Are hybrid champions intentionally no longer created?

Valhalla Rising·Jul 13, 2016·23 votes·5,081 views

I started playing after and just before and have recently noticed there have been no hybrid champions released since I started playing, so I checked the champ list by release date and was surprised that there hasnt been any hybrid champion released outside of the first year on the list.

Im not sure how champ kits were composed exactly back then but I think could be called the last true hybrid if not would be.

Then as far as I can tell the next in order would be , , , pre-rework:, , , , ? ? , , pre-ult nerf:, pre-rework:,
patch depending:, , and as far as I can tell the oldest hybrid being.

That is at least 15 and up to 18 Legit hybrid champions that I know could viably build both AP/AD in the first year of this game, and probably more that were changed before I started playing.

I personally love hybrid champions and the recent changes to + proves Riot still approves of the hybrid class, so I really dont get why they quickly gave up making them?

74 Comments

RalanrJul 13, 201617 votes

Possibly too hard to balance?

BeatzBoyFTWJul 13, 20166 votes

Well Mordekaiser is one perfect example to begin with lol :p

Slack KingJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well is one perfect example to begin with lol :p

Isnt really a hybrid champ, as almost all his damage will come out as magic.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 13, 201622 votes

I thought hybrid champs are referring to those who builds semi-AD & AP like Kayle Jax , not about what kind of damage they deal.

Slack KingJul 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I thought hybrid champs are referring to those who builds semi-AD & AP like , not about what kind of damage they deal.

Those champs deal high amounts of magic or physical damage

BeatzBoyFTWJul 13, 20161 votes

Which were resulted in their builds that makes them hybrid champions. Their build is composed of mixed damage builds like item 3078 item 3115 for Kayle & item 3153 for Jax (I meant the good ol' days when Trinity had AD & AP).

In Morde's case, back when Trinity had the AD/AP stats, he was item 3078 item 3116 item 3748 item 3742 viable, until the Mage/Marksman update kicks in & started fking him up.

Slack KingJul 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Which were resulted in their builds that makes them hybrid champions. Their build is composed of mixed damage builds like for Kayle & for Jax (I meant the good ol' days when Trinity had AD & AP).

In Morde's case, back when Trinity had the AD/AP stats, he was viable, until the Mage/Marksman update kicks in & started fking him up.

None the less if jax builds heavier ap you will do more magic damage, if he builds more physical he will deal more physcial.

Morde can build AD or AP and will still deal the majority of his damage as magic

CeexSettJul 13, 20161 votes

This guy is correct, though. Why downvoting?

DeathBot666Jul 13, 20161 votes

His argument is valid, but his case isn't. He's arguing that since you can build AD and do more physical damage, or AP and do more magic damage, that these champions aren't hybrid champions. He's right, but his evidence doesn't support the claim he's making.

Rip901Jul 13, 20161 votes

He's saying that Jax does mixed damage, while not entirely 50/50, depending on what items you buy. This is why Jax would be classified as a "hybrid" champ.

But with Morde, even if he builds more AD than AP, most of his damage will be magic. so he doesn't consider him a true hybrid champion.

SchàdenfreudeJul 13, 20163 votes

Because his definition of hybrid champs is champions doing magic and physical damage. However, the true definition of hybrid champs is champs who benefit from having both AD and AP. The physical/magic damage part just so happens to be a characteristic of hybrd champs.

BoulderoxJul 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slack King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tONKfUal,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-13T03:06:21.669+0000)

Isnt really a hybrid champ, as almost all his damage will come out as magic.

His q scaling says it shouldn't be denied. But yes his magic damage is superior.

Slack KingJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

His q scaling says it shouldn't be denied. But yes his magic damage is superior.

Hybrid doesnt just mean oh they can get use out of ap and ad. Hybrid means if they have the choice to go either or. Eve builds AD and will do mostly physical. She goes ap and will do magic. Same with teemo

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2239897689/33355848?tab=stats

Hybrid build, massively more magic damage. I can go all AD and still do way more magic damage. barely did more physical damage than bard

Malicious MetalJul 13, 20163 votes

I'm disappointed. This Lady right here's been a pain to properly balance while always building Hybrid Kayle

Mordekaiser used to build FULL AP Only with the recent Juggernaut update did Hybrid become a viable option on him and then him being OP stemmed from his out leveling mechanic and gimmicks rather than him building Hybrid items.

RalanrJul 13, 20161 votes

I'm sure Kayle will get some stupid gimmick when she is inevitably reworked.

10TicklerJul 13, 20161 votes

I hope Riot just literally removes her ultimate. It doesn't feel thematically correct to me. An invuln ult? On Tryn, it makes sense. On Zilean, his Rez ult makes sense, hell, even on Yorick.

So why is the Badass Angelic Figure of Judgment and Righteous Vindication (Wonder how her Vindaloo tastes?) given an ultimate that delays judgment? Seriously.

SpecterVonBarenJul 13, 20165 votes

A judgement doesn't have to end with the conclusion the accused is guilty.

Tobias BracknerJul 13, 20161 votes

I feel this is the answer. AP/AD ratios have different costs for different reasons and there is a lot of weird balance stuff for someone who shits AP and AD champs. It's all so much of a mess I can definitely see them just say "you want hybrid? Build a Guinsoo"

AreJul 13, 201612 votes

Riot is straying away from Hybrids because

Little counter play to building against them. Do I buy armor or MR against a champion who goes 50/50 on damage?
Hard to balance. Hybrid items, while niche, would also become too strong on these champions.

IS3E531E3F964391Jul 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Riot is straying away from Hybrids because

Little counter play to building against them. Do I buy armor or MR against a champion who goes 50/50 on damage?

Hard to balance. Hybrid items, while niche, would also become too strong on these champions.

point 1 hits me so hard, facing a jax and whether you rush armor or mr you get screwed either way

RalanrJul 13, 20161 votes

Then you just rush a shit ton of health and hope he doesn't buy Bork.

RavenMagusJul 13, 20161 votes

Point 1 seems like a very strange reasoning - if not an outright lie - considering that that's exactly what they turned Corki into this very season.

Point 2 is fair. They've had a lot of issue finding a spot for Rageblade that was somewhere between busted and useless.

I think a while back I saw someone mentioning something about how it was hard to make hybrid champions play differently between AP and AD, and that's why they stopped doing it. I don't think it's entirely fair to say that though; a lot of marksmen in particular do feel a lot different played as AP, but it's only barely viable on most of them.

Champion SkinJul 13, 20161 votes

The main problem is there is no reason to build hybrid unless hybrid items are insanely strong (or if you are only building 1-2 offensive items) Because... items like item 3089 item 3135 and item 3031 item 3035 generally makes it more effective to either stack AD or AP... not both

DemoGuideJul 13, 20162 votes

Riot is straying away from Hybrids

And then they rework Corki

CeexSettJul 13, 20169 votes

Corki rework didn't make him a hybrid, he builds mostly AD and deals mostly magic damage. It's just another gimmick to give him his niche, and is not a very problematic niche.

Shen also does physical and magic damage, and he isn't a hybrid. And there are more champions, just can't remember.

TotalJerkJul 13, 20161 votes

Shen isn't a hybrid because his scaling is too bad to build him as anything but full tank, same as Sion.

SpecterVonBarenJul 13, 20161 votes

Hybrid damage, not hybrid scaling.

TotalJerkJul 13, 20161 votes

The Corki rework totally killed his AP path.

MorganFreemanBotJul 13, 20164 votes

Hybrids have never really "worked" as a concept. You've always run into one of three cases.

1: The hybrid champion is good to great when built to one particular strength. I.E. Jax building like a bruiser and kayle building full AP. The reason for this varies. Sometimes it's steroids, sometimes it's ratios, sometimes it's just having a functional kit with a balance of the former. The hybrid is generally far weaker in their other build options (AP jax, AD kayle), generally either extraordinarily bad or noticeably below average.

2: The hybrid champion is awful to poor no matter how you build them. A good example is Kayle in (I think late s4?) when she had all of her scaling hit, all ability ranges dramatically nerfed, bases nerfed, and some base stats nerfed.

3: The hybrid champion is poor to average no matter how you build them, however there is one particular item which has the perfect amalgamation of stats to make them strong. I.E. Jax stacking gunblades for that short while where they made the passive stack and heal for any damage (physical or magical) done.

Basically, hybrids are gimmicks. They're only function with one particular build (Jax is a bruiser carry, Kayle is a mage with some utility and some of her damage in autos) and are occasionally, unintentionally, made horrifyingly OP due to some unforeseen interaction with an itemization change.. Which leads to the champ, or the item, being nerfed.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that things like old Yi, old Poppy, and old Sion weren't actually hybrids. When League was first released - and for awhile after - the idea was that AD would only effect auto attacks, AP would only effect abilities.

Early on in league, melee damage champs were just awful. The only ones worth anything were mages (morde) and tanks, the rest were garbo (wyndmere phases not withstanding). AD scaling was one of the things which was implemented in the "everything and the kitchen sink" methodology of trying to get some melee champs who could function beyond being mages or tanks, this is what Irelia and Xin represent.

Eventually Riot realized how poorly it worked and now you have champions who generally have their ability scale with the proper thing, but older champs who haven't been given immense Sion level reworks tend to have elements of this in their kit.

This stuff tends to get taken out because, due to how bizarre a design choice it was, champs who have it tend to be very gimmicky when built that way. I.E. old AP Tristana having some impressive burst, but just about zero damage outside of her ulti and having to use her escape tool as a drop-kick nuke ability to actually kill people.

TequilaZombieJul 13, 20161 votes

I was going to make a post explaining it. But you just almost everything on the subject.

Only thing to add: Hybrid items are garbage right now.

137434Jul 13, 20162 votes

This stuff tends to get taken out because, due to how bizarre a design choice it was, champs who have it tend to be very gimmicky when built that way. I.E. old AP Tristana having some impressive burst, but just about zero damage outside of her ulti and having to use her escape tool as a drop-kick nuke ability to actually kill people.

AP Trist's big problem was her E, with it being a point and click DoT that had 100% AP scaling (that also applied grievous wounds). That was one of the main reasons AP Trist was so cheesy and a big problem- not her ult and jump. Her jump was actually weaker than her E (in both base damage and scaling), although of course it was instant burst.

It highlights how hybrids are hard to make work. The main intention of the skill was to apply grievous wounds so that Trist would perform better in a duel, but became cancer when using AP- thus you have to nerf the AP aspect which in turns hurts hybrid builds and encourages you to focus on AD more.

Mecha MaIphiteJul 13, 20163 votes

In terms of actual damage (not items), Shen is pretty hybrid. His abilities all give him more magic damage, but titanic hydra also gives him a good chunk of physical damage. According to champion.gg, he's almost 50/50 physical and magical.

morris1Jul 13, 20161 votes

Hybrid's a pretty diverse term, as for the post OP classified hybrids as champions that build both AD and AP, Shen only ever builds 1 or 2 damage items consisting of pure AD with no AP and tank items.

HaloDragonXJul 13, 20162 votes

Huh? What are talking about? item 3124 and item 3146 were nerfed, pretty hard. Especially Rageblade.

CherysseJul 13, 20161 votes

Aatrox makes a god hybrid with proper runes and when well played (playstyle is more focused on diving multiple targets and dealing area damage with a good Q-E-Ult burst, than AA until enemies are dead ( item 3124 item 3748 item 3047 item 3812 item 3146 item 3053 ) -also this build makes the Hydra damage heal you for 30% of the damage dealt-

Alistar is kinda Hybrid, even when played AP there are good reasons to get attack speed and maybe some crit runes on this bad cow.

DrMundo damn, it is so fun when you quickly burst an enemy and they don't know how because your build is just akward ( item 3078 item 3151 item 3068 item 3748 item 3742 item 3111 )

Elise has an hybrid component within her spiderlings, but adding hybrid pen runes does the trick (she also does well with fervor).

Jhin has a lot of hybrid comopents and a huge amount of magic damage.

Lucian not so popular but meh, he does the trick when played properly.

Nasus my favorite when played hibryd, mainly because the best part is that you don't have to build AD (unless you go drain tank with item 3146 ) his ult makes him gain AD from AP damage, and his Q scales on physical damage alone, so you get the idea, it is just kinda hard to figure out how to build tanky while keeping a lot of damage potential.

Nidalee still hybrid, she just sucks right now.

RekSai can be played AP, same with Rengar and Hecarim and Udyr

TwistedFate hybrid TF, best TF, specially with item 3094 for some crazy range stuns (same with Sona and Viktor )

Varus really fun when played hybrid (with hybrid pen runes and proper items the damage is crazy), but I prefer him full AD no crit for some crazy Q's

10TicklerJul 13, 20161 votes

Aatrox Is hard as hell to balance, because of his Drain-tank nature. The same reason Vlad got reworked so hard in the mage update. He's dumpster status, and is likely going to stay there, until riot can figure how how to fix his inherently flawed design.

Alistar was originally intended to be a Tanky support, He's a CC-Tank monster who /happens/ to still have some older scalings from his age.

DrMundo has two correct builds. Full tank, or Magic Penetration. Anything else and you're just wasting my, and everyone else's time.

Elise is another case of Balance issues from the get-go. When she's good, she dominates, mostly because of her innate jungle sustain and easy pre-six ganks. When she's bad, she's built tanky and used to separate the weak from the herd, that's it.

Nasus Is another case of 2 'meta' builds that work well, and everything else working is a sign of the ELO. Either you go Tanky and stay top for 20 minutes, so you can 3-shot turrets with 2.5 second Q's, or you go AP and drop an E to Start and End the fight.

Nidalee had a hybrid moment, back in Season 3? 4? something like that, but then they nerfed the AD ratios, and Tankalee became popular for a while. All in all, 80% of her time on the rift has been as an AP-poke assassin.

RekSai and Rengar 's AP scalings are shit. Like they should be.

When it comes down to it, you can FEASIBLY build just about any AP based champion as a Hybrid. 'Cuz all you've gotta do to get your gold's worth is get a Lich Bane, and pattern your combos around inserting AA's between spells. Actually doing /well/ with these champions is a different matter altogether.

But sure, you bring your AP Varus against my Arpen Varus. By the time you've scaled into your skills, I'm 6 items, and chunking your tank for 1/3rd of his health.

CeexSettJul 13, 20162 votes

DrMundo No one mentioned a AD build, but item 3748 and item 3022 can be used to success, but only if you have the money to insert a damage item.

Rengar AP Rengar's scalings aren't shit, it's a double AP Ratio that hits instantly in an AOE, and with enough CDR can be cycled very quickly. Not as good as AD, but doable. Watch Nightblu3.

CherysseJul 13, 20161 votes

I mentioned AD mundo, I just build him hibryd in dps with hibryd pen runes, mainly because you can still tank and still melt your enemies, and makes your poke more viable.

PKnowledgeJul 13, 20161 votes

"But sure, you bring your AP Varus against my Arpen Varus. By the time you've scaled into your skills, I'm 6 items, and chunking your tank for 1/3rd of his health."

Not sure about that. Lvl 6 burst with AP Varus is insane. And item 3115 give you lot of damages with AA early. Even Q does decent damages with item 3285 .

I think that both are good, but ARpen is more about poking to death while AP is all about bursting with ult. The first one is probably stronger early but the second one can wipe a team late game.

10TicklerJul 14, 20161 votes

I wish you luck, hitting that ult on me before I 2-shot you with the Q from outside of it's range :/

PKnowledgeJul 15, 20161 votes

Man, i'm not talking about a 1V1 Varus matchup. And you can't 2 shot anyone with Q at lvl 6 unless you're already far ahead.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 13, 20161 votes

As mentioned by others:

Hard to balance. (Either you deal mediocre damage in two fields or are broken OP with no counterbuild)
Awkward playstyles. Most hybrids are regulated to caster-on-hit builds.
Very few items support their playstyle. (HTGB and Guinsoos is basically it.)
A large amount of alternate playstyles are gimmicky like old AP Yi or Trist.

CherysseJul 13, 20161 votes

Irelia ???????'

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 13, 20161 votes

Irelia isn't a hybrid though?

She's an AD bruiser?

CherysseJul 14, 20161 votes

With True Damage, AP Ratios, Magic Damage, and poke, yeah, she also does quite well with item 3124 and it feeds her ratios.

DarkRitualJul 13, 20161 votes

Hybrid champs are insanely hard to balance. They usually go with either AD or AP, whichever has better itemization, and completely ignore the other. They might get one item that supports the other scaling, but not as much since Rageblade got nerfed into oblivion (and good riddance to it too).

RozzetaJul 13, 20161 votes

Morello specifically stated that they were a balance nightmare, and killed them off.

xaritscinJul 13, 20161 votes

i dont know if it counts as hybrid but Hecarim 's kit scales half with AD (Q and E) and half AP (W and R)...i actually play him AP. its burst is incredible

GrithokJul 15, 20161 votes

Your definition of hybrid leaves a lot to be desired. Do you mean champs that build both simultaneously? That's my idea of hybrid. There just aren't any champs that are viable like that. Even champs that have the option (Jax, Akali, Katarina, for example) they are still more efficient going either one OR the other. Even AD Akali and Katarina are better than trying to mix and match, and there's a few reason for this that are just sort of baked into the idea of multiplicative scaling.

If you don't know what I'm referencing, I'll explain it. AP is great. AD is great. But an AP caster wants 700 ap and 40 cdr way more than they want 1000 ap 0% cdr. Why? Because the multiplicative nature of CDR. The same is true of AD casters. Caster just like having CDR en mass to multiply with their main dmg stat. Marksmen use attack speed and/or crit to multiply their AD. Azir uses attack speed to multiply his AP.

Back to the point. investing money in scaling multiplicatively is far more efficient than trying to just pump up on both stats. That's why all your jaxes grab some ad then increase their dmg with attack speed. (Cutlass -> bork) Then they build tank to increase dmg in another way, by increasing something called damage uptime. The longer you are free to spend attacking also multiplies your damage, in a more round about way.

When you reference any champ that just "could" build ad or ap, though, like Shaco, Kog, or Ezreal, then it gets weirder. I'd argue that AP nasus is strong, if only in ARAM. I also think that MF is still a potential AD/AP flex. And the same goes for nidalee and teemo.

These are still older champs, I admit, but considering the rate at which champions are being made nowadays, it's not at all surprising that so few of them seem... "hybrid". I started playing when just before Aatrox came out. He still seems new to me, and so does every champ after. Lucian. Jinx, or some of my favorites like Gnar and Illaoi. but realistically, the Trox is over 3 years old! There just have been so few champ releases in recent years that the avg age of a champ/mechanic has gone way up.

In summation, I don't think there's been any "give up" type of stance that's been taken by riot in so much as making hybrids goes, I just think that because the super slow rate of release is the way it is, everything seems old. But they made corki more hybrid than ever in the relatively recent marksman update, if that's not proof that riot didn't give up on the idea, then nothing is. =p