplay Fiora and Riven. Pantheon wins by default unless he's several divisions below you.

LankPantsJul 14, 20173 votes

No, I'd much rather play VS a Riven or a Fiora than a Pantheon. There's much more you can do in lane VS them and the lane isn't the same hell that Pantheon creates.

aceknighthighJul 14, 20171 votes

You won't "manage to put panth behind" unless the other player makes a mistake or you picked one of his counters. You literally have no agency in the lane.

Fiora is rough, as is Riven, but they can be played around. They have to make skillful plays to be oppressive(a Fiora that misses her W is in trouble in a lot of matchups, a Riven relies on her ult, hitting her cc, and animation canceling to win trades or burst), whereas Pantheon just has to hit his point and click kit to auto win many matchups.

Jeanne fan clubJul 13, 201711 votes

Honestly they just need to change the passive. It creates uninteractive, unfun gameplay that leaves no real option to initiate on him. It is just bad design at this point in Leagues lifetime.

SqueyJul 13, 20172 votes

His passive is more apart of his kit then his Q spear. Honestly if panth was ever changed, id hope they keep his passive first and foremost. Its his highest skill expression ability.

SithesisLordJul 13, 20171 votes

Its his highest skill expression ability

Hit something 4 times with AAs and/or abilities

"Highest skill expression ability"

I think you forgot the Kappa or the /s at the end of your sentence.

But i mean, for a champion that´s braindead as hell, sure, i guess it applies.

All Riot needs to do is make his passive work only on abilities, not AAs, make turret shots bypass his shield completely and bump his mana costs by 10 to 20.

Or like another perfectly reasonable suggested change, they could give him the old Poppy treatment, which i´m pretty sure no one would mind.

SqueyJul 13, 20176 votes

lets see, q has no skill expression. e doesnt really either. R does but only so much. managing shield stacks so u can block 3 autos instead of 1 or 2 makes a huge differance. I WISH he had more honestly but right now its what he has and its also unique to him. Just like properly using jax counterstrike is skill expression, same goes for panth passive and w combination.

Rand0mH3r0XJul 13, 20171 votes

That's his strength though, his passive. Other than that, he has a stun. He quite literally would be a useless champion compared to Galio. Pantheon is a bruiser, and he can 1-1 a diver. That's quite honestly the point.

Jeanne fan clubJul 13, 20171 votes

well its impossible to even lane against him because of his passive, it is literally impossible to win a trade against him as any other top laner. His kit is uninteractive and counterplay revolves around not getting close to him and hoping he doesn't dive you under tower because he can just block the tower shots.

Rand0mH3r0XJul 13, 20171 votes

Have you not tried Gnar into Pantheon? Gnar is generally tankier, can kite Pantheon, has the same amount of CC and does more damage overall. Not to mention Gnar's long range can proc Pantheon's passive.

Jeanne fan clubJul 14, 20173 votes

panth can literally just W onto gnar to win trades, and panth has his passive so that he can farm while not taking too much damage from gnar

I NEED HEALlNGJul 14, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Have you not tried Gnar into Pantheon? Gnar is generally tankier, can kite Pantheon, has the same amount of CC and does more damage overall. Not to mention Gnar's long range can proc Pantheon's passive.

do you not realize how DUMB that argument is? "Oh just pick X champion" no. just fucking no. counterpick should NOT be a way to survive, but to actually try and play against your opponent. If you have to counter pick in order to just SURVIVE, something is HORRIBLY. WRONG.

Also saying "Play X" or "X champion counters him hard" is so fucking dumb. Maybe i don't want to play some random champion, maybe that champion isn't good, maybe that champion isn't FUN. It's a dumb statement.

Warlord DienekesJul 13, 201710 votes

Ah Pantheon. The only reason I even started playing League. I remember when he was in the running for worst champion in the entire game. But I stuck with him. I was overjoyed when they buffed him to competence. And just about every game design and item change has been great. I remember when I had to buy Brutalizer. But never upgrade it and then hobble together items designed for tanks or adc to just be competent. How I had to struggle to rush a 30 minute game or less or I'd be useless.

And at first I was happy. Finally, the Spartan is getting respect. But you're right. Somewhere over the course of the last 6 years he suddenly tipped over from decent pick to overbearing monster. He needs to be reworked. I recognize that. I also live in fear when that happens. That Riot will ignore what I actually like about the champion and instead focus on the new lore nonsense and focus on space magic and other bull crap.

Well, we'll see.

RalanrJul 13, 20172 votes

Yeah. I really hope they keep him more mundane in kit style. Lore wise the possessing spirit doesn't give much actual power beyond the jump.

Warlord DienekesJul 13, 20172 votes

I hope you're right. But Riot hasn't exactly been good about keeping the things I like about the champions they rework. And every talk about Pantheon that comes up mentions their focus on the "god of war" and that he's too "generic Spartan"

HateDaddyJul 13, 20178 votes

This board has a love affair with pantheon that I'll never understand. They rage and QQ about zed galore when there's counterplay at every turn but defend braindead champions like pantheon with counterplay that extends as far as "can I survive his Qs or outrange them?" This board doesn't want gameplay, they want rock/paper/scissors. It's just a reflection of their rank tbh.

Then you get the idiots with the "muh late game" excuses when he keeps a 50% winrate until 35-40 minutes. How many games seriously go past 30 minutes anymore? And even still, that doesn't justify his ridiculous and flawed early game. I'll never understand why this champion is allowed to even be remotely viable.

SqueyJul 13, 20172 votes

On the contrary. When u fight a panth u know exactly what to expect and how to avoid it as well as how to fight or deal with it. Zed does what zed wants and the vast majority of the playerbase esp higher up views zed as way more dangerous, unpredictable and hard to deal with then panth. Panth does need changes but dont add stuff to him that isnt there. You worry more about panth then even the pantheon does.

LyingOnLineJul 13, 20177 votes

But that would mean actually having to address an overpowered champion being overpowered!

9kPluzZJul 13, 20176 votes

Are we ever going to talk about this champion?

When his pick/ban rate becomes 20%+ sure.

agbudarJul 13, 20176 votes

Pantheon atm functions as a counter to fiora who happens to have a 15% pickrate (the highest pickrate btw atm) so its only natural that pantheon is starting to see more use also one should note that Fiora has been in the top 5 pickrates over the entire season 7 and 6 depending on the patch. so seeing pantheon only with a 6% pickrate (10th)tells me that, although he is a counter he still doesnt get picked as often as he should

in short his winrate is inflated because the champs he counters get picked a lot (not just fiora)

LankPantsJul 13, 201713 votes

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Pantheon/Top/

Pantheon has a grand total of 7 losing lanes. 3 of them he loses by less than 0.5%. IE there are 4 champions in the game who are actually lane counters to Pantheon: Heim, Sion, Maokai and Singed. He goes even or wins every other lane in the game.

He counters the majority of champions in the game. He's utterly disgusting in every sense of the word and deserves harsh nerfs.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 13, 20176 votes

correction. 1 year and 9 months.

MortekaiserJul 13, 20176 votes

idk i just ban him

i want to play the game in the early game and not sit under tower for 20 minutes while pantheon destroys my team and everything i loved while i watch

Mael broJul 14, 20175 votes

Dont you love that Flash Q + E Ignite outplay form a level 2 Pantheon?

specter424Jul 14, 20174 votes

What do you mean? It is totally fun and reasonable to be point and click speared to 20% hp each time you show up in lane.

DeadUnbornJul 13, 20173 votes

You are not considering 2 things:

Play Rate Matchups

Pantheon has a 6% play rate, which suggests only people that really know how to play panth are palying him, and thus winning more Pantheon Just happens to be strong against many of the meta top laners right now (fiora, riven, yasuo, darus)

LimrickJul 13, 20172 votes

6% is more playrate than 90% of all champs. It's a big playrate, and it's been that way for over a year now. He isn't "just a counter to the meta tops right now", he's been overpowered throughout several metas.

DeadUnbornJul 13, 20172 votes

sorry mb, I wasn't specific enough. Pantheon has has 6% play rate in diamond+. Given how concentrated the meta is in higher elos, 6% play rate is rather small. a more acuarte data repesentation is to measure plat+ (broader data sample), in which he has 3% play rate and 53% win rate. Incidentally he is the 17th most played top laner as of now; if you count only champion's whose play rate is above 1% (bellow that it becomes questionable if the laner is playable or meta at all) pantheon is about middle of the pack. In my opinion that is not a high play rate above.

Now if you look at the top 15 played champions in top for plat+, these come up:

Rivenm Renek, Fiora, Jax, Darius, Gnar, Yasuo, GP, jarvan, irelia, kled, shen, jayce, trynda, camille.

Notice a trend? most of them are auto attack reliant. which pantheon counters with his passive. Also I can't find pantheons win rate going back for more than 5 patches, so I can't really trust you on "he has been overpowered through several metas"

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Top

ShablagooJul 13, 20173 votes

Pantheon is really oppressive in lane, and a strong lane bully, but he falls of SOOOO hard its not even funny, he has to end the game super fast like real fast if he doesnt he gets outscaled by everything. Thats why everyone doesnt mind.

Succubús GFJul 14, 20173 votes

"Hot fixing singed" *Pantheon: exists *

TakazakiJul 13, 20172 votes

fiora is meta

early game is the meta

early armor pen is meta ( for bullies)

its almost like a bunch of things game togeather to inflate his winrate

HateDaddyJul 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

fiora is meta

early game is the meta

early armor pen is meta ( for bullies)

its almost like a bunch of things game togeather to inflate his winrate

Early armor pen has been trash for the last 2-3 months lmao

TakazakiJul 14, 20171 votes

on what ADC's?

are mid lane AD casters shit with pen build yes, but not top laners who dont have the same stat gates.

I've seen sion effectively use ghost blade of all people, if your winning top lane, you're either galio ( pre dring nerf) or pantheon/ another bruiser rushing GB

SalsonJul 13, 20172 votes

I would prefer if they made his Q a skill shot and kept the numbers.

Jinzo TorranceJul 13, 20172 votes

Outsustain his mana bar

CanastusJul 13, 20172 votes

He's the Ahri of top-lane you could say. Ignored by Riot's balance department since ages while being abused by the playerbase without any nerfs in sight.

VumzucesJul 13, 20172 votes

I dont think hes OP at all. His strength is lane phase but after that he falls off pretty hard..

That being said I think hes in need of a rework, his Q first of all needs to become a skillshot and the rest of his kit needs some changes to except, perhaps, his ult.

DanjengJul 14, 20173 votes

Isn't the "make it a skillshot" sort of a lazy way to rework champions? Nid already has a javelin toss.

What if it still retained the point and click aspect, but after he throws his spear, he loses it. He then replaces his weapon with a knife, dealing less damage. If he wants to use spear again, he must pull it out of the target which it is lodged in. That way he can't just endlessly poke. It requires initiative both on Pantheon's part and his enemy.

nargnargnargJul 14, 20172 votes

Yet no one talks about how easily gankable he is. T League isn't a straight up 1v1 early game.

specter424Jul 14, 20173 votes

Unfortunately its solo queue and if its a 1v1 when its a god awful time like pantheon vs x you won't receive any help.

SparksFFFJul 13, 20171 votes

funny as khaz i just beat the snot out of a pantheon....

HateDaddyJul 13, 201734 votes

{quoted}

funny as khaz i just beat the snot out of a pantheon....

you're unranked and play against bronze players
you were both jungle, not landing against one another. If you laned against pantheon as kha, you'd have gotten rolled.