Especially with these new runes, and generally I understand that tank mains wanted them to deal out damage but I'm sorry having 3-4 defensive abilities while building pure tank shouldn't be deleting people left and right
Teridax687 votesAs others have pointed out, this is not an unpopular opinion. Many players have complained about tanks dealing too much damage even before preseason hit, and that problem has only been exacerbated with the new runes. I think right now we're also in a very particular situation where more tanks are opting into damage builds, simply because the Resolve tree doesn't give them the durability they'd want, despite the health they can get at level 1. Combined with reduced defenses overall, and likely increased damage as well, this has led to an environment where everyone deals too much damage, including tanks.
With the class specifically, though, I agree that tanks have a fundamental problem with getting damage tacked onto abilities that are meant to mainly provide crowd control, leading to CC comboes that also happen to inflict a lot of damage. Tanks are not a class meant to inflict any large amount of damage, yet Riot still applies the general principle of having abilities deal damage as a reward for landing them, even if the ability can be landed pretty reliably, and even if the reward is already meant to be crowd control. In addition to this, these abilities often have good bases, simply because otherwise no instance of that damage would be particularly noticeable. In the end, when every tank ability with CC is also a nuke, and every nuke has enough damage to make itself felt, that simply means you have the kit of a fighter with some extra CC, and as a result of this tanks can end up dealing a ton of unavoidable damage at the same time as their lockdown. Because of this, I think it would be better to funnel damage away from tank abilities, even remove it outright in some cases, and instead buff their basic attacks if they need to be able to trade in lane or last hit. That way, their CC combo and their damage output would be kept separate.
Iota Theta4 votesPersonaly opinion: I don’t believe it helps when everyone opts into pure damage items. For example, Why build a Mercurial Scimitar when you could get more damage from Blade of the Ruined King or Bloodthirster? I rarely see Banshee’s Veil built, and even GA has taken a backseat to raw damage/crit/Attack speed for some classes (granted, I am Silver). Meanwhile, tanks mostly deal damage from base values, which aren’t that out of the norm compared to damage building champs, while tanks build 0.
I think I end up looking at the pro scene, and the fact that tanks don’t seem like they do nearly as much as people claim makes me question certain claims. Some people were bothered by a Maokai getting a solo kill on a Gnar, but he only did that cause Gnar got too close To the tower and Maokai could hold him under it long enough. Plus people there tend to actually build appropriately (got a big CC threat? Get a QSS/Mercurial).
Some do deal more, and I still hold the Ornn W damae buff was unnecessary and there were better options. I’d say, in some cases, if nerfs are required, shift Aftershock’s power, less AoE damage but more resists. The point of the rune is for survivability in an engage, so push it more that direction.
Teridax683 votesThat was probably not the best phrasing on my part, but when I say "damage builds", I more specifically mean "damage rune builds". Aside from stuff like AP Maokai, which is a legit build right now, opting into Sorcery or Domination provides a lot of extra damage even to tanks who otherwise build full tank. In fact, the OP also mentioned how tanks tend to go for full tank builds and still deal a lot of damage. Even several Resolve runes right now deal damage, so it's not even all that easy to avoid having some kind of damaging effect when setting up a tank rune page. Even if we're just talking about tanky items, the presence of items like Sunfire Cape, Thornmail, DMP, Titanic Hydra, plus the health or resistance ratios many tanks have on their damage, does mean that tanks often do end up opting into some amount of damage even when they do go for a full tank build.
Iota Theta4 votesMeh, it helped that you specified the Resolve tree in the same sentence, helped me understand your point better. My point was more since everyone, or at least squishies, opt into so much damage with few to no resists, it helps to make tank damage seem higher than usual, especially since I don’t think many tanks had insane base damage buffs.
As for builds like AP Maokai, while build diversity is good, I’ve never been a huge fan of those builds. Those builds should probably be allowed to work in some way, since we want build diversity, so I wouldn’t be opposed to tanks having bases defenses lowered a tad to help balance out that they’re building more damage. Champs have to sacrifice something somewhere if they want to be allowed other builds so they don’t become too strong (certain AP/AD tanks or tank assassins, for example). What helped in cases of the full AP Galio was that he only had his taunt for damage resistance, then gets blown up. If I recall, full AP Maokai was similar, although his heal change helped him a lot at that time.
I never thought DMP and Titanic lead to that much damage, but maybe that’s just my perception. Thornmail should be a sign that healing and ADCs need balanced better if that is seen as necessary, or tanks need tuned slightly more to be more junglers if Fighters are having too many issues since they can’t actually duel.
I still hold that tanks would be better off with %current HP damage and that it would help alleviate a lot of complaints and free up some power to be funneled elsewhere, since their damage would be less. No one complained about Ornn’s damage back when he had that, and those of us that took the time to learn him back then were doing fairly well on him.
So my view overall is...it’s a combination of things compiling to makes tanks deal more damage.
Teridax683 votesI agree that tank damage does come from a combination of factors, though I'm also personally not a big fan of target-agnostic damage like percent health damage, true damage, and so on. Damage like that is specifically designed to devalue tankiness, which then leads to tanks dying too quickly unless they get their defenses buffed, which then creates an environment where players feel like they need target-agnostic damage just to be able to damage tanks. The same thing also happens with resistances and percent pen/reduction items, one of the reasons why Black Cleaver is essential even on assassins.
I also very much agree that one of the reasons tanks feel like they deal too much damage is because there's been a nerf to general defenses, also one of the reasons why mages are becoming much more popular in bot lane again. With that said, tank damage was already perceived as overly high before preseason, so it's more of a preexisting problem getting worse, rather than this brand new problem popping out of nowhere. I agree that champions should make significant tradeoffs if they want to opt into a feature that they're not really supposed to have, such as with Maokai building AP for damage, though I feel right now the fundamental problem still lies in the fact that tanks have baseline damage to begin with. Nerfing their bases and increasing their tank/damage scalings could enable greater differentiation, but the major issue with that is that it forces a greater reliance on items, and thereby makes them more snowbally. With the tools that we have right now, it doesn't really feel like there's any clean way to solve this, which is likely why this problem has persisted for so long.
Iota Theta3 votesI agree that target-agnostic damage can be a problem at a design level, similar to GW, where it’s one side or the other that’s too strong. It’s one of the reasons why Fiora is a problem toplane: either her true damage/%target max HP/healing allows her to dominate, or she can’t do much (see Bramble Vest plus last nerf). There’s really no good option until it’s all rebalanced.
I don’t think it was an instaneous problem, and I apologize if my comments made it seem that way. It’s been a gradually increasing problem, and one aspect that doesn’t help would be the higher bases that especially older tanks have..that they had to have back then. Ornn was released with incredibly low bases and required more work to learn, but was rewarding in his own ways when successful in learning his nuances (although he did need a few changes).
Tanks across the board need changes, but it’d most likely take another, better version of the class rework, VGUs for Some, or each one needs a Rek’sai level update (not sure what it was called before), cause a lot are still old kits, like Cho’gath was/is, Malphite, Amumu, from back when they had higher bases cause I guess things were tuned different, but you also Had things like tanks with 100% ratios for abilities or their ultimate (looking at you, Malphite).
Adjusting bases and scalings would be the best way to allow some build diversity, true. Snowballing to an extent isn’t bad for the game, since if you get a lead you should actually feel and fight as if you do have a lead, but I can understand your nervousness of the snowballing/feast-or-famine nature that it could cause.
Another factor would be reducing overall reliability, and the more reliable tanks, those with kits like Maokai’s, Malphite’s, Leona’s, and Alistar’s, could use less overall damage in exchage for the reliability of their combos, while Those that lose reliability would be able to retain some damage or a higher impact on the utility. Not going into their unique contributions here, but I hope my rambling-esque thought process made some sense.
Teridax683 votesI very much agree with the assessment on target-agnostic damage, and its similarities to GW. Specific counter-mechanics like these tend to distort balance around them and make it very unstable when they're not involved. It's kind of like pressing on the accelerator and the brakes at the same time, where in the end you achieve very much the same result as if you weren't doing it, but in doing so you also increase stress and instability overall. At this point, target-agnostic damage is on almost every new or recently updated champion, and tanks have been balanced around this, so whenever they're tough, they feel unkillable to champions who don't innately have anti-tank mechanics.
I also agree that it's been a gradual process, though I also feel it's a pretty good cautionary tale against feature creep. Over time, Riot gave newer designs features like target-agnostic damage, crowd control, utility, and so on, not because it was core to the champion or their functionality, but because they wanted the champion to be able to contribute even when behind. Because this reasoning can apply to literally any champion, it has been overused to the point where having a slow or a percent health nuke really isn't special anymore, and champions have to be loaded just to be able to compete. Features like target-agnostic damage have become part of an arms race in champion designs, and as a result it has also both constricted design and destabilized balance. It's also part of what's caused fights to become too fast-paced, I feel, as target-agnostic damage means tanks die due to nukes ignoring their durability and bursting them down quicker as a result, rather than, say, DPS or some other kind of persistent pressure whittling them down.
To a large extent, I also agree that I'd prefer the tankiness of tanks to be more active, rather than pushed to base stats. Any kind of power put into base stats means power taken away from abilities, and in many cases that has left certain champions with less agency than they deserve to have. Taken to extremes, I'd much prefer a game where tanky champions had squishy health pools, but also abilities that gave them extra health bars' worth of shields, heals, invulnerability, etc., than one where the durability of tanks were completely passive, which is almost entirely the case for many tanks right now.
On the subject of snowballing, the issue I take with it isn't so much that it accelerates the end of the game (this is good, and to some extent necessary), but that snowballing in League means champions end up out-statting each other pretty hard. I think fights should always be entirely about skill, no matter how far ahead one side is relative to the other, and any kind of stat lead compromises that. It also leads to certain situations where champions cannot contribute or function at all if they're too far behind, or have little to no counterplay when ahead, which forces them to be loaded with additional mechanics as a result.
To me, the most fundamental aspect of any kind of lead in a MOBA is that you get closer to destroying the enemy's base: because of this, I think the most direct way of expressing any kind of lead should be damage to structures. However, League rewards leads primarily by making champions more powerful, and only then do they turn that into an advantage that speeds up the pace of the game by attacking turrets. In the meantime, though, it means that they're also expected to win fights increasingly more often, and it's this aspect of snowballing that tends to ruin matches, both by making them feel unwinnable to the defenders, and unchallenging to those who are ahead. Because these leads don't even directly lead to the destruction of the Nexus, they also have to be accompanied by really heavy-handed systemic changes, such as tremendously snowbally stat leads and massively weak structures, just so that games can increase in pace. It's because of this that I'm apprehensive about adding more snowballing to the game, at least in a way that depends on stats and items.
Iota Theta2 votesAs far as tank durabilty being active, I feel like a mix is required. Too much on the active side and you have a situation like the full AP Galio taking nothing from a Fizz at first during W, but once that ended, he lost over half his health from one or two abilities. Too much passive durability and they can feel feast or famine and too item relient (Leona W or Ornn W vs Maokai for example). So they need some kind of passive tankiness so they don’t just explode outside those windows, but I do agree that active defenses would be a good move and add an extra balancing level. The shield and CD for Ornn’s W make a decent baseline, as it gives him nice durabilty when timing W for the shield right, and it’s low enough that he can use it multiple times in a fight, cause I don’t think a tank would be very fun or useful if they could only use that durability once.
I see your point on snowballing. It’s part of why I love tanks like Ornn, Leona, and even Maokai, honestly (outside Maokai’s damage lately), where, even if my opponent gets a lead, I can still find a way to use my knowledge and skills to help the team when behind, especially as Ornn. It could be something as landing that long range ult at just right time to turn a fight and start to come back. Leona’s skills feel similar at times, as do Maokai’s, and Taric’s, etc.I love the feeling that I can still contribute when I fall behind my opponent because I bring more than just a bundle of stats. The utility and durabilty is what I love about tanks. I become more focused on helping teammates win those fights over objectives as opposed to killing my opponent, which pushes us toward that nexus more and more....at least ideally.
Sorry, got carried away with personal preference. Snowballing has it’s benefits and drawbacks for sure, but I definitely see where you’re coming from. The downside is it will take massive changes to fix that..probably bigger than any preseason so far. I believe they can do it, for the betterment of the game, but it’ll take a lot of work, and probably a lot of thick skin in regards to some of the outrage that would follow.
azrolator2 votesI think ornn was a step in the right direction when his ability strength is pretty flat and just tied to a percent health value so he doesn't feel totally useless against a big guy or op against a squishy. I play ARAM a lot and see most tanks just building damage and counting on the cc for the tank part.
Iota Theta1 votesOrnn was a good step in my opinion, and I honestly wish they didn’t cave and make his W damage the way it is now. He was actually still good with %current target health, just less kill overall kill pressure, and no one had a complaint against him for that. People wanted his W damage more consistent though, but he was strong without the buff and a more proper tank.
I think that’s more because it’s ARAM, but I have seen that. I went tank Malphite on my ARAM team once, and the enemy had an AP Malphite....we ended up winning even though my damage was far less than his, because I could actually soak up more and engage better.
130x1 votes[deleted]
Iota Theta2 votesIt has armor and a rez. That’s pretty strong. In fact, most champs that did build it before it was chaned built it for the rez. They just made it less appealing to tanks by taking the MR and adding AD.
So you have to build defenses to survive? What? At least they work with ADC builds with GA also giving AD and Mercurial Scimtar giving MR, lifesteal, and a cleanse that even beats Malz, Urgot, and WW ults. Fun fact, ADCs didn’t always build 4 crit items. You can build IE, Shiv, and Runaan’s/RFC, get 80% crit, AS, and some AD. then Mercurial Scimitar for more AD, lifesteal, MR, and cleanse, a GA for armor, AD, and the rez, and build shoes as necessary (Berserker, Tabi, Mercury treads, etc). That’s a fairly balanced build, grants some survivability through resists, lifesteal, and item utilities, and keeps the high damage of crits.
The only thing you really lose is the armor pen, but you can’t have everything. If it’s necessary on top of the survivabilty, could always sacrifice something like IE for a Last Whisper item.
Sp33d Zer02 votesGA is a great item. In a world where there are so many lethality users, 30 armor counters a full item and a half of lethality at their level 18. Couple with it Tabi on an ADC and you have enough armor to block 3 full lethality items from them, making it much easier to survive their burst. This is without counting for the revive passive if they DO manage to kill you.
Is GA the "omg best item in the game wtfRito!"? No it is not. But it has a very strong place at doing a job for AD based champions that NO OTHER ITEM in the game does.
Would I build it against a full tank line up? No, but I am confident in my ability as an ADC to kite tanks effectively and heal up with my lifeteal through the raw damage I can put out with my crits and LW item. If I was not as confident, I would swap out my LW item right now as their are not that many tanks running around.
130x1 votes[deleted]
Sp33d Zer02 votesI said it has a niche purpose vs lethality and I would not buy it vs multiple mega tanks, but I'll just assume you didn't actually read my post
Edit:
I looked up your match history Sp33d and noticed you never once, as far as I can see, bought a GA. why don't you buy it? Mainly because it is not worth the investment which means that it sucks.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Sp33d%20Zer0 You mean other than 5 of my last 15 actual games as ADC where it is in my final item build correct? Because it is literally right there. On the page. You don't even have to look deeper into the build path for it.
Also fucking lol http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=130x I can see it on most of your games as a melee adc.
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Sp33d Zer01 votesNocturne has one ability that does magic damage. His q and ult are mitigated by armor. You're actually saying that +40 Mr (which would block roughly 20 damage) would have been better than +40 ad for fighting an ad skirmisher.
Old GA >> New GA Need that MR for the ability skill dmg mitigation.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how damage works in this game. I really hope you aren't building mr vs people like zed and nocturne who's abilities deal physical damage, not magicmagic
That being said I can see the graph for gold for you and noc. You two were within 1k gold of each other until around 29 minutes. You bought GA at 25. Unless nocturne somehow managed to get 10+ kills in 10 minutes (given that the game ended at 35) while losing the game your story does not add up.
So either a) he wasn't low kill/farm because he was matching a fed adc, b) you were already low health without which old GA did not give life steal and the revive passive was worse health for adc, or c) you tried to face tank an assassin with similar gold to you.
Which of those scenarios sounds the most accurate.
Iota Theta2 votesNope crap item. If I wanted more dmg I would buy another dmg item. plenty to choose from. Back when this item was out I could actually lifesteal significant amounts back and would be a force with any AD dmg champ by building third item when ahead. The fact is, the tank destroyer meta might have stemmed off this change if you think about it due to most tank dmg being AP based and the lack of MR on this item. Might as well throw a cloth mail into the infinity edge too and then take off either its crit or dmg. That is the exact same scenario as with what they did with GA. I rarely buy it until end game now because it is just garbage. And the only reason I buy it is not for the shitty no MR defense or the crappy dmg I get with it but for the strategic resoning behind reviving in team fights and being able to kill a few before they notice you are reviving.
I looked up your match history Sp33d and noticed you never once, as far as I can see, bought a GA. why don't you buy it? Mainly because it is not worth the investment which means that it sucks.
Are you..trolling us right now? GA is a crap item?
Of course if you want more AD you build a different item. GA is built primarily for armor and the rez. The entire reason it has AD and not MR is because tanks were buying it all the time for a second life, and Riot wanted it more for ADCs, the AD is to dissuade tanks from buying it.
The “tank destroyer meta” isn’t the meta we’re in. You might be in a different game. And honestly, all you gotta do is build a Mercurial, and you have your MR back.
GA’s second life is the entire purpose of the item, the stats are there to help focus to those who need it and to help ADCs resist some physical damage.
koshkyra6 votesThis isnt unpopular lol
Literally had a malphite 100-0 me (i was lux with shield) at level 7 in like 2.5 seconds yesterday
Like yeah i get that im squishy af as lux and obviously tanks win against burst in every fight but 2.5 seconds at level 7?
Iota Theta2 votesThis isnt unpopular lol
Literally had a malphite 100-0 me (i was lux with shield) at level 7 in like 2.5 seconds yesterday
Like yeah i get that im squishy af as lux and obviously tanks win against burst in every fight but 2.5 seconds at level 7?
Got proof? I don’t buy it.
koshkyra2 votesSo don't buy it.
Iota Theta1 votesSo you don’t have proof. Ok.
AlexJFrost6661 voteswhy you gotta have like zero chill whatsoever. no one screenshots these things and you cant even death recap in practice tool. explain how they would show you proof without going through extreme trouble.
Iota Theta2 votesThe replay system? That feature that allows you to record matches after they happen? It allows you to show events so it’s harder to counter. He can say he was 100-0 as a lux against a level 7 Malphite, but why should I believe it? The burden of proof is on him to show the insane damage Malphite deals. Otherwise, I have no reason to believe him, and this is the internet, where anyone can say anything. Bring or record evidence to back it up.
Iota Theta1 votesI mean, that’s better than a “I say this so it’s true” argument.
With just that though, one can ask if it’s just a tank build. Is it full tank? Is it fluff from all Maokai’s AoE abilities? Did he run full AP? Who was he laning against? A bit more information, but still not enough context.
Even1 voteshttps://gyazo.com/3705744bc452e1d1bffa32a415cccf6a
Even though my team wasn't the best, this still shouldn't be happening.
Iota Theta2 votes[{quoted}](name=ok evan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tOtE5Vf1,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-16T03:15:16.420+0000)
https://gyazo.com/3705744bc452e1d1bffa32a415cccf6a
Even though my team wasn't the best, this still shouldn't be happening.
Ok, that is a lot more reasonable and workable for a discussion. I see a couple things.
Aftershock would’ve contributed a lot, as would sunfire, especially if you were in The middle of fights.
low kills, high assists, which leads to the thought pattern that you either weakened and one of the others finished, or AoE heavy fights, which up the overall damage numbers but doesn’t always mean as much as, say, a Yi’s damage level. That, combined with Q’s low CD, and it can add up.
possible damage boosts from people walking into Maokai E’s. It’s surprising, sometimes, how easily that could increase numbers.
no MR on their side outside of Braum. This leads back to my point with elsewhere in this post, in that carries don’t bother with resists. No Banshee’s...or even Spirit Visage from Vlad, no Mercurial or Maw or any other MR item for yas or WW or Ez. Now, considering you have 3 AD champs on your team, I don’t blame them necessarily, but that does play a factor into you own damage output as a tank dealing magic damage.
And this is me just being me, but...what the heck is that Yas build? Stopping at 60% crit from PD for..a bruiser style of DMP, Frozen Mallet, and Titanic Hydra? Weird.
Succubús GF4 votesThis has happened to me multiple times I feel your pain ;-;
tmh SaltyRose1 votesCough ap malphite is a thing cough cough
Metleon5 votesThis is unpopular? I often play tanks and feel the same way. Aftershock and lack of mr runes means there really isn't such a thing as a tank, just a bunch of high cc bruisers that die slightly more slowly.
Edit:
Which tanks?
Maokai, Rammus, and Leona do stupid amounts of damage right now.
Iota Theta2 votesThis is unpopular? I often play tanks and feel the same way. Aftershock and lack of mr runes means there really isn't such a thing as a tank, just a bunch of high cc bruisers that die slightly more slowly.
Doesn’t help that people forfeit GAs, Zhonya’s, Banshee’s, and Mercurial Scimitars/Maw’s for more damage, so no squishy really has any defenses, so everything deals more damage. Not the tanks’ fault people don’t build any defense then complain when they take damage
Edit:
Maokai, Rammus, and Leona do stupid amounts of damage right now.
Maokai’s only real damage is Q, and it’s opporessive because it’s on a lower CD than a lot of abilities. Purely the base damage though.
Rammus has almost always been strong in AD heavy metas, especially when ADCs are as strong and popular as they are now.
Leona’s damage is all frontloaded in her lockdown combo, and it’s actually lower than most damage values on tanks. It’s mainly Aftershock that deals a lot of damage and it synergizes well with her kit, but requires her to stay close and she can only go in, no escape if she fails the engages. Actually, most of her damage is Aftershock.
But she has also only just become viable after so long. Guess she’s not allowed to have any spotlight time.
Metal Janna1 votes[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tOtE5Vf1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-14T22:18:34.669+0000) But she has also only just become viable after so long. Guess she’s not allowed to have any spotlight time.
Leona was 53% win rate before RR.
130x1 votes[deleted]
Iota Theta2 votesLate game damage beats late game defense, base damage beats base defense, and when no one builds resists, of course the base damage of an abilty is going to hurt.
130x1 votes[deleted]
Iota Theta1 votesDamage should not always wait until late game...unless you’re playing a late game carry (jinx, jax, fiora, twitch).
Base damage beats base defense, that’s why you can damage and kill tanks at level one. Base damage = base AD and base ability damage, btw.
Sp33d Zer01 votesAdc does more damage when they go crit than if a tank goes crit. What's your point?
Even1 votesI don't have a problem with tanks having high base damage, I only start getting annoyed when they have multiple abilitys with armor/mr/hp damage scalings. It frustrates me because they do more damage from building tank items rather than building damage, and often outdamage other champions building full damage. (Ornn, Rammus, Malphite, Etc.)
Iota Theta1 votes[{quoted}](name=ok evan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tOtE5Vf1,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2017-11-16T02:38:26.038+0000)
I don't have a problem with tanks having high base damage, I only start getting annoyed when they have multiple abilitys with armor/mr/hp damage scalings. It frustrates me because they do more damage from building tank items rather than building damage, and often outdamage other champions building full damage. (Ornn, Rammus, Malphite, Etc.)
It tends to be scaling for that to pull them away a bit more from the full AP builds that some people run and give tanks something extra with their defenses, and they’re usually only on one or two abilities. Rammus’s passive, Malphite’s W and E, Ornn’s E, etc. The scalings on them usually aren’t super high.
Rammus has always done that, but he has the issue of relying on autoattacks and making the enemy kill themselves against his W, and only his passive scales with armor at 10%, 15% if W is active, which is only about 30-45 additional damage per auto if we assume 300 armor, if he even hits that.
Malphite was designed to be anti-AD with his armor increase passive and his armor scaling, fortunately it’s only his W and E that has that. Malphite’s W is only 15%, and his E is 40%, which tends to be standard around 120 extra damage if he has 300 armor, and is only a problem when his passive is up, but if he builds pure armor, his passive will suffer from low health. Magic damage and armor shred are pretty effective against him, similar to how AD is recommended for fighting Galio.
Ornn’s E scalings are the only resist scalings, and They are 30% for armor and MR. So about 90 damage if 300 armor and 90 if the same in MR..which it wouldn’t be. Now it applies again if he hits terrain, but still not that much and it’s quite the condition.
Is it a perfect system? Of course not, but those scalings aren’t normally as drastic as some claims make them out to be.
Even1 votesYou made some good points here. But with the addition of Aftershock/Grasp tanks have been doing a little too much for my liking. BTW, Ornn also has hp scalings on his w and on autoattack damage to brittled targets.
Iota Theta1 votesActaully, Ornn’s own HP scaling is for his shield. His W’s and Brittle’s damage is based on target health which..I have my own separate thoughts about (I preferred the %target current on the breath over %target max)
Edit: forgot to address Grasp and Aftershock. I know Grasp actually isn’t the strongest right now, but the buggest point of it is it increases Trading power and adds some extra in-lane sustain, ideally for Juggernauts and other fighters, although it works well on champs like Ornn who has a large risk in running Aftershock in that, if you pull off the ultimate at long range, it procs Aftershock but you won’t be in range to make use of it.
Aftershock might be a tad overtuned, I’m not sure, since most people are running around with Domination and Precision as their primary trees. If the damage on Aftershock is too high, I would rather a shift more than an outright nerf. Less damage (perhaps less health ratio) but increase the resist buff in exchange. That would shift the Keystone back to being focused on helping tanks survie engages like Courage of the Colossus was designed to do.
Ralanr2 votesWhich tanks?
SpecterVonBaren2 votesTrade off. Make it so tanks don't die near instantly under focus fire and we can lower their damage.
AL0001 votesI test tank on the feature game last night... only mundo, amu, mao, malphite, seji and poppy actually did more damage than other tank... but singed did more because of aoe and catch the mouse game. I think singed is not really tank.
not tested but pretty good
balance
not tested
underwhelming
underwhelming
underwhelming
not tested but pretty good
not tested
can't afford
balance
not tested
balance
not tested
overwhelming
underwhelming
can't afford
Those champion is tank according to riot.
Salron1 votesThey deal a lot more damage now because most tanks didn't run magic pen in old runes and everyone lost a lot of MR so the benefitted greatly from this
GripaAviara1 votesHmm, except a few, I don't feel they do honestly. ADC+lifesteal and armor pen and no tank except cho and a few others can smack you down
If they do 0 damage, they will be ignored. This means they become useless