New Zyra: What changes would you keep, what needs changing, and what needs reverting.

Valhalla Rising··20 votes·1,835 views

TLDR: I miss having full control of more on demand power rather than random spawning gimmicks.

I likely have the unpopular opinion which is obvious from my summoner name.

I would ideally like a full revert. Indeed new Zyra has more plants but it feels like she's on auto pilot, or in perma-training mode with little pop ups saying "cast here"... Dry...

And since there are more plants the damage they deal was decreased but that doesn't matter when she single handedly creates a clown fiesta in bot lane resulting in a very dominating lane phase.

But then she falls off hard late game which was never an issue pre-update. So now we have this auto-pilot cheese kit that's only good for bullying as support. Before I could rely on siegeing with Just Q and 1 seed(if I had 2 charges), with the option of going all in with a full combo. Less plants but more reward for properly positioning them(vs letting the system dictate that).

Further points: -New plants duration reduced in favor of more plants, which means it's usually pointless to try to kill the plants because they die naturally almost as fast, and more will grow right after.. -Q is HELLA awkward shaped now, and deals less damage -More power lost from old skillshot passive to make room for the gimmicks

But anyway, unpopular opinions live up to their name and I doubt Zyra will change much if at all from what it is now.

Just curious how other people feel(please think about all perspectives before you post in a fit of rage, i was Zyra main from season 4 until the mage update)

P.s. If there was anything Id keep it would be slightly less damage on plants for a shorter cooldown on the recharge, limited to 4 plants spawned at once, Don't need the scaling cdr back though. The Passive and Q has to revert for sure though, bring back old circle and damage.

37 Comments

LankPants14 votes

I wouldn't like a full revert, the Zyra rework IMO did two good things, it got rid of her garbage passive and gave her a much needed MS boost.

I think three major things need to change. The RNG on her passive absolutely needs to go, this is one of the worst pieces of lazy design in the game. Her Q should be reverted, it was better pre rework. Her scaling should be shifted more towards AP and away from damage/level. If Riot made changes to these areas I think she'd be fine.

Serika Zero2 votes

I could say the same thing about Original Fiora too. But riot refuses to undo their reworks unless the champion's name is Riven or Lee Sin.

Generally, people that hate champion reworks are people that invested time and liked the original champion. People that like the reworks are: randoms that join the freelo fotm banwagon after the rework

ShadowParker4 votes

Fiora needed the rework, and I feel like they aced it.

Serika Zero2 votes

again: people that played, liked or mained that champions are against the reworks everyone else that joins the bandwagon thinks its great

ShadowParker6 votes

Yeah,I can see your point. But from a game health standpoint that did a good job. She wasn't healthy for the game

Serika Zero3 votes

Ultimate with 60+ cooldown that made her untargetable. A kit focused around auto attacking without building crit rate. So, a large portion of the damage would've been negated by ninja tabi. Snowball type champion with no escapes. vs %max hp true damage, aoe heal, block ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING for 1 second, omnidirectional dashes with low CD if they so hit something

Yes right............ truly helped the game health....... It actually didn't. And as far as spell power. Fizz does more damage with his E, and has less CD and requires no target and its fully controlable. The only reason fizz's E is worse than fiora's original R is due to no life steal.

Meanwhile Khartus also does the same thing, on a similar cooldown and well, I guess its fair, coz its not Fiora and nobody cares that its global.

ModAcademy Kayn7 votes

Yes, only list the strengths and not the weaknesses of each of the kits. That will surely help convince him.

Serika Zero1 votes

Old Fiora weakness: very bad match-ups (good match-ups were vs teemo, jayce, ryze, quinn, vayne, gnar others were skill or just counters) very bad lane safety very bad split pushing (which is important for top laners) very bad wave clear (good wave push) countered by armor

Fizz weakness: very bad match-ups until lv 3 very bad wave clear (good wave push) countered by mr higher mana costs (matters in early levels till you buy lich bane/morello)

There you go.....

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Was talking about Old Fiora and New Fiora.

Serika Zero1 votes

weakness of the old one above. weakness of the new one: needs 2 items melee

there you go

edit, forgot about new one: higher skill cap Then again, I'm probably talking to walls as nice spam of downvotes from people that only hate a champion.

lighning231 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tRFAad7n,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-02T13:56:20.992+0000)

Ultimate with 60+ cooldown that made her untargetable. A kit focused around auto attacking without building crit rate. So, a large portion of the damage would've been negated by ninja tabi. Snowball type champion with no escapes. vs %max hp true damage, aoe heal, block ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING for 1 second, omnidirectional dashes with low CD if they so hit something

Yes right............ truly helped the game health....... It actually didn't. And as far as spell power. Fizz does more damage with his E, and has less CD and requires no target and its fully controlable. The only reason fizz's E is worse than fiora's original R is due to no life steal.

Meanwhile Khartus also does the same thing, on a similar cooldown and well, I guess its fair, coz its not Fiora and nobody cares that its global.

you know full well old fiora wasnt healthy for the game at all> New fiora isnt the pillar of balance by any means but she is leagues better than old fiora who relied on onsehotting you and if she couldn't do that she was completely worthless.

XeroKimo1 votes

Bring season 2 wriggles back with old fiora and she'd be broken as fk...... ah the days that I wondered why no one abused the hell of that item as an ad top laner

30 armor 25 AD 12% LS free ward every 3 min that lasts 3 min 33% chance to deal 500 magic dmg to minions and monsters While being relatively cheap, and being the only jungle item back in the day....

Serika Zero1 votes

Original fiora was more healthy for the game than fizz or khartus are.

Old Fiora wasn't about "one shooting". You are free to watch old footage on youtube of entire games where Fiora top was played. She was only completely worthless in the hands of people that didn't spend time investing into learning her. Yes, a very simple kit required a LOT of practice for one to understand how to use her when she was behind.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

nuke rylais into orbit, and she will be fine.

all of her issues right now come from the fact that she buys 1 item to get aimbot for her abilities. you cant dodge her snare or her ult, when youre constantly passively slowed by her plants. which means she circumvents part of her intended counterplay which is the delay on her skillshots to give you the ability to dodge them.

LankPants1 votes

nuke rylais into orbit, and she will be fine.

No she won't. She's a champion who's at the mercy of her own RNG on seed spawns, it's horrible to play and honestly incredibly lazy design. Her scaling is out of whack, she gets too much scaling for free on levels and almost no scaling from AP. Her Q is one of the clunkiest abilities in the game.

Denying that Zyra has problems is wrong, and you only argue this from the enemy point of view. Most of Zyra's problems become more apparent if you play her.

Hyperiön2 votes

There is nothing wrong with zyra except her passive, change that back to normal, and her kit is perfectly fine.

tempname075475932 votes

i think zyra is in one of the best states she's been in for a while .. i won't reiterate about the useless passive as it's been said quite a few times already, but she bullies extremely hard and hardly falls off late game, a 5 man stranglethorns is destructive, and she can easily burst carries if she tags them with her snare (which is quite easy to do when sieging/being sieged, stand behind a fog of war wall and drop your entire combo, they die.) i'm 90% satisfied with this 'rework,' the 10% being the RNG factor.

Keti2 votes

Miss the old booty

resumed2 votes

i miss when q was more than just a tool to spawn as many plants as possible

Adrian Blackbear1 votes

I'm kind of fed up with champions getting half-assed passives, when others get 2 (or more) passives built into their kit. Zyra's is literally just a tooltip saying she randomly generates seeds around her.

Oleandervine3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Adrian Blackbear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tRFAad7n,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-02T11:04:45.798+0000)

I'm kind of fed up with champions getting half-assed passives, when others get 2 (or more) passives built into their kit. Zyra's is literally just a tooltip saying she randomly generates seeds around her.

That's funny, because its, you know, a passive.

Limmie1 votes

I only wish they'd revert the nerf to her W cooldown. It makes her completely reliant on the random seed spawns and on the enemy wandering into your zone.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I totally agree. New Zyra feels boring and supid while beeing horrible to play against. While new Zyra has more plants, old zyra had more focus on her plants. With old Zyra, every single plant you spant was a clear decision. You didn't spawn them on accident like the new one. For every single plant, you had a clear purpos, you decided to spawn that exact plant at that exact location at that exact point of time for a reason. Now you just mindlessly spam your shit till your garden of doom either crumbles or overhelms the opponent...

Also, takeing out/avoiding plants when playing against her is way less rewarding now, makeing it feel like fighting windmills when going up against her. For every plant you slay, 2new spawn somewhere else....

ShadowParker1 votes

I just miss the old q shape. It was much more satisfying and didn'the feel nearly as bad. That's my only gripe with the rework though. Her passive is way better then her old one.

Hupsis1 votes

The passive is boring and could easily be relocated on her W, the skill that is hardly worth leveling.

A new passive suggestion: When Zyra stands still for 3 seconds, she roots herself on the spot and receives increased casting range. Her first auto attack against a new target while self rooted will root them for 1 second (8 second cooldown per target). Moving removes the self root.

Also new W suggestion: Passive: Zyra spawns a seed near her every 8 seconds Active: Zyra fertilizes ground at target location, making a seed grow there when the passive activates next time. Zyra can fertilize existing seeds to grow the seed for up to 3 times (each growth stage lasts for few seconds). Activating an enhanced seed with her abilities will bloom a larger and more dangerous plant for longer period of time.

Would be cool.

KoKoboto1 votes

yeah

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

"Falls off"

Her effective range with the spitting plants is moronic. Couple that with rylais and liandrys and her innate cc and she turns into a melee destroyer. Any melee without hard engage like malphite wants to commit suicide going against zyra.

Hige1 votes

Well, to be honest you do have a point, her old kit used to be more reliable but reliability is but a balance lever.

You say you've been playing Zyra since season 4, I can't recall when she was released but I can tell you that on release, all she needed was a rod of ages and all hell would break loose, I cheesed that strategy until it was nerfed, mind you... She was a really really powerful mage and in all honesty she is still really powerful with the minor handicap of being forced to position sort of randomly.

Seeds are programmed to follow the patterns of your movements, I've been surprised countless times with a second plant spawn just as I lay down 1 seed, of course at times there's a stray seed that goes from mid lane to the enemy inner turret.. but since it has a really low cooldown it barely even matters.

Seeds are a mechanic for the enemy team to play around as opposed to yours, if the enemy team initiates into a pile of seeds, they'll explode as she casts her full rotation. A Zyra nest is one of the highest damage ones, given of course that the RNG god works with you... A good Zyra player though will kind of predict where their seeds will spawn and will position accordingly, this is now the bread and butter of Zyra.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I personally like Zyra's changes quite a bit. I have only gotten to play her in ARAMs where she likely shines the most, but that being said I do like a lot of what they did. They took her from a 100-0 mage to a zoning mage that has a much more defined niche IMO. While Q and E lost some of their bite, the plants are VERY good at constantly harassing. I am sad that I can no longer set up bush traps, but what I do now is I constantly spawn one plant at a time with Q and it always hits 1-3 times. Perma-upkeep on this 1 plant ensures that Liandry's and Rylai's is always working and that I am always dealing some damage while I build up a backline of seeds. This allows me to put out some serious counter-engage if they ever decide to go in. (Hence the niche of zoning/counter-engage mage.)

I will agree that her laning is a little oppressive sometimes (I main support, I just don't play AS her). Do I really mind? Not really. Her passive is a ton better now (the old one was clunky) and her Q and E feel a lot better to me in terms of activating plants. Sure, the Q turning into a box is kinda weird, but I make it work. If I had any serious complaints, it would be how much the plants do early on; I could see them having a turret style ramp up over 2 shots so that the first one doesn't sting as bad, but if you keep getting hit they wreck you. Aside from that, I think she could benefit a lot from slightly different itemization than what is available. I don't like the current CDR options past Morellonomicon.

Saianna1 votes

After her rework I somehow Can't feel any damage.. It's like I was forcefully shoehorned into supporting my team, cause that's all I could do...

QaznGod1 votes

The new Zyra is just abusing support a lot. Too much free poke with a pretty bs snare. The snare is broadcasted yea but it goes through minions and is some times hard to see. She is just annoying right now idk how strong she really is

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I actually really like New Zyra, mostly because I hated her old passive (the delay was too long and I don't like death passives). While it's true that the new plants do less damage and last less time, that makes it much easier to deal with enemies who quickly kill her plants, as you can replace them more easily (IE, you drop both you plants and morgana casts W under them quickly killing them).

The new passive also makes her strong late game when setting up for objectives as she can cover baron/dragon pit in seeds if the enemy lets her, or cover the area around where her team is sieging a tower. Combined with her ult she has really good counter-engage.

While I liked both the old and new Zyra, I am really happy they replaced the old passive (I'm indifferent about the Q changes, new Q is easier to land for me, but has a longer delay so it's harder to block skillshots with ranged plants). They probably do need to make some sort of change after how popular she was at worlds, but I'm hoping the preseason changes will shake up the meta enough that Riot won't need to nerf her.

Just Blame Jenny1 votes

I've played Zyra before and after the rework. I'm largely fine with the changes, though the new q is rather awkward. I miss the old one.

Seenan1 votes

Her damage needs to be toned down. One of the games at Worlds, Zyra pretty much carried bot lane and the match if they didn't kill her faster.

PopCorn Chick3n1 votes

PLEASE REVERT HER Q BACK TO THE CIRCLE SHAPE.

Pyrophilia1 votes

I positively hate the new q and its cast shape, I don't like the RNG, I don't like how I always feel like I lack burst now, I don't like how I always feel like I don't have enough seeds to combo with, there's all sorts of things I'm not pleased with...

But these all pale in comparison to one factor...

WHY ARE THE W SEEDS NOW PURPLE ON ALL SKINS??? INCLUDING HAUNTED ZYRA?? WHY ARE GRAVESTONES PURPLE???

LOUD NOISES

Honestly though, that just makes me want to go to Riot HQ and slap some people around while shouting 'WHO GREEN-LIGHTED THIS DECISION??'

Like, I get they wanted to be clear which seeds are which since W gives vision and passive seeds don't blah blah, and purple works on classic (and, I suppose, SKT by extension) because both pinkish red (passive seeds) and purple fit the tropical jungle flower colour pallet, BUT WHY just copy it onto the other skins??? Brimstone seeds shouldn't be purple and it doesn't even look good. Like, maybe Wildfire is bearable, but Haunted's purple gravestones just look HORRIBLY done. Like someone took the bucket tool in MS Paint and just clicked the entire seed. Hideous. I literally don't play with the Haunted skin anymore 'cause I can't look at it. And I waited for a year and a half for that skin to come on sale. Asked about it, made a thread, fell on deaf ears.

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