Caitlyn's Traps are really frustrating for her opponents

HalcyonDweller·May 22, 2017·19 votes·2,696 views

Can we at least make her traps less oppressive? Maybe less effective under enemy towers, or maybe give them a longer arming time so she cannot chain them with short cc from her support?

42 Comments

k wìxMay 22, 20178 votes

1.) First and foremost: traps need to show under turrets. That is bullshit, and there is absolutely no clarity here.

2.) Secondly; Traps need a small nerf in general - Caitlyn is a bit busted currently. **They need ONE of the following changes: **

Take 25% longer to arm.
Minions spring traps
Caitlyns free auto attack against a trapped target needs to deal about 20% less damage.

It's only a matter of time, I think.

69944531DEL1May 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tOYIFM2k,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-22T21:53:43.797+0000)

1.) First and foremost: traps need to show under turrets. That is bullshit, and there is absolutely no clarity here.

2.) Secondly; Traps need a small nerf in general - Caitlyn is a bit busted currently. **They need ONE of the following changes: **

Take 25% longer to arm.

Minions spring traps

Caitlyns free auto attack against a trapped target needs to deal about 20% less damage.

It's only a matter of time, I think.

yea a few weeks after pulsefire cait is out so rito can make $$$

k wìxMay 23, 20171 votes

I think Riot will sell skins because its art department is awesome at what they do. Very few people are buying skins because of the relative balance of a champion.

SnakDatSmilesBakMay 23, 20171 votes

That first point is literally all I want to be changed right now. Then we'll see whether cait is balanced or not once she's less frustrating to fight.

k wìxMay 23, 20171 votes

Looks like she's getting nerfed either way. They seem to be targeting her interaction with Hurricane, which is interesting.

AimléssMay 23, 20171 votes

It makes no sense how Riot nerfs champions now a days. Her traps are frustrating to play against, she is too dominate in lane, so what do they do? They nerf her mid and late game. A mid game that is pretty bad without kills in lane, and a late game that is good, but in no way OP, so why the fuck are they nerfing that over her disgusting early game???

If they just reworked her traps into something less oppressive no one would even complain about her anymore, but they're probably gonna just nerf this, and keep her just as oppressive in lane, but will use this to get people to play her less till we forget about her, then she'll pop back up again in a few months.

k wìxMay 24, 20171 votes

I'm not to sure I agree with your first statement, Riot is generally pretty clear about why they nerf champions. Infact, as far as competitive games go, Riot is one of the best about being clear with balance changes - it's one of the reasons I like league so much.

They obviously realize the traps are a strong part of the kit, they probably want to keep that as part of her identity - which is absolutely fine in my book. If you want the traps to be her identity... the only nerf solution is to go after something else - hitting her synergy with Hurricane is an excellent place to start, as it was arguably the best item in the game for her. She's very strong and very oppressive, but she definitely doesn't need to be gutted by any respect.

AlluziionAug 1, 20171 votes

Not true at all.Riot sucks at balancing champions for competitive scene

MarshbouyMay 22, 20172 votes

Sweet I can check the daily cait trap QQ thread off my list.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20171 votes

Joke's on you there have already been threads about Caitlyn today.

Also this does nothing to invalidate the point that the traps are oppressive and have some unintended use cases that abuse their power.

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20171 votes

Theyre used for sieging, zone control, kiting, and the occasional catching people facechecking. What else does she use them for?

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20171 votes

That's what they're supposed to be used for.

On top of that they are used to chain cc, and to 100% zone people away from their turrets. That's the opposite of interaction, people have no means to counterplay in either of those situations.

In the first situation, normally you would be able to juke, but that is taken away by the chain cc. The traps are longer duration than most cc so it's unfair to not allow opponents a chance to juke it.

In the second situation, you can't even try to stay nearby to protect your turret, because if you do you take such high damage from the free harass that you get screwed.

I think it would be more fair to allow opponents to disarm the traps by channeling, similar to stepping on Rek-Sai tunnels (except obviously it would have to work like teemo traps and still trigger if stepped on), so the player has to stand still. This would still give caitlyn some of her sieging power because she has time to hit the the tower or even the enemy while they are channeling the disarm, but at least it wouldn't be such high damage harass like free headshots are.

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20171 votes

No the sieging power comes from her being able to make you make a choice. Step on them and take damage, or dont. Usually you can get your tank to step on 1 or 2 and you have a clear path.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20172 votes

I get that, but forcing players to make lose-lose choices is kind of crappy.

OK I know that tanks can help remove traps, but what should I do when I don't have a tank near the bottom half of the map?

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20171 votes

Couple things you can do. Wait for Cait to leave and step on them, Get a spell shield, use Sivir for free mana, etc.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20171 votes

Ah I see, thanks :) Also thanks for the awesome list of tips in the other comment thread under this post!

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20171 votes

You got it!

Daddy AntsMay 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Couple things you can do. Wait for Cait to leave and step on them, Get a spell shield, use Sivir for free mana, etc.

Ok so lemme clear something up about spell shields.

Sivir and Nocturne's Shields do NOT block the headshot effect.

item 3814 's Spell Shield prevents the root and Caitlyn does NOT get a Headshot proc from it.

I found this out when we had Lethality meta when I was playing Varus into Caitlyn.

MarshbouyMay 22, 20171 votes

I only realized that after i made that comment.

I'm not going to waste my time debating you on game balance because you clearly already decided your point of view and i don't want to waste my time.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20172 votes

I don't like it when people act superior and look down their noses on others.

If you do that, then we're gonna have a problem.

If you don't do that then I'm 100% open to discuss balance.

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20172 votes

Zoning will always feel oppressive and frustrating. Frustration comes from not being able to control a situation, which is what Cait does best. Caitlyn takes control of the lane and says where you cant go. And placing traps under turret/sieging is what Cait does best. Cait is basically designed around sieging objectives. I mean if you look at her kit its pretty evident shes got all the tools to siege. You can also go summoner 1 or a item 3140 to completely stop the chain cc.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20174 votes

Precisely, the way she zones is so non-interactive though. Against most champions, getting zoned means staying under tower and playing safe, missing some cs (more if you're bad) and slowly falling behind. Honestly I can handle that.

But with Caitlyn, it's not like that. You can't even stay to try to protect your tower because she will trap everywhere under your turret, turning it into a minefield you can't walk in without taking free harass from her.

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20172 votes

Push the wave back as far as you can or ask for a gank. because if shes close enough to trap headshot you under turret, shes close enough for a gank.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20176 votes

Some marksmen don't have access to enough waveclear to do that.

Sometimes the jungler can't or won't help. And sometimes that's for completely valid reasons. As a jungle main lemme tell you, it's goddamn frustrating when I can't help a lane (for reasons such as being busy doing something else important on the map) and they are losing and starting to take it out on me.

The game is supposed to be skill based. You ought to be able to at least go even in lane without the jungler's help. It isn't the jungler's job to save teammates and win their lanes for them.

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20171 votes

No its actually all about game knowledge. Thats why you can see such great players playing terrible champions but still do well. They know how the game works and what needs to happen for them to win in a situation. And you can go even in lane. Just get her to use her traps. Because early she cant spam her traps as they have a high cd to get a stack. Just focus on SURVIVING lane with little to no deaths and not winning lane. Because lots of people underestimate how hard Cait falls off.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20171 votes

Ok, I'll try that next time I'm bot lane, thanks amigo!

While we're discussing it do you have any more tips for playing against her?

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20172 votes

I have many in fact!

Caitlyn slowly falls off during the laning phase, use this to your advantage whenever you see she starts to fall off. This is only if you havent fed her and youre maintaining ok cs
Ganks impact her unusually hard. I dont know WHAT it is but when you come back to lane you just feel like youve lost so much pressure as Caitlyn, and you feel at a disadvantage.
Teamwork Teamwork Teamwork. Spam those ganks and she might even be useless all game.
She spikes at 3 items + boots. Usually you go IE>Runaans>Boots>Crit items. This is where shell start to come back when she completes that item; abuse this.
Constantly be looking for mispositioning. Say if youre Ashe, whenever Cait can be hit with your W, go for it as it shows you wont go down easy, making the Caitlyn a little more hesitant in what your playstyle is.
She HATES sticky champs like Jax and Kha'zix. She only has one short dash and her traps are super unreliable to kite with. If you can stick to her youll win the trade unless shes super ahead.
Spread out a bit more in fights. This solves the issue of her Runaans stacking her Headshot.
Keep your calm, stay patient, dont try to make dumb plays. This is usually what happens when people play against lane bullies. They get frustrated at try to make plays. Keep cool and wait for the plays to come to you.
Sometimes you may just need to roam for awhile, leave someone at bot to keep the waves cleared, roam mid and probably pick up a kill.
Accept that shes a lane bully and respect that. The sooner you respect that shes got better stats than you early is the first step to shutting her down. She has long range, so whats the tradeoff? As i mentioned before she is allergic to sticky champs. Her passive does tons of damage, So trade if theres a chance when its down.
She has uber low base attack speed. Since attack speed items are percents, she scales slightly worse with them. ABUSE THIS HARD!
CC chain her, DO ANYTHING TO SHUT HER DOWN. But do NOT do it at the cost of her getting a kill. An assist may be ok, but be careful. Shes a lane bully, which gives her uber snowball potential.
Dont let the cancer spread. This is a phrase i learned when i learned how Fizz should be dealt with. Dont feed her, and she isnt a problem, and she cant spread her influence.
Catch her out. If you can find her alone and you have someone with you, obviously go for it. Basic way to deal with any ADC,
Always assumed you just sucked that game. This way youll find ways to not suck, and youll get better at playing against her. Every loss is a lesson about what you did wrong.
Burst champions that can cc her. Basic for any ADC.
. Dont underestimate him if you feel confident that you can outplay her.
Can instantly say screw you to Caitlyns range post lvl 6. Chain cc that s***.
All good picks to survive lane. I like Nami because she has peel and sustain.
Change your build to fit Caitlyn. Rushing will never disappoint.
ARMOR!!! is so worthwhile to build just for the early game. go for a if you feel that would be more useful.
. As i said before this instantly stops chain cc lanes.
Change your playstyle. You cant just rush in the same way as always and expect to win. Caitlyn requires you to be patient. Shes basically the Yasuo and Teemo of bot lane.
Literally just counterpick her early game strength. will crush her late game.
If she roams, force her to give up her map pressure by pushing bot to their inner turret, whether its by direct or slow pushing.

Edit tips:

Xayah seems to be a weird counter. might just be me. Try it though.

Theres a ton more but thats all I can think of now.

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20171 votes

These are all solid advice, and this comment is worthy of its own post IMO.

I can see why Xayah might be a good counter, she gets movement speed from one ability, and her feathers are easier to land on an enemy who has to stand still to use several of their abilities (such as Caitlyn).

Correct me if I am wrong, but In summary:

Be smart about trading and minimize her harass
Clear her traps with someone who can take the harass, or when she's not around to use them
Work with your team to keep her from snowballing
Watch out for power spikes from items
Sustain and resistances are our friend
She's a bully, you have to respect it or she will snowball off of you
Use map rotations and push open lanes to punish her poor mid-game

AFilthyCaitMainMay 22, 20172 votes

Exactly! Once you understand how to play around caitlyn's strengths and weaknesses, the matchup can be so much easier.

Bottom LanerMay 23, 20173 votes

Literally just counterpick her early game strength. will crush her late game.

Yeah, take that Hat Lady!

HigeMay 22, 20172 votes

Uhm I think Cait's traps aren't all THAT powerful, they are not hard to dodge and if maxed early she will be trading off a LOT of damage for it. I do believe traps are incredibly oppressive to play against in a duel but considering that Cait's skills can technically be completely avoided it doesn't seem too unfair, the main problem is that one successful trap will allow her to unleash everything on her enemy.

There is one real problem with traps that is unrelated to the amount of power they provide and it's clear vision of the trap itself... sadly there's not much to do here though since every trap in the game functions in the exact same way... that said I think there is a reasonable tweak to be made:

-Cait's traps now have an area of effect around them that reduces the duration of her nearby traps -Traps whose AoE collides with a turret have their duration reduced too, this effect will stack with the duration reduction from other nearby traps

Of course this will kinda kill wall of traps but if the AoE also reduces Cait's cooldown on her traps by 5 seconds each time the AoE is touched by another trap, all you'll be asking for the Cait player is to pay more agency on the upkeep of a wall made out of traps which seems like a reasonable trade off

And one final adjustment:

-Cait's bonus damage expires as soon as the root ends

In general I do think Cait's general power is over the line but Riot has already stated they will try removing her synergy with hurricane in order to remove a huge power spike from her but I think they will find out in the long run that she has too much of a leeway from traps being incredibly clunky and abusable

HalcyonDwellerMay 22, 20173 votes

I agree, and I understand that it's not optimal for her to max traps. But the frustration they create just seems disproportionate to the fun she gets from them.

{quoted}

Caitlyn could be the lowest winrate ADC in the game and people would still complain about her. Her entire kit is literally "no fun allowed." She's always relevant purely because she's safe...

And I'm fairly certain Riot has come out saying they don't like to keep a character's mechanics in a state where they are 'meh' for the player to use and high frustration for the enemy to deal with.

Blitzcrank is a great example of what Riot likes to see. Hooks feel really good to use, so they're willing to accept the frustration players experience when they are yoinked out of their team and into an untimely demise.

GankLordMay 24, 20172 votes

they should take as long to arm as Jinx's chompers

Thresh Outta FuxMay 23, 20171 votes

The problem i have with cait traps is the lock-on headshots she gets when someone steps in them. Those things deal a crazy amount of damage early game, and even running a leona or a braum support to clear traps for your adc will end up with you losing a quarter of your HP per trap.

HalcyonDwellerMay 23, 20172 votes

I agree, minefields of the traps ought to be safer to clear, maybe not giving headshot again too quickly after stepping on one. That way they would still snare, but not overly abuse you for just using the only method available to you to clear them.

RexxieeMay 23, 20171 votes

Shes being literally gutted on pbe, stop it.

HalcyonDwellerMay 23, 20171 votes

No.

They are removing an unfair advantage she had with Runaan's Hurricane. That is not 'gutting' a champion, it is a single balance change to remove extraneous power.

And it doesn't affect the frustration levels or amount of "no fun allowed" that her kit still shoves down her opponent's throats.

EDIT: The other PBE changes are not gutting. Also I wrote this post before that came out. Here's Meddler's thoughts on the issue:

{quoted}

Conclusion was that the Hurricane change alone wouldn't be enough to bring Caitlyn in line, in particular her late game sustained damage being too high for a champion with that much safety and utility.

Numbers on the PBE are more extreme than what we're likely to ship however. We'll likely be going with 0.543 base AS and 15% bonus AS at level 1, rather than the 0.521 and 10% previously in testing.

ForgiveColourMay 24, 20171 votes

Shes getting graves tier attack speed bud

HalcyonDwellerMay 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Conclusion was that the Hurricane change alone wouldn't be enough to bring Caitlyn in line, in particular her late game sustained damage being too high for a champion with that much safety and utility.

Numbers on the PBE are more extreme than what we're likely to ship however. We'll likely be going with 0.543 base AS and 15% bonus AS at level 1, rather than the 0.521 and 10% previously in testing.

AsutarottoMay 24, 20171 votes

u guys never been zoned by master+ cait mains.

She zone too hard early on "MAXIMUM TRAPS: 3 / 3 / 4 / 4 / 5" to "MAXIMUM TRAPS: 2 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 5" would be really well balanced change.

MizayaMay 24, 20171 votes

The nerfs to her are already enough, runaans basically useless on her lol. I would have rather seen a cast time increase on traps but oh well.

HalcyonDwellerMay 24, 20171 votes

Runaans is going from being abusably effective for Caitlyn back to just as effective for her as it is for other Marksmen. It is far from "useless." It simply now will only work for her in situations where it is the correct choice in her build path instead of all of the time.

I agree, more cast time on traps would be nice.