Are We Done With Gragas Yet?

Smitemuffin·Jun 28, 2015·3 votes·1,013 views

I'm personally getting a little tired of Gragas being head, shoulders, tits and navel above every jungler in the game. Range? Got it. Waveclear? Tons! Retarded levels of damage output? All the way up 'til 30:00 if you build tank, more if you don't. Crowd Control? 3 spells out of 4! Tanky? % reduction, high stats and tons of constant regen! Gap closer? Personal dash AND AoE multi-directional displacement! Fast clear? He's already done. Both sides. And ganked every lane twice.

I mean, really. Is he supposed to be a fighter, a mage, an assassin, or a tank? Because right now he's all four of those without building anything but tank items. He's to the point where the game is basically dictated by "how well can this champ play around Gragas?". It's more oppressive than Lee Sin ever was. At least Lee never had ranged AoE waveclear, so there was actually a point to getting ahead of him.

19 Comments

ErockandrollJun 28, 20155 votes

Lee sin of the Tank meta. That's what he's been called.

I think he's better balanced as a Jungler than he would be a laner. In Lane he either can clear wave and become oppressive as a result, or he can't and does nothing.

I think his Kit works well for a Jungler. I played him Jungle even before Cinderhulk. His Damage Falls way off if you Build him Full tank. And not Building him Tank really doesn't work that well. (still good damage against... A glass cannon) He's by no means an Assassin.

I feel like he's about right after the last nerf. He lost a bunch of his chase potential, The Area of effect on his E has been reduced. Largely, I feel the problem lies more with the other Jungle items not being tuned properly.

MxWhiteKnightJun 28, 20151 votes

His Damage Falls way off if you Build him Full tank.

No it doesn't. His W scales off his his own HP% just like Sej. Right now he's a Lee Sin/Sejuani hibrid and can do both things amazing with little to 0 drawback.

And honestly, his Q should have garbage damage if you don't let it even ferment or let it get to the destination. He already has his E to stun anyway.

EndlessSorcererJun 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No it doesn't. His W scales off his his own HP% just like Sej. Right now he's a Lee Sin/Sejuani hibrid and can do both things amazing with little to 0 drawback.

His W scales off of his target's HP, not his own. Understanding his kit helps when dealing with him.

MxWhiteKnightJun 28, 20152 votes

No Effing wonder back when people went AP top he raped my Nasus and Garen.

Why, Just WHY DOES HE HAVE AN OVERLOADED KIT?? His W alone counters tanks, gives him %dmg reduction AND heals him if his passive is up. JESUS.

SmitemuffinJun 30, 20151 votes

This. This right here is my point exactly. And they ruined the barrel-hop combo when they made him a tank ;~;

atomicwitJun 28, 20152 votes

Oh please, 46% winrate in Plat+ from over 10k games. He's not OP at all and I don't even think he's worth a ban.

SmitemuffinJun 28, 20151 votes

48%, actually. Which is well within the standard deviation of normal. And if you're going by win rate as an indication of strength, let me point out that the current champ with the highest win rate is Malzahar

Just let that sink in for a second

atomicwitJun 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

48%, actually. Which is well within the standard deviation of normal. And if you're going by win rate as an indication of strength, let me point out that the current champ with the highest win rate is

Just let that sink in for a second

It's 46% on champion.gg and based on a very reliable sample. Also, Malzahar is very underrated and probably among the 5 best mid-laners if people weren't stubborn.

SmitemuffinJun 29, 20151 votes

I did a search on lolking filtered by champion win rate. Malzahar came up at 54%. I think Ahri was second at 53.something. I dunno that I'd go so far as to call him top five. Perhaps a top five duelist at a certain stage in the game, but really once priority targets get a QSS to negate his suppress, he just becomes a Zed that can't splitpush in exchange for a little better AoE and waveclear. It's extremely rare for a mage to be able to stand in one spot to deal their damage, and that's what he has to do. His ult is channeled and his W is a ground-targeted AoE. I don't think he's quite up to snuff in the current state of the game, teamfights just move around too much.

That, however, is simply my own opinion of him. If I were to guess at his high overall win rate, I'd say it's because he's so unpopular: most of the only people playing Malzahar are the people who are really dedicated to playing the champion. So naturally, they're going to win more often because they're better at it

atomicwitJun 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I did a search on lolking filtered by champion win rate. Malzahar came up at 54%. I think Ahri was second at 53.something. I dunno that I'd go so far as to call him top five. Perhaps a top five duelist at a certain stage in the game, but really once priority targets get a QSS to negate his suppress, he just becomes a Zed that can't splitpush in exchange for a little better AoE and waveclear. It's extremely rare for a mage to be able to stand in one spot to deal their damage, and that's what he has to do. His ult is channeled and his W is a ground-targeted AoE. I don't think he's quite up to snuff in the current state of the game, teamfights just move around too much.

That, however, is simply my own opinion of him. If I were to guess at his high overall win rate, I'd say it's because he's so unpopular: most of the only people playing Malzahar are the people who are really dedicated to playing the champion. So naturally, they're going to win more often because they're better at it

He's actually even played top sometimes and can split push extremely hard. He shreds tanks and will often trade if ganked.

Juggernaut628Jun 28, 20151 votes

I thankfully haven't seen a Gragas in weeks (maybe 2 in past few months) so I'm a happy camper.

BeatzBoyFTWJun 28, 20151 votes

Diana Fighter/Mage, can played as an Assassin.

Annie Mage/---, can be played as Support.

Blitzcrank Tank/Fighter, can be played as Support.

Elise Mage/Fighter, can be played as Assassin or Tank.

LeeSin Fighter/Assassin, can be played as a Tank

So what's wrong with giving Gragas a role more than just Fighter/Mage?

AbyssphereJun 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fighter/Mage, can played as an Assassin.

Mage/---, can be played as Support.

Tank/Fighter, can be played as Support.

Mage/Fighter, can be played as Assassin or Tank.

Fighter/Assassin, can be played as a Tank

So what's wrong with giving Gragas a role more than just Fighter/Mage?

You realise Lee Sin and Elise got nerfed and complained about continuously because they could do all those things? Diana is only good as an assassin, Blitz is only good as a support and regarding Annie, being able to play in multiple lanes in a problem.

It's being able to be everything at once that's a problem.

SmitemuffinJun 30, 20151 votes

I do definitely like his tank-shredding capability, although my preference is still to default to Brand against high-hp teams. Then I don't have to hold still while I ult

SmitemuffinJun 28, 2015

I'd agree with you were I not jungling a tank and getting 1-shot by a spell rotation from Gragas form 100-0 while even with him. Until 2nd item or ~12th level, he is every bit an assassin

DracidJun 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd agree with you were I not jungling a tank and getting 1-shot by a spell rotation from Gragas form 100-0 while even with him. Until 2nd item or ~12th level, he is every bit an assassin

you're lying about something because even early game, Gragas doesn't do enough damage to 1 shit even a squishy. Sure his damage is high for a tank but you are exaggerating quite a bit. no where near assassin levels

SmitemuffinJun 28, 20151 votes

Full spell rotation base damage 595 + 8% max target hp + 250% AP ratio in the combo + the normal autos in his combo at body slam, after popping a Q, and as a target flies by from his ult (most of those hits are absolutely free because you are disabled when he uses them). About 40 AP from a gragas with 9 points in offense and runes is about typical at 75 AD. Against an Olaf with 965 HP at level 6 (for example:

595 + 77 [965 hp8%] + 100 [40 AP250%] + 225 = 997 Damage. That would be 103% of his target's max hp, and that's on a tank.

Now if you factor in magic resistance and Gragas having Mag Pen reds, that would provide a 22% damage reduction. Which would leave a tank champion with a whopping 87 points of damage. That would still absolutely 1-shot an Evelynn from max to 0 at the same level, for example.

^-^

Meep ManJun 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Full spell rotation base damage 595 + 8% max target hp + 250% AP ratio in the combo + the normal autos in his combo at body slam, after popping a Q, and as a target flies by from his ult (most of those hits are absolutely free because you are disabled when he uses them). About 40 AP from a gragas with 9 points in offense and runes is about typical at 75 AD. Against an Olaf with 965 HP at level 6 (for example:

595 + 77 [965 hp8%] + 100 [40 AP250%] + 225 = 997 Damage. That would be 103% of his target's max hp, and that's on a tank.

Now if you factor in magic resistance and Gragas having Mag Pen reds, that would provide a 22% damage reduction. Which would leave a tank champion with a whopping 87 points of damage. That would still absolutely 1-shot an Evelynn from max to 0 at the same level, for example.

^-^

You are pulling a Lee Sin. You are naming everything he can do, but not looking at other champions. If I described Nautilus to you, it would blow your mind.

SmitemuffinJun 28, 20151 votes

Nautilus doesn't have the damage to 100-0 other champions off a tank build while keeping them in a constant state of disability until he can leave all but the tankiest champions in the game at double digit HP.

Nautilus hasn't had that much damage in a long time. Not since the drop in AP ratio on his riptide. And you have to build full AP to get his huge burst. Gragas does not.

As for "pulling a Lee Sin", there's a reason WHY Lee Sin needed so many repeated nerfs to his offensive and debuffing abilities, such as his loss of attack speed slow on Cripple and the changes to his energy costs. It is also worth note that Lee Sin gets nowhere near as tanky in the late game, gets nowhere near Gragas' levels of sustain in the late game and the utility of their ults is just simply not comparable at that point, as one is single-target melee and the other is ranged AoE