Sometimes, I wonder why Rioters no longer respond to us, but the answer has become more apparent.

Succubús GF·Dec 20, 2018·129 votes·23,424 views

It's really not that they stopped caring (Maybe partially) But it's because boards collectively witch hunt what isnt in their favor.

I've been active on boards for about 2-3 years now. And generally speaking, there's a lot of bias. You get people ignoring statistics because they're biased for their main (I actually recently made a post to see how biased boards would get with someone who is doing really good right now and is stat check) It's ridiculous like it really is no wonder why they stopped giving a fuck about boards when half the time we dont even look at stats.

Also final note, Most of my posts get derailed because "haha egirl" Legit I have had discussions derailed by them "screenshotting my pool of champions" Like oh it mUST be because she's an egirl and she knows nothing!!!!! No it's because none of the male champions entice me to play them past lv 4 aside from teemo and veigar Fuck these boards sometimes honestly.

324 Comments

chipndip1Dec 20, 201854 votes

Hard agree. All people want to do on the boards is garner spite for the balance team, then they wonder why the balance team avoids these guys like the plague.

I see guys like Riot Blaustoise and MapleNectar on Reddit sometimes. I HIGHLY doubt they'll frequent this place, especially since these guys want the balance team fired so much and Maple...is the balance team...

xDelightifyxDec 20, 201812 votes

Sure, thats how kids solve problems. U dont want to hear that you did a shitty job? Just dont listen. You dont want to hear that ppl are unhappy with what u did to them? Just dont listen. If u dont care fpr your Community at all, then act like riots balancing team. There is no other explaination for a - 5ms nerf, than trolling the players. I dont like it either if someone offers critic for my work, but hell how childish is it to just close your eyes for the Problems entirely. If i cant see it, the Problem isnt there. Thats the balancing teams polocy right now. How would it be to actually BALANCE things , or maybe listen to the Communitys concerns instead?

There are reasons for LoL losing players.

Raven RedeemedDec 20, 201815 votes

Listening and discussing are two different things. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a decently sized game dev that does more than Riot at either. Meddler’s Quick Gameplay Thoughts are posted multiple times a week. That’s just one example of many.

The community is not equipped to criticize balance. The majority of people are low elo, have no balance expirience, would like things to “balanced” around what they like/dislike, do not have the foresight/skill to see how changes will affect the game, and are often blinded by nostalgia. An engineer does not discuss bridge designs with pedestrians. The community is not the balance team’s peers.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20186 votes

Riot didn't discuss or listen at all. After 3 years of being ignored, you really think people here should try being nice?

Raven RedeemedDec 21, 20184 votes

What? Did you read what I wrote? I argued that they do listen and discuss. I gave the example of Meddler's Quick Gameplay Thoughts which show up three times a week in which he often discusses hot topics and will respond to several comments. There's also a red posting almost every day in the boards. The surveys they send out. Reav3 even took my advice to update Zyra's textures during the mage update and Meddler and his team buffed up the Guardian items after responding to my comment which noted how they were noob traps.

I also argued that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) implement changes based on popularity since the majority of people don't have the skills, experience, and unbiased frame of mind required to balance a game with almost 150 champions.

Last, I never suggested people should try being nice. But since you brought it up, yes I do think people should be more cordial. It is standard in most professions for a reason. If you insult people they tend to assume you don't have a good point since are not acting like you have one, and they will be less inclined to listen (as the OP of the post mentioned) due to the unpleasantness of your presence.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 201810 votes

Except Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts don't actually address major issues and Meddler avoids questions that ask about major issues.

NevrankroatonDec 21, 20185 votes

They adress snowballing and laning phase, they worked on tuning ADC down and bringing more diversity bot, they worked on calming the waveclear of mage giving too much priority early, they are working on smoothing the way ADC item make them scale/feel so it is smoother. They adressed people complaining about jungler being too passive and rewarded for only doing their camp and then ganking by doing faster respawn and having the crab contest. They adressed vision starving and overcontrol of vision from proplay.

I am not telling you that it is perfect. But they do it. They just don't adress some pathetic bitching or the usual "X champion" main that come to tell you their champion is the fairest and lowest of them all and how you should buff it or revert it when it was plain boring AND shitty to play against or as even.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20186 votes

they worked on snowballing and laning phase... by making snowballing harder? by not ever fixing champions who auto win laning phase?

they tunned adcs down... by brutally murdering them? and then never take any input to fix them? and nerf items for other champions because of kai'sa?

they worked on calming down mage waveclear... by never nerfing Lost Chapter?

they are working on making ADC scaling smoother... by making zeal items cost a ton of gold?

No one complained about Jungle being passive. Powerfarm jungling hasn't been viable since Season fucking 4. People complained about jungler's influence on the map. So Riot made junglers have MORE INFLUENCE ON THE MAP!

They addressed vision starving... by nerfing yellow trinket? Instead of red?

I am not telling you that it is perfect. But they do it.

Poorly, so they should recuse themselves and get someone does it better. Better yet, someone who communicates with people.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20188 votes

All people want to do on the boards is garner spite for the balance team, then they wonder why the balance team avoids these guys like the plague.

That's a self contradicting statement. People don't complain about the balance team unless they have a balance issue.

People wouldn't hate the balance team if they balanced the game in a timely manner. They don't, so people complain.

chipndip1Dec 21, 201810 votes

{quoted}

That's a self contradicting statement. People don't complain about the balance team unless they have a balance issue.

People wouldn't hate the balance team if they balanced the game in a timely manner. They don't, so people complain.

Hello? EVERY FUCKING GAME HAS BALANCE ISSUES.

Smash Melee has a very clear cut top tier over the entire roster. Did anyone call for Sakurai to be outright fired over it? Literally amazes me how people don't understand how ridiculous this shit is.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20184 votes

Is Smash Melee a game that 1) has balance patches and 2) has people PAID to balance it???

That comparison is the most absurd thing I've seen today next to someone's speech being about Fortnite today in my speech class.

chipndip1Dec 21, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Is Smash Melee a game that 1) has balance patches and 2) has people PAID to balance it???

That comparison is the most absurd thing I've seen today next to someone's speech being about Fortnite today in my speech class.

Then switch Melee with Smash 4's Bayonetta.

Sakurai's still hired by Nintendo, buddy.

Like, Idk what you think this is. It's not hard to just pull a top tier for an example.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20182 votes

Smash 4 stopped being balanced updated. Bayo should have been fixed.

But it's not like there have been 10 Bayo situations in 3 years or anything.

chipndip1Dec 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Smash 4 stopped being balanced updated. Bayo should have been fixed.

But it's not like there have been 10 Bayo situations in 3 years or anything.

Not many games stay on one version for that long, Neo. Even then, you don't call for mass firings like a spoiled child over a character being strong in a game that always changes.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20184 votes

How is it acting like a spoiled child to request the removal people from their position because they are reasonably proven to be poor at their job for multiple years?

Do you know how elections work?

ModUlanopoDec 22, 20185 votes

Just a friendly reminder that calling for the firing of Rioters - either individually or as a group - is viewed as harassment and moderated as such.

AirKingNeoDec 22, 20184 votes

Nope. That's incorrect and I even have a source to prove otherwise.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WfEEZ3Br-moderation-of-golden-rule-specifically-regarding-rioters?comment=000400010000

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WfEEZ3Br,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2017-10-27T05:46:46.957+0000)

What if someone literally thinks the balance team should lose their jobs and provides support with examples of balancing issues?

{quoted}

If you can respectfully portray it, then so be it. Use your best judgment to ensure that it doesn’t overstep into disrespect, and I’d say try to be constructive.

Any removal of a post that is analytic and critical, rather than ranty and hateful, that respectfully comes to the conclusion that a Rioter(s) are unfitting of their current position (fired or moved) is rightful criticism that is logically and morally unjust to remove.

It is, in fact, the type of content we should promote. We should have people explain grievances out rather than make spam posts. This is the idea that Gameplay+ wanted to promote but ultimately failed because no one is approving posts.

(Also note that I did not say fire, I said 'to remove'. They can still work in another part of Riot. The only time I would ask for someone to be fired is if they were detrimental to the company no matter their position, such as someone with radical and outlandish ideas or cause severely bad publicity.)

Hayaishi2Dec 20, 201828 votes

The boards call them out on their BS while Reddit whiteknights them.

Moody PDec 20, 201858 votes

boards asks for people to get fired if yasuo gets a .5 ad buff

Hayaishi2Dec 20, 201828 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZAclduk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-20T17:46:12.559+0000)

boards asks for people to get fired if yasuo gets a .5 ad buff

Well balance team is usually trolling. Irelia -5 MS comes to mind.

AugustHeatHazeDec 20, 20185 votes

they don't deserve to get fired for that, they don't deserve to get fired for any balance related reason honestly.

Z3SleeperDec 20, 201812 votes

They deserve to get called out on their shit though.

The "fire this guy" posts are pretty "r word" (hehexd pc censorship) tho.

AugustHeatHazeDec 20, 20185 votes

constructive criticism is helpful, even if you are way off base its fine because if you are respectful about it, then it can be discussed, so I wish there was more respectful discussion instead of calling for firing, I don't think its going to happen, but I can dream.

Z3SleeperDec 20, 20183 votes

Yeah probably not. It makes a good clickbait title.

Sometimes there's actual content. Still doesn't excuse the title I agree.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20186 votes

Really? I think letting Irelia stay broken for 6 months straight is a fire-able offense. It displays incompetence and untimeliness in their work ethic.

AugustHeatHazeDec 21, 20189 votes

if someone was fired everytime the community whines about a champion riot would cease to exist

no one should be fired because you don't like the state of irelia, thats so messed up.

NotAPurpleFrogDec 20, 201831 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZAclduk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-12-20T17:46:12.559+0000)

boards asks for people to get fired if yasuo gets a .5 ad buff

going from 150% to 250% damage on ultimate isnt a .5 ad buff lul

3TWarriorDec 21, 20184 votes

~~don't forget that that's TOTAL AD and not bonus AD~~

edit: may be incorrect on this but I can't find the posts, so I will strikethrough

The steam lifeDec 21, 20187 votes

{quoted}

don't forget that that's TOTAL AD and not bonus AD

Its bonus ad my man. I understand your Yasuo hate but that's just straight up untrue

The steam lifeDec 21, 20183 votes

{quoted}

going from 150% to 250% damage on ultimate isnt a .5 ad buff lul

yeah but he also had a 44% wr it was somewhat overkill but like he was bad.

Akali is SO HOTDec 20, 201825 votes

Boards: Calls for the balance team to be fired or calls for delusional balance changes

Rioters: Don't want to respond to asshats

Boards: https://i.imgur.com/BK4uMIL.jpg[/img]

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 201823 votes

My personal opinion is that this is indeed the case.

The boards are often great. There's sometimes really insightful stuff here, or great discussions. A lot of times, however, there's anger and frustration than ends up channeled unproductively and makes the environment here much worse. Some members of the community like to jump on Riot and assume ill-intent or incompetence at every opportunity instead of simply asking questions and accepting that, sometimes, their perspectives may not be the end-all objective truth of balance or gameplay, or that they may have a different vision of what League should be -- and that having a different vision is okay, not a reason or excuse to insult the designers.

It's this sort of behavior that makes it difficult to have conversations, and it's this sort of behavior that would make me hesitant to share my thoughts on design or reasons -- when even an explanation of "here's what our data shows, and why we made this change, which we know won't please everyone" gets you attacked, you can't really do anything more other than say "yeah, it sucks, we suck, and we'll roll it back," which isn't necessarily true and effectively means just folding before the loudest voices that complain.

IfnethDec 20, 20185 votes

Then why not just ban this stuff? Every day I check “Hot,” it’s just more salt about the balance team or Riot. It drives me away from the Boards. Lock the threads, ban the accounts, etc.

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 201818 votes

{quoted}Then why not just ban this stuff? Every day I check “Hot,” it’s just more salt about the balance team or Riot. It drives me away from the Boards. Lock the threads, ban the accounts, etc.

We've been talking about ways to handle this sort of thing. It's fairly complicated though, because often players do need to vent frustration, and I'm not sure the solution is just "ban everyone who is frustrated and expresses it in a slightly unhelpful way."

GreenKnightDec 20, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZAclduk,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-12-20T18:41:11.688+0000)

We've been talking about ways to handle this sort of thing. It's fairly complicated though, because often players do need to vent frustration, and I'm not sure the solution is just "ban everyone who is frustrated and expresses it in a slightly unhelpful way."

I have said that a few times already, it's obvious that Reddit style of forum doesn't work for Boards. I know it's something you guys have no power over, but it's really sad to see so many good posts wasted because of how voting system works.

xDelightifyxDec 20, 20187 votes

Can you explain from what point of view Akali or Irelia are/were balanced? Cause u just said smth like our changes are fine, the players are just to stupid to get it. Beeing friendly, or a Rioter doesnt change the message of your comment though... I think more often its the other way around, because you just balance for the lcs. The balancing team just seems to have no clue about the problems outside of proplay. That does of course lead to frustration, what u can clearly see in the Forums. But have u ever came up with the idea, to acutally LISTEN to this ppl for one time? And maybe taking their concerns seriously? I mean sure its frustrating, if u mention the same problem over and over and over and over and over again, and noone does smth about it, but calls you stupid ontop.

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 20187 votes

{quoted}Can you explain from what point of view Akali or Irelia are/were balanced? Cause u just said smth like our changes are fine, the players are just to stupid to get it. Beeing friendly, or a Rioter doesnt change the message of your comment though...

So, a few misinterpretations here.

I'm not a Rioter -- just a volunteer moderator.
I didn't say all changes are good, or all changes are balanced, or all changes are even the right way to change something (balance aside). I said that often ill intent or incompetence is assumed, or players have differing views on what should be done. That doesn't imply the changes are right or wrong: merely that the responses to the changes aren't as rationale and conversational as they should be if we want Riot engagement here.

I think more often its the other way around, because you just balance for the lcs. The balancing team just seems to have no clue about the problems outside of proplay. That does of course lead to frustration, what u can clearly see in the Forums. But have u ever came up with the idea, to acutally LISTEN to this ppl for one time? And maybe taking their concerns seriously?

This is sort of what I mean. When your default argument is "Riot only cares about the LCS and is oblivious to balance everywhere else, and refuses to listen to people," there's not a lot of good conversation that can come from that. While I'm not a Rioter myself, I have interviewed with the design team a few times, and everyone I met there was really concerned about the average player. Hell, they're all League players themselves, and none of them are LCS players. They're not perfect by any means, but assuming they're not listening and assuming they're not putting time into try to tackle the rather difficult task of balancing a game this complex across as many skill levels as this game has is inaccurate, and when your discussion points immediately attempt to rake them over the coals for not trying to understand and not taking feedback into their decisions you're not only being inaccurate, but also making the environment here uninviting.

xDelightifyxDec 20, 20182 votes

This is sort of what I mean. When your default argument is "Riot only cares about the LCS and is oblivious to balance everywhere else, and refuses to listen to people," there's not a lot of good conversation that can come from that. While I'm not a Rioter myself, I have interviewed with the design team a few times, and everyone I met there was really concerned about the average player. Hell, they're all League players themselves, and none of them are LCS players. They're not perfect by any means, but assuming they're not listening and assuming they're not putting time into try to tackle the rather difficult task of balancing a game this complex across as many skill levels as this game has is inaccurate, and when your discussion points immediately attempt to rake them over the coals for not trying to understand and not taking feedback into their decisions you're not only being inaccurate, but also making the environment here uninviting.

I rlly see your point of view and i rlly like to share it, but akalis shroud or the - 5ms nerf on irelia are just showing that they DO NOT listen. Otherwise they would have done smth about it. Same for Duskblade what ruled the game for half of a year before getting touched, while still remaining to strong. Or do you remember Tank or Ardent meta? When did they do smth about it? After the lcs finished, akawhen they couldnt get more money out of it. That sort of behaviour/changes of course can lead to the interpretation, that Riot isnt caring, except for money. Sure they are not perfect, like noone is and noone asks them to be. Ppl ask for a fair, fun game to play, but with all the dmg, mobility and with every new Champ beeing more ridiculously overpowered as the one before it wont get better. I agree in the point that we should try to establish higher communucation standarts, but we need the balancing team to be part of that communucation, otherwise we wont archive anything. The patchnotes are a joke in explaing why smth needed to be changed, what again leads to massive Frustration in the Community, same as the s8 meta did. Just try to make the game less tilting overall (oneshots, overloaded kits, unbalance) and the ppl will bring less hatred back to you. I remember Season 2 when everyone was happy if he could play at all. In my opinion the changes riot made, did make the problem with the Forum/tilt/hatred even bigger and i think you can only solve it, if u make your decisions more transparent or give us some kind of participation, thats taken seriously. [slayer-jinx-catface]

ModThe DjinnDec 20, 20186 votes

{quoted}I rlly see your point of view and i rlly like to share it, but akalis shroud or the - 5ms nerf on irelia are just showing that they DO NOT listen.

Not really. It shows that they acknowledge there are some power issues, but may think those issues are smaller or need to be addressed differently than players on these boards.

Remember that the boards are a fraction of a fraction of the total playerbase, and players who are frustrated tend -- in general -- to be more outspoken than players that are happy. Riot does take feedback into account, but they don't get it JUST from social media or their board or Reddit -- they do player surveys, bring people on-sight, and any number of other things that aren't as visible to us here on the boards. Small changes also have big effects sometimes, and, further, Riot is usually several patches ahead in testing, so they may know of an upcoming item or champion change that they think will help resolve the problem of a gven character.

As things like the recent adjustments to Akali's shroud show, they do listen when we say "this is REALLY obnoxious." They just don't always make the specific change some people would like. In this case it seems they're trying to test if there's a healthy way to preserve her unique aspects, which I think is a good approach to taken, even if it ultimately doesn't work out.

Ppl ask for a fair, fun game to play, but with all the dmg, mobility and with every new Champ beeing more ridiculously overpowered as the one before it wont get better.

See, here's the thing: that's all pretty subjective. Personally, I think that most (not all) of the new champions are extremely well designed and that, while some damage may be a bit high, I'm having more fun with League now than I have since probably Season 1.

I agree in the point that we should try to establish higher communucation standarts, but we need the balancing team to be part of that communucation, otherwise we wont archive anything.

The way to do that is to start by making an environment where we don't call their current approach uncaring, stupid, a joke, etc. The simple fact is that they don't owe us answers, and the game has evolved beyond what it was in season 2 to a place where player skill is higher, and thus new champion designs rise or fall more on that skill (and are more complicated as a result -- something often mistaken for power, and something sometimes harder to balance nicely). We can say "they need to participate," but when the problem is that we've created an environment that isn't welcoming and is antagonistic towards any change, explanation, or interaction that doesn't fit the community's specific desires/expectations, I think it's a bit foolish to say they need to meet us half way. At this point we need to show that we CAN be polite, reasonable, and willing to take no for an answer at times, and THEN they might reconsider using the boards more for communication and discussion.

BlåbæretDec 20, 201814 votes

I love the fact that you decided to mention your gender when no one cares and no one asked for it. Can't take this thread seriously.

Cats Are FoodDec 21, 20187 votes

I love the fact that her valid statement (it's been posted on 5 threads that I've seen this week), becomes null to you because of her Gender.

Packun FlowerDec 21, 20187 votes

He's right though. she made a topic and then derailed it herself by bringing up her gender? wtf?

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20187 votes

Her topic was grievances with the boards.

She listed a grievance.

3TWarriorDec 21, 20185 votes

it's a personal experience and a societal issue (usually by very young teens...), it's irrelevent and could even bring up political concerns

the post itself had nothing to do with her being a girl gamer and as someone else pointed out, if she has criticism of opinions about it (when she confirms that she is a girl gamer instead of using the anonymity of the inter-net to her advantage), she would be better suited to post said discussion in player behavior

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20186 votes

how the fuck is it politics to talk about the fact there is a major problem in gamer culture against women, calling them "egirls"?

BlåbæretDec 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

how the fuck is it politics to talk about the fact there is a major problem in gamer culture against women, calling them "egirls"?

Well, when you decide to broadcast your gender for no reason other that an irrational need for attention, you bet people will respond to it unfavorably.

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20186 votes

They didn't broadcast their gender for attention.

3TWarriorDec 21, 20183 votes

#Politics is the process of making decisions that apply to members of a group.

With her posting frustrations about something unrelated to the game and currently an issue of debate (how men and women in our cultures interact together and if there are any unfair advantages), it has the potential to easily spiral downward into circular arguments defending a person's position on the matter, hence, politics

just looking at this thread is an easy example of this matter as people are already derailing conversations to engage in potentially weighted scenarios involving our personal views. You and I and the others for example

#If you want an example of it going the opposite way, it used to be said that only boys played videogames. The "e-girl" as it might be called is also a point of social frustration because it is often used just to inject an external argument or objective into the game

Women are just as capable of gamers as men are, but it causes issues when someone randomly tosses out the potential fact that they "may" be a girl into the game, often in a troll-like manner just to distract attention away from the activity at hand: the game.

That is the "e-girl," and said poster introduced the topic in an unfinished manner, creating controversy

AirKingNeoDec 21, 20182 votes

Politics is the process of making decisions that apply to members of a group.

Basically discussing the balance of the game is politics too.

With her posting frustrations about something unrelated to the game

It's related to the people who play the game.

That is the "e-girl," and said poster introduced the topic in an unfinished manner, creating controversy

No. The e-girl stereotype is that they're boosted by men and only play support. It has nothing to do with the distraction of someone possibly being "female".