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Again boards meming a base stats nerf

D357R0Y3R··22 votes·8,008 views

You can take all the examples of 5 base movement speed nerf you want, proved to be very effective in the last 8 years (Yasuo Vi best exemples, their win rate+pick rate dropped by a high amount), boards are still going to meme it

Janna going from 54% win rate to 50% win rate with -5 ms and -5 damage on W? they're not going to care

they have troubles understanding that -5 ms means you will have troubles escaping ganks, chasing a melee like Sion to keep trading, means you will have less movement speed gained by %bonus ms (hello item 3078 ) means you will take more time to rotate and farm AND TIME IS FUCKING MONEY IN THIS GAME.

it's literally the same with graves, lolalytics states that his win rate went from 52% to 50% in plat+ with -3 AD, but you still see ** meming -3 AD nerf

But it's ok, just like when anyone got -5 ms LeeSin Ivern Yasuo Janna Vi i'm going to wait and see how complains are going to die down, because that's how base stats nerfs work in this game unlike Dota2/HON community where they know how powerful they are.

edit: ok so janna got other nerfs to tune her down what about vi? can someone explain to me how -0.05 base attack speed and -5 ms made her going from S tier to forgotten (then buffed later=?) =?

53 Comments

Pokemonred20014 votes

I will never forget when they nerfed item 3009 from 60 MS to 55 MS and they went from the best boots in the game to arguably the worst ones overall.

Jaspers4 votes

I think the Rylia's changes ins 6.24 had a big impact on their usefulness/priority.

Pokemonred2004 votes

they definately did, but the nerf I speak of happened in 6.11, which murked their popularity and put their pickrate behind basically every other pair of boots. That Rylai's change might have been what killed them off completely (on not-Jhin) though.

(They did buff both Tabis and AS Boots though, and had buffed Mercs not too long beforehand, so it was a pileon of changes if anything)

GigglesO1 votes

Mordekaiser cries silently unnoticed in the corner

Cosmic Khan1 votes

Except on MissFortune & Jhin

Jaspers12 votes

Because it feels like superficial nerfs. Just to nerf a champ to make it look like you are doing something when in reality you want that champ to stay strong.

-3AD, -5MS, win rates go down. Great but lower win rates does not help what people complain about. They complain because they think the champ is OP and -3AD or -5MS isn't going to change that fact because all that does is affect their win rate.

D357R0Y3R8 votes

{quoted}

Just to nerf a champ to make it look like you are doing something when in reality you want that champ to stay strong.

how do you want that champ to stay strong if the win rate decreases, if the champ wins overall less

Graves nerf? it made him lifesteal less against monsters, clearing less fast=ganking less fast=taking more damage from monsters, this is how base stats nerf works.

the champion is LESS strong they just don't know WHY he's less strong

so they're like "graves can still do a lot of damage he wasn't nerfed" but don't realise that in a 5v5 game if graves can help his team less it's going to massively affect his performances

Jaspers3 votes

Because it doesn't feel like he's less strong. -3 base AD. He got a AD growth buff in 8.6, then 2 base AD nerfs in 8.11 and 8.20. In the end these have leveled themselves out in reality over the season.

In 8.5 at level 18 he'd have have 110 (or so) base AD. Now even with 2 base AD nerfs, he'll have 114 at level 18. Over the season he's still more powerful but just takes him longer to get there now.

Yet all people see is him walking into lane, with a Dark Harvest ready, Stormrazor and criting you for 50% of your HP with 1 auto.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

Just give up. Too many people just abuse the broken shit riot gives you for freelo. Those who want a balanced skill game are in a minority. The following generations don't have or want skill. The game is doomed. If it weren't "name and shame" i would show you a five seasons silver player who is now close to dia just because he spams kai'sa. Doesn't matter how bad you are. Riot gives you the champs that let you ride the climb train for free because that generates money and that's all they care about anymore not a fun and competitive game.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

If you think I'm silver I wonder why you left the Discord I gave to you Don't ever fucking talk about ranks when all of your arguments were **in the first place

Jaspers1 votes

I don't mind discussion or dispute, I don't mind the downvotes (when I went home from work is was upvoted so it shows how divided this community is), I'm just stating why people don't think -3AD is enough because it's not all down to just lower the win rate and everything is okay. Suddenly Graves is "Balanced" but he doesn't feel it, he's doing more damage over the season. "Damage creep."

saltran10 votes

"But why the 16-0-5 Graves still one shots me if he was nerfed?"

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Any 16-0-5 champion will oneshot you (and/or be unkillable in the process).

Heck, a 16-0-5 poro would probably oneshot you.

ZackTheWaffleMan1 votes

#that is the joke

Ragnaveil2 votes

People are upvoting his thing (no clue why), but even a non-fed graves can do it at some point. The issue is his passive on how crit damage is calculated. Instead of being a 150%~ damage crit from Storm (aka how to make a shotgun feel like a shotgun with more burst that crits), it runs on his passive's crit mechanic, meaning he can have more damage from his crits and make the crit mod on storm need no items. If they made the crits work with storms mod going first then his, he'd lose a good chunk of that burst that makes him absurdly broken and hard to shut down. (heck, maybe even remove the crit mod on his passive since Graves mostly goes leth items, BC, Storm, and some other items, and not a crit item to buff Storm's hit power)

EDIT: Also found out one close range auto full procs Black Cleaver. Makes sense why his burst is stupid as well.

Lil Homie busta1 votes

Whooosh

GigglesO1 votes

The guy above you has a point, it isn’t even about winrate. Its about what does it doesn’t feel great to play against. Zoe, Azir and crew might be “balanced” right now but it still feels like shit to play against them.

ModDaenrysTargaryen3 votes

{quoted}

Because it feels like superficial nerfs. Just to nerf a champ to make it look like you are doing something when in reality you want that champ to stay strong.

-3AD, -5MS, win rates go down. Great but lower win rates does not help what people complain about. They complain because they think the champ is OP and -3AD or -5MS isn't going to change that fact because all that does is affect their win rate.

OP(Overpowered) has direct correlation to Winrate. When the Winrate drops so does the power of said champion. People will still complain about said champion because they might just not like the champions kit or something but that does not mean the champion is still in an overpowered state.

Jaspers1 votes

True and many champs aren't OP, heck some people were calling Nami OP because she had a high win rate due to nerfs to other supports and fitting the meta well. Nami has never been OP. 1 buff in 3 years, item nerfs (shielding and healing nerfs earlier in the year) and same kit since 3.16. OP btw.

But I didn't say the champ was OP, I said that people feel/think they are OP. Directly nerfing a champ like Graves Q damage or passive might put him in the 46% category but everyone will be happy.

ShadWooo7 votes

I say f**ck winrates. I don't care Zed's winrate is below 50% when he is fed and dominating in every game. He was rank #1 best performing midlaner for almost whole season and got pushed out by Irelia just recently. Irelia is best performing toplane since late april. And now best performing midlane - before champion.gg didn't have enough data for mid Irelia.

Madsin255 votes

I believe you mean talon?

Zed hasn't been the best midlaner in a very long time.

Noor Sakata1 votes

{quoted}

I believe you mean talon?

Zed hasn't been the best midlaner in a very long time.

Zed isn't really the best , not even now , but he means he dominates every time he is seen in a match He is good , but frustrating to play against

ShadWooo1 votes

This is what I mean and what the "performance" stat at Champion.gg is about.

wildfox9T4 votes

lowering its win rate doesn't mean necessarily fixing what is frustrating about the champion,those kind of nerfs will only make the champion less enjoyable for the playerbase while still being obnoxious to deal with

Spicy Rice2 votes

Not necessarily.

E.G Azir Ryze

saltran1 votes

Nah, champs like Ahri or Janna can have a huge winrate and be balanced or even weak, while champs like Azir or Kalista can be fucking strong with abysmal winrate.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

OP(Overpowered) has direct correlation to Winrate. When the Winrate drops so does the power of said champion. People will still complain about said champion because they might just not like the champions kit or something but that does not mean the champion is still in an overpowered state.

OP has direct correlation to number of challenger/master players champion has in Euw/Korea Jhin had 1 challenger in Euw, 0 in korea which si pathetic, he was tier 5 adc yet got bugfix nerfed then nerfed again (AND NO I DONT PLAY JHIN AT ALL I HAVE HANDS, just hate having this useless shit in team specially after uneeded nerfs).

Kaisa went untouched?????? IT took an LCS for people to start complaining about her? SHE IS FKING OP FOR 5 MONTHS Yet every fking challenger in this game is a Kaisa main, sounds reasonable 50% winrate

Riot is clueless and only LOOKS AT FKING WINRATES. as long as the numbers are around 50% they think they are doing a good job, and that is a good way of convincing comunity tha the game is balanced

Sorry but if Garen, Rammus and other simple counterpick champions are at 50% WINRATE THEN THEY ARE TRASH TIER

How can ziggs be trash D Tier champion since FKING SEASON 4. Yet Riot buffs someone like kassadin over him, champion who was strong prior to buff and offers 0 counterplay was quite opressive before buffs and now its bassicly impossible to handle this abomination.

Irelia got a placebo nerf. I do main irelia and I do agree that placebo nerf is what she needs, she gets quite underserved hate Dont get me wrong I USED to think that she is overloaded

But then I realised She can be ganked extremly easly her teamfight has a massive potentional but that IS Where it ussualy stops at potentional

I would like for her W to be dodge-able. Would be a nice nerf for her in the future

AirKingNeo1 votes

yeah but that also correlates to pickrate, so winrate can be stable if pickrate drops.

Tobykachu9 votes

Janna went to a 50% win rate after they butchered her shield, not after the 5 ms and 5 damage nerf.

The Great Divide4 votes

And vi largely doesn't see play because Camille can do almost anything vi does better

meowwow76 votes

yeah doesn't the -3 ad affect him more due to his passive?

D357R0Y3R6 votes

that's still irrelevant in 1v1 he's going to deal like 5 less damage overall on each AA (and he uses about a maximum of 5 AA in 1v1)

but the reason it nerfed him hard (i think -2% win rate is a hard nerf) is because -5 damage on AA made him spending more time in the jungle, something that will make you lose more as a jungler.

BestPudgeNA6 votes

You speak as if the boards are a singular person that has "insert strawman opinion here" position on everything.

I was one person that said the -3 AD nerf to Graves was a big deal... both times it happened, but i still don't like the nerf cause it doesn't address either of the reasons Graves was and is OP. I was one person that said the MS adjustments to Poppy/Janna were both big deals 5ms is a big deal for a jungler, a skirmisher and a champ like Janna that in certain MU is a poke support in lane

5ms is meaningless for a bruiser that can get 10 Q resets in less then 5 seconds within a teamfight and it doesn't address any of the reasons why Irelia is busted.

The Ecdysiast5 votes

Yeah, I actually had to sit back and try not to start an argument with some teammates on discord who were so uninformed they didn't realize the difference taking Celerity makes. It's 5 MS. And that 5 MS can make or break a chase.

Daddy Ants3 votes

{quoted}

Janna going from 54% win rate to 50% win rate with -5 ms and -5 damage on W? they're not going to care

That happened due to her shield being nerfed along with her items.

That -5 nerf only dropped like 1% off her WR at the time.

ankoanko193 votes

How exactly would this stop Irelia? If this was -5 AD then yes this would be pretty fucken impactful. But its -5ms.. on a champion with huge amounts of mobility, on a champion with a huge AA range too. Hopefully this nerf fixes some sort of placebo effect so people will think she is worse.

SithesisLord2 votes

Because it's barely a nerf.

3 base AD isn't what's wrong with Graves. Him critting you for 2/3 of your HP with DH+Stormrazor interacting with his bullshit pellets gimmick is the problem.

Same thing with Irelia. 5 MS isn't suddenly gonna stop her, because that isn't the problem with her. Her overbuffed minion Q damage is. Her W still, for some idiotic reason not being canceled by hard CC is. Her not being punished for not getting resets on Q is.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Because it's barely a nerf.

3 base AD isn't what's wrong with Graves. Him critting you for 2/3 of your HP with DH+Stormrazor interacting with his bullshit pellets gimmick is the problem.

Same thing with Irelia. 5 MS isn't suddenly gonna stop her, because that isn't the problem with her. Her overbuffed minion Q damage is. Her W still, for some idiotic reason not being canceled by hard CC is. Her not being punished for not getting resets on Q is.

Think on it like this:

-3 AD on Graves effects EVERYTHING ABOUT GRAVES. His burst. His dps. His ability to get fed. Everything about Graves is nerfed with a base stat nerf. Him critting you doesn't matter if he can't buy crit as fast since he can't get fed as fast.

In Irelia's case, her Q doesn't have a massive range, but it resets a lot. She's meant to Q all over to speed around, so if you break that chain or if she's attempting to start it, you can kite her easier. A base MS nerf cuts her ability to chase, flee, and engage large scale fights.

Noor Sakata2 votes

It's surely a meme nerf to Irelia Janna too , Janna buys the Mobility Boots anyway so it doesn't matter , her winrate Dropped because the Enchanter items nerf generally , and the ad items nerf , the shield nerf on her e , and gets out-classed by shits like Pyke/Thresh who got buffs for no reason , she has a bad early , and this is a snowbally meta

Irelia nerf is surely a meme , the issue with Irelia is her Q , not w nor e nor Ult Her Q resets to be exact , this mechanic must be nerfed/removed , with her E Q AA combos , she can bait flashes easily and kill,, , E to stun and get a mark Q and aa , they flashed ? Q again If she misses E she will ult for another mark , she also has mechanics even to win fights against Mobile Picks like Ezreal , hit ult then q then e while he is slowed by ult then q again to bait both his E and Flash Even for picks like Ahri too , since she will burst even before she dashes 3 times Did she fuck up completely ?she will Q minions while she heals and dodge skillshots , even worse than Yasuo

Anyway , to understand more , so you are saying this 5 ms nerf will solve the issue?

naymless1 votes

It's a big Nerf, but it's not what makes her feel so bad to play against.

As someone who plays the hell out of irelia, it's her power to run down any champion in the game and oneshot any squishy assuming she isn't far behind. It is using her mitigation against things like lux r.

DragonShea1 votes

1.47% MS nerf

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Y'know their winrate might go down but that doesn't fix their stupidity of the kit. Cool if graves winrate went down, did the -3AD fix him being a ranged assassin mage bruiser tank? Similar case with irelia tho i asked myself the last time i fought her why she is so fast so that nerf is fine actually.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

Cool if graves winrate went down, did the -3AD fix him being a ranged assassin mage bruiser tank?

who the fuck cares, if he can help less his team he's going to lose this is how the jungle is right now

Lovelle II1 votes

Trundle He recently got his Q base damage reduced by almost half for early-mid game, while his E got a CDR increase of 2 seconds and the slow reduced by 15%-10% for the early-mid game. He basically loses all matchups in the jungle he used to win and he can't gank at all unless you max Pillar first, giving up clear speed and any dueling power he has left, putting him completely at the mercy of his teammates to carry him.

Most games don't reach late game anymore, so he is basically useless until around the 35-40 minute mark. Base damage nerfs are probably the hardest kind a champion can receive, alongside CDR nerfs and increased mana costs. The former hits their dueling power and early game presence, while the latter completely changes the way they play.

Succubús GF1 votes

It's called a meta shift. She was s tier for like one patch LMAO

what about vi? can someone explain to me how -0.05 base attack speed and -5 ms made her going from S tier to forgotten (then buffed later=?) =?

JohnnyNeverSins1 votes

So glad I'm no longer getting 2 shooter by Graves with dusk blade Dark harvest and stormrazor..

Morticianjohn1 votes

5 ms is like 2 % WR from my understanding

Śhunpo1 votes

Dude, 3 AD definitely makes it so that Graves won't oneshot me anymore! Thanks Riot!

MuffledGarbage1 votes

-3 base AD to graves was a joke nerf because his earlygame is too strong due to his kit and his lategame is WAY too strong meanwhile Riot's reason to nerf Graves was because "his lategame too much for what his earlygame is". Meanwhile Graves does 30 less damage in any fight and it ends up not mattering because Graves can just take electrocute and make up for that damage EASILY

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