Ryze Q a skillshot now?

Burnt Light·Apr 9, 2015·36 votes·4,084 views

You better make Annie's Q a skillshot too.

42 Comments

SalidfingersApr 10, 20156 votes

HAHAHA, I will abuse SUPPORT RYZE with longer distance Q. You think a short range point and click is bad :P

ShadowShoe22Apr 10, 20156 votes

Ok. I get what you are saying, But the difference from an Annie q and a Ryze q is that one can be cc.

And what counters mobility? Targeted cc. Do you want kalistas going everywhere not being able to be hit by cc, and thus having an infinite kite?

Hard PenetratorApr 10, 20151 votes

I think with Veigar and Ryze changes sooner or later Annie will get some treatment too. Her kit was similar to both of them and it would actually felt weird if she was left alone.

TheRakkunApr 9, 20155 votes

That's not going to help, because then she'll just flash W you, or flash R you instead, she needs a rework IMHO, her kit's just broken (Not OP but broken)

Krys StarApr 9, 20158 votes

{quoted}

That's not going to help, because then she'll just flash W you, or flash R you instead, she needs a rework IMHO, her kit's just broken (Not OP but broken)

She still does that even on live... when Flash ISN'T on cooldown. That's just how she works... Making her Q a skillshot would make her healthier to deal with, because then you could Flash away from her W and R. What'll truly fix her is to prevent her from holding onto her passive eternally, until she casts a spell other than Molten Shield. That or give her Tibbers a 0.5 delay before he impacts.

junglerboy16Apr 10, 20156 votes

This^ It isn't that she has a targeted ability in her kit or that she can flash stun you, those are perfectly healthy interactions. The unhealthy part is that she can cast 4 spells and immediately have her threat level go up from 0-100 and then stay there. For anyone who hasn't seen Ryze's rework, they changed his passive so that instead of just being a spell spammer, he gets short bursts of really high spell spammability (higher than on live) and then back to normal spell cast times, so that his opponents aren't just left with "stay out of range or get melted" they have "I can trade for a while until he gets his passive off and then it's time to get out of range". If Annie's stun only stayed up for ~5-10 seconds before resetting (based on level), that would give a clear window in which to trade with her, and a clear window in which to stay the hell away.

The only other suggestion I'd make is that instead of letting casting a spell charge her stun, they should have it require actually hitting an enemy unit to charge the stun. No more W spam for free stun charging, she actually has to hit somebody with it for it to charge up. With that change and the stun charge resetting if not used, they could finally balance her well.

DarksideEricApr 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

This^ It isn't that she has a targeted ability in her kit or that she can flash stun you, those are perfectly healthy interactions. The unhealthy part is that she can cast 4 spells and immediately have her threat level go up from 0-100 and then stay there.

So... you mean she functions like many, many other Champions then?

I don't get this new found "OMG ANNIE HAS TARGETED STUN" kick people are on. When her stun is up she becomes on par with nearly any other "point and click" Champion in terms of her damage potential / danger level.

Akali doesn't need to cast any spells to have her threat level go from 0 - 100. Nor does Alistar. Nor does Fidd. Nor does Fiora. Nor does a host of multiple other Champions of multiple different classes.

Her "threat level" goes from 0 - 100 after four spells?

Awesome, Wukong's threat level goes 0 - 100 without any previous spell casts to set his own combo up. Really, I don't understand people's new found anti-Annie stance when multiple other Champions can do multiple things she can do without having to build up to it.

junglerboy16Apr 10, 20151 votes

I'm not on any sort of kick about Annie having a targeted stun (in fact, I said that part was fine). I just meant that she gains immense zoning strength simply for having a stun charged (and the unhealthy part is that instead of having a short window of strong zoning presence, she can hold onto it indefinitely). Fiddle has shorter range and most of his damage can be interrupted (channel canceling, straight up killing him when he ults in). Everyone else you listed is melee. That is very important in this comparison because their threat range is relatively short compared to Annie's. The key point you missed in my post is that I was saying the fact that it stayed at full threat indefinitely is the problem. If she simply had a window of "I have to use my stun or else it will reset (like most other stacking passive abilities, a la Yi's double strike, Leona's sunlight passive, etc.)" then she would have room for better spell ratios, better base stats, and more strategic play. I don't want them to add a timer on how long she can hold stun because "OMG nurf Annie plox!" I wan't them to add that so that she can be properly balanced, and potentially be viable as a real mage and a support at the same time.

I honestly don't care about Annie (seriously, I just buy merc treads and a banshees veil and I'm set), but her kit still has unhealthy interactions anyway, just like akali, fiddle, flora, and alistar do.

DarksideEricApr 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not on any sort of kick about Annie having a targeted stun (in fact, I said that part was fine). I just meant that she gains immense zoning strength simply for having a stun charged (and the unhealthy part is that instead of having a short window of strong zoning presence, she can hold onto it indefinitely). Fiddle has shorter range and most of his damage can be interrupted (channel canceling, straight up killing him when he ults in). Everyone else you listed is melee. That is very important in this comparison because their threat range is relatively short compared to Annie's. The key point you missed in my post is that I was saying the fact that it stayed at full threat indefinitely is the problem. If she simply had a window of "I have to use my stun or else it will reset (like most other stacking passive abilities, a la Yi's double strike, Leona's sunlight passive, etc.)" then she would have room for better spell ratios, better base stats, and more strategic play. I don't want them to add a timer on how long she can hold stun because "OMG nurf Annie plox!" I wan't them to add that so that she can be properly balanced, and potentially be viable as a real mage and a support at the same time.

I honestly don't care about Annie (seriously, I just buy merc treads and a banshees veil and I'm set), but her kit still has unhealthy interactions anyway, just like akali, fiddle, flora, and alistar do.

"The key point you missed in my post is that I was saying the fact that it stayed at full threat indefinitely is the problem."

So does every other Champion. When Naut is level 6, is he not at "full threat" indefinitely? Does he have to do something special to be full threat? Last I checked, a level 6 Naut can be very dangerous. Same with a level 6 Lux or even a level 6 Renekton.

Your angle of "full threat indefinitely" is really rather dumb. If Alister casts no spells, he's at "full threat indefinitely" because he can Headbutt + Pulversize + Ult + Heal at any time with little to no warning.

You want Annie to be properly balanced? She already is. You mention you want her Passive stack to work like other Passive stacks, thing is, Annie has to do four spells before she gets her Passive stack. Leona's Sunlight? It activates on one. Leona requires no spell combo to get her Passive. I'm not sure why you're comparing a Passive stack that requires multiple spells to be used that has a visual indicator that it's up to Passive stack abilities that can be applied with just one spell and has no visual indicator that the user (like Leona) is ready to apply it.

Soda PopkillskiApr 10, 20151 votes

Because it stuns you, leaving you to be absolutely buttfucked. Wukongs E doesn't stun you. Alistars W pushes you away (and there is a WQ combo, but that takes a ridiculous amount of skill). Fidd's ult is the only stun, ish attack, and that's an ultimate, a skillshot one. A hard to hit skillshot one in fact. Fiora, Yi, Xin have been massive offenders of bad design for a long time, and people do complain about it (especially YI). Same with Jax in fact, though people don't complain too much about that.

DarksideEricApr 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Soda Popkillski,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tNG5PzEy,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-04-10T13:41:16.775+0000)

Because it stuns you, leaving you to be absolutely buttfucked.

And other Stuns or CC don't?

Wukongs E doesn't stun you.

We weren't talking exclusively Stun, we were talking ramping danger from 0 - 100. Wukong's E requires no prior spells to be dangerous.

Alistars W pushes you away (and there is a WQ combo, but that takes a ridiculous amount of skill).

So... because it takes skill it doesn't count? Again, 0 - 100 danger ramping. Ali does this without prior set up.

Fidd's ult is the only stun, ish attack, and that's an ultimate, a skillshot one. A hard to hit skillshot one in fact.

His Silence, not so hard to hit. Nor is his Fear. Again, 0 - 100 danger ramping here.

Fiora, Yi, Xin have been massive offenders of bad design for a long time, and people do complain about it (especially YI). Same with Jax in fact, though people don't complain too much about that.

It's seems you're not getting the point... like, at all.

KuboxApr 10, 20158 votes

Annie already has a clear window, it's called when she just used her stun.

Sure she can sit on it for how long she wants, but that means she can't use any skill until she wants to stun. Push the wave. Force her to cast something. And if you can't do that, then that's probably why that player picked Annie in the first place, to counter you. Happens to a lot of people and champions. Rush some early MR or out-roam her.

If she's support, then it's all about not letting her snowball the bot lane. She's susceptible to early hard engage and/or poke, as until 6 she doesn't have much to fight it. Thresh, Leona, Alistar, Blitz, all do a great job of shutting her down when played well.

CubedJusticeApr 10, 20154 votes

Just compensate her for the loss of DFG.

FearEngineerApr 10, 20151 votes

I laughed.

Meep ManApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That's not going to help, because then she'll just flash W you, or flash R you instead, she needs a rework IMHO, her kit's just broken (Not OP but broken)

Her R just needs that throw in the bear animation as a really short delay so you can react and Flash or dash away. Immobile people are TYPICALLY tanky enough to withstand her burst if she isn't super fed or they aren't super behind.

kunkudunkApr 10, 20152 votes

I mean the bear throw animation would look way cooler too.

shadecrapperApr 10, 20151 votes

I was once Rocket jumped, flashed, and thresh lanterned her W, but the dang thing still followed and killed me. Its a little strnage that a spell like that will follow you that far, or follow you at all... but it was pretty funny.

TarynApr 9, 20155 votes

If that happens then she needs a range increase on everything, especially her W. Since apparently being immobile and practically melee range isn't enough for people to wrap their heads around.

Like of all the champs to complain about today, Annie is the most laughable. Her kit has been the same since literally the beginning of time and now she's suddenly OP. Hilarious.

MeesterMooApr 10, 20154 votes

Ryze was changed because literally his whole kit was a "oops my cat is walking on my keyboard" kit, whereas now he actually takes skill. Annie is fine! I don't know what your talking about. She can wreck just as well if not more and can be shut down if you are playing against her right.

junglerboy16Apr 10, 20152 votes

Not at all actually. They changed it because his kit is "walk in my range and prepare for a world of hurt" (spam all spells and murder people, or never be in range and be a total non-entity). Changing the Q to a skill shot doesn't make him any harder to play at all actually (you're pathetic if you think a single skill shot will make him harder to play for anyone except a level one player), it is so that there is counterplay. Point and click lacks counterplay, but now you can stand behind minions to avoid it, or sidestep it, meaning his threat range can be larger, but less extreme. Now he has a threat range of 900 (instead of 625), but instead of being a permanent "stay away or die" zone, it is now "be careful within my range." This will actually make his anti-melee lane bully pattern as a top laner go away almost entirely, which is a very good thing, because he only has 2 targeted abilities now, which lets a melee have more breathing room when within Ryze's range.

Annie is fine though, she just needs to not be able to hold onto her stun for forever.

Hard PenetratorApr 10, 20151 votes

Veigar was fine too. If they won't change Annie in a year, everything they said about Veigar will be hypocritical.

junglerboy16Apr 10, 20151 votes

Agreed, I think Veigar was actually healthier to play against before they changed him to be honest.

Raja ChachkiApr 10, 20151 votes

While I agree she isn't a champion to complain about, her range is far from melee. Auto's are 625 range, so is her Q, even her ulti is 600 range(perfectly fine). Just pointing out that her range is very high, but she needs it considering she is completely immobile.

TarynApr 10, 20153 votes

Very high? I'd consider the ranges of champions such as Brand (1050 Q) or maybe Cassiopeia (700 on E, her lowest range btw) or Vel Koz, or Xerath to be high. Hell even Katarina outranges Annie on both her Q and her E. Leblanc can Q, R, and E all outside Annie's range and dash in for the kill.

I would say that Annie's range, as an immobile squishy mage, to be quite short.

junglerboy16Apr 10, 20154 votes

To be fair, Ryze will be going from 4 targeted abilities to 3 targeted abilities, where changing that on Annie would take her from 1 targeted ability to 0.

Really, Annie is not a problem right now. Buy merc treads, buy Banshee's veil, get a QSS or Mikael's or take cleanse. Seriously, it isn't hard to counter play her stun at all.

KingsgraveApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, Ryze will be going from 4 targeted abilities to 3 targeted abilities, where changing that on Annie would take her from 1 targeted ability to 0.

Really, Annie is not a problem right now. Buy merc treads, buy Banshee's veil, get a QSS or Mikael's or take cleanse. Seriously, it isn't hard to counter play her stun at all.

Her cone and shield are in no way skillshots and are basically the same as a targeted ability in terms of how mindless it is to cast them.

AbiwonKenabiApr 10, 20151 votes

But with her W you have to be practically melee range for it to actually hit. It's not mindless at all: Annie is squishy, and if mispositions she can die very easily.

She can also get poked down, and if you force her to blow flash not on an engage, her options become much more limited.

Also, Ryze's snare is still targeted. Why are we not complaining about that?

B3ERApr 11, 20152 votes

My issue with it is that it's a completely uninspired skillshot. it doesn't make him any less boring than he already is.

ModKnightsKemplarApr 9, 20151 votes

You knew it was coming.

Curling VeigarApr 9, 20151 votes

One can only hope

next is taric's dazzle

HappyHazard07Apr 9, 20151 votes

Look out Taric... (your next)

ScrimshäwApr 10, 20151 votes

and make her ult like corki's Q

flibitydooApr 10, 20151 votes

Yah it's OP buy item 3070 sit in fountain and hold down the Q button charge tear to 1000 go outside and oneshot people cause mana scaling without ever having to interact with enemies that actually fight back

GorgiolioApr 10, 20151 votes

Mana scaling got nerfed lol not even wurf

ShadowShoe22Apr 10, 20151 votes

Ok. I get what you are saying, But the difference from an Annie q and a Ryze q is that one can be cc.

And what counters mobility? Targeted cc. Do you want kalistas going everywhere not being able to be hit by cc, and thus having an infinite kite?

AlëkApr 10, 20151 votes

gonna be easier for ryze to farm safely now. I felt that before he had a real weakness in being a short ranged mage. So against long range mages he would suffer tons. Whereas he still has that problem, his farming from long range definitely helps his early game safety wise. Since he no longer scales as hard on mana his late game was nerfed, but looks like his overall gameplay was buffed and he has more options for outplay instead of the normal faceroll keyboard late game. I look forward to the next patch.

BluePolarizerApr 10, 20151 votes

fking ridiculous how they're changing everything to be CC and balancing the game around low elo solo queue 1v1s in lane, instead of balancing around teamfights in 5v5 challenger level competitive.

going by their track record they're gonna fking nerf Fiora or Olaf next cuz muh counterplays while buffing Zed and LeBlanc because they "have skillshots that can be sidesteped" rofl

Soda PopkillskiApr 10, 20151 votes

Great idea. I fakin hate this champion and the lack of being able to dodge a stun like that. I mean seriously, if you make Veigars stun not instant, at least fix the worst offender. Though I guess it would be a little too similar to brand... I dunno...

And I love the news I have heard about Ryze getting a skillshot, he was just such a ridiculously boring champ to play previously.

SimplicateApr 10, 20151 votes

Everybody complains about Annie burstability but no one says anything about LB? K

Loken StoneheartApr 10, 20151 votes

It is so dang annoying that they keep turning EVERY Q in the game into a skillshot, and every mage into a damned poke-mage by doing that.

WildJesterApr 11, 20151 votes

Yes it is a skill shot. For more info look "brofresco" on youtube and he releesed a deep info video on his rework

Alice NullApr 11, 20151 votes

I actually like the ryze rework, I always found him to be rather boring and stagnant, while this rework actually makes you think about what you're doing and gives actual counter-play besides hoping rngsus makes his E completely miss if you're a melee top. As he was all of his abilities were just point and click, fire and forget spells, except his ult, which was an active buff ult ala singed.
Not to mention if you WEREN'T a completely melee top, you could completely fuck him over from range via bush shenanigans, because if he didn't have vision there was absolutely NOTHING he could do, which is why I would buy a red trinket if I was facing ryze.

With his rework, hes still going to be pretty powerful, he just has a higher skill cap, and actually meaningful choices from both sides rather than just running up to someone q>w>e>q on repeat for the entire game with no chance at dodging his full combo except his E after the first bounce, and even then only if you were near a minion wave, because it was rng.

See, what you're forgetting is Ryze s abilities scale with mana, and that hes mostly played top, while annie is a burst mage played mostly bot and mid. Ryze can build pretty tanky without sacrificing too much damage (frozen heart, the shield from seraphs, RoA gave him huge amounts of damage along with health, etc.), so having a full point'n'click skill set on him with his old passive made him have full power all game rather than points of consequence,

while Annie has very little ability to build tanky without sacrificing much of her power (excluding RoA), which means for the most part she is squishy as all hell, not to mention she is pretty much always against high range champions and/or flighty assassins with their own CC, AND her stun is readily apparent when its up, which generally signifies to not start a fight yet and instead poke at range.