We need AP/Armour item that isn't Zhonya's

Zero Skill Tank·Feb 10, 2016·140 votes·7,372 views

ATTENTION: The point of this tread is not to create second AP/ARMOUR item. It is to REPLACE Zhonya's.

Title says it all, constant bitching of mains got Zhonya's nerfed below any viability, meanwhile amount of armor penetration available for ad casters, and general amount of physical damage in each game is higher than ever.

If "I click u die muh skillz #outplayed ctrl+6 ctrl+4 ctrl+4" play pattern is considered healthier than a stasis that's fine with me, pressing a button to save yourself is just as dumb as pointing a champion and facerolling keyboard to kill them. Just remove Zhonya's altogether and make some actually fun and viable armor item in it's place.

e. amount of flat armor penetration of course, this is what concerns mages.

136 Comments

Hex the FenFenFeb 10, 201616 votes

Especially since the new assassin item is cheaper than Zhonyas, how can mages be expected to rush it while being heavily oppressed in lane? And now every AD fighter/Assassin has Zed's ult...

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 20166 votes

That's part of the problem, yes. If we look at stats of say Zed , we will see that on average he gets more early gold, and if less than barely so, even in his worst match-ups. Meanwhile his core items are cheaper than the only counter item, for about 20 first minutes of the game (and I remind games are short and snowbally in S6) leaving a mage with a choice: do I give him advantage, or do I give him more advantage?

But because this only option counters him or Talon so completely in a certain situation, it can't be made strong or cheap. This is why I proposed removal of Zhonya.

spyofheavensFeb 10, 201610 votes

I think it could be an item like HexDrinker instead of giving a shield it could restore some health and give a brief movement speed buff, it could be built from Seeker's Armguard, Giant’s belt, and Blasting wand.

Stats 80 AP 25 Armor 400 Health

Unique passive Life keeper, every time you deal damage to a champion it saves a portion of the damage dealt as health, up to 400. Unique passive: Upon taking 30% damage in less than 3 seconds gives half of the health stored and gives a 30% 2 seconds movement speed buff.

Active: Consumes all the health stored in the Life Keeper and gives 40 % movement speed buff.

(User can have only one item built like Hydra.)

TohobFeb 10, 20169 votes

armor/damage itemization as well as resistances with AP are very lacking. if you want MR as an AD champ, you can get item 3156 item 3091 item 3139 . is situational, but the other 2 are not, and they're all great items. if you want armor as an AD champ, you get.. item 3025 .. item 3742 ? they're good but neither of them actually give damage. there's no such thing as an item that gives both AD and armor.

if you want MR as an AP champ, you get item 3001 item 3174 , which are both situational items. is only good if you're close range, and gives pitiful MR and is mostly just bought for the mana regen, which makes it useless if you aren't a champion who uses mana. if you want armor as an AP champ, you get item 3157 . that is your only option.

AP's just kinda get hosed with itemization, and i really hope they give them some item love in the immobile mage update that's coming up. maybe they should just bring item 3170 over to summoner's rift or something

CasriFeb 10, 20168 votes

maybe they should just bring over to summoner's rift or something

I love Moonflair Spellblade, but I think Riot have said in the past that they're unlikely to move it to Summoner's Rift because it would be abused hard by champions like: Diana Kassadin Malphite Nidalee Nautilus . Basically making champs who are already tanky or evasive even more irritating, rather than aiding the target group- mages.

The stats, for those who don't know: 50 AP 50 Armour 50 Magic Resist Unique - 35% Tenacity Price 2500g It's a very cheap, all-encompassing defensive item for any AP champion.

Aside from this, I agree that with the release of Duskblade of Draktharr, mages are going to need something. AD assassins were already in a good spot before today's patch, especially Zed who is arguably in the top 5 of Mids right now, even before Duskblade. An argument could have been made for some AP assassins (Akali), but ADs? Nope.

Riot seemingly decided in November/December that AD assassins sucked without waiting to see if that was actually the case. Now we all get to deal with the ensuing bullsh*t.

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 20163 votes

The thing is mages are different. A bruiser can reasonably alternate between tanky and damage item, because tankyness in their case can be used to deal more damage - they stand longer, they attack more. Also their high base stats and sustain makes resistance items simply far better on them. A mage who would stop building damage for 2900 gold to get a Randuins as their second item won't get nearly any benefits from it. That's why the class always had a set of powerful dual items like item 3027 item 3157 item 3001 item 3116 item 3151 item 3174 , old item 3170 , so that fed opponent didn't turn them useless immediately.

But changes to itemization practically removed every armor option, leaving mages with really bad iteration of Zhonya in days when physical damage is as popular as it never was. If you look at mid winrates, you will see how it is dominated by AD champions, or mages with powerful defensive abilities, be it targetable stun or very strong shield or for of invulnerability - simply because armor itemization is nonexistant.

TohobFeb 10, 20164 votes

you'd think AP/armor items would be going up an up over the years, consiering how AD mid has grown. there was once a time when AD mids weren't a thing, when zed and yasuo didn't exist and playing urgot mid just got you reported by 9 people, so your only option for an AD mid was Talon , and nobody played him because an AD mid? that sounds awful!

and yet, since those days, AP/armor has gone nowhere but down. maybe they were just trying to prevent Vladimir from becoming truly unkillable.

BroLaneFeb 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

if you want armor as an AD champ, you get.. .. ? they're good but neither of them actually give damage. there's no such thing as an item that gives both AD and armor.

Neither give DIRECT AD. Both offer on hit effects that do extra damage though, and you have to take that into account.

TohobFeb 13, 20161 votes

by "damage" i meant AD, in that they don't grant any scaling. they both deal damage, but it's not the type of damage you can add to your ratios

BroLaneFeb 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

by "damage" i meant AD, in that they don't grant any scaling. they both deal damage, but it's not the type of damage you can add to your ratios

True, but the damage isn't negligible.

AeszarckFeb 10, 20168 votes

Technically we have four AP/Armor items that aren't Zhonya's Hourglass.

Zeke's Harbinger, Moonflair Spellblade, Wooglet's Witchcap, and Seeker's Armguard.

(Is this disliking because you can't buy Wooglet's Witchcap and Moonflair Spellblade together with Zhonya's Hourglass? If so, I'm aware of that fully. I never stated that there were other AP/armor options to Zhonya's Hourglass, I stated that there were other items. Zeke's Harbinger is generally considered a support item, but I do honestly think it's in opposition to the stated point of the original poster, that there are no other AP armor items (for Summoner's Rift). However, it's not an optimal item on mages in most cases. I said Seeker's Armguard just for fun. It's obviously not an option, but it's still an item.)

(Whatever it is you guys don't agree with, I'd really like to talk about it with you in a serious discussion. Downvoting and not commenting is unproductive, as is upvoting and not commenting. Please comment! I'd like to hear all your points of view!)

SkelenthFeb 10, 201647 votes

Of which 2 are not available on SR and one is actually a support item. And the last one is just uncompleted Zhonyas

Unstoppable MonkFeb 10, 20165 votes

I miss Moonflair Spellblade on SR. =(

AeszarckFeb 10, 20162 votes

I never experienced when it was on Summoner's Rift (when was this? :o), but I play a lot of mages and it would definitely be nice. It would also create a lot of balance issues though, I feel. I think it's on Twisted Treeline because Wooglet's Witchcap combines Zhonya's Hourglass and Rabadon's Deathcap and it leaves some mages with an open slot.

elon wątrobaFeb 10, 20161 votes

season 2 along with cloak and dagger and gp/5 items.

AeszarckFeb 10, 20161 votes

Wow, that was a long time ago. Thanks for the information!

elon wątrobaFeb 10, 20161 votes

2 gp/5 items on irelia #neverforget :D

AeszarckFeb 10, 20161 votes

What were the items, and why do you mention Irelia? (Irelia is, like, my favorite top laner.)

Shes Gone NowFeb 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What were the items, and why do you mention Irelia? (Irelia is, like, my favorite top laner.)

Heart of Gold (HP + GP/5), and Philosopher Stone (Regeneration + GP/5), There was also Kage Lucky Pick but that was for AP champions.

AeszarckFeb 10, 20161 votes

That sounds pretty cool. I'm guessing they were basically mandatory items?

elon wątrobaFeb 10, 20163 votes

Just for accelerating gold, she was selling them in mid-late game.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 11, 20162 votes

I think the reason you're receiving downvotes is because you stated that we have other ap/armor items, while wooglets witchcap is just zhonyas on non-SR maps (or should I say map? RIP Dominion), but you know, if they gave us moonflair spellblade on SR, that would be cool. Zeke's is more of an utility item that is purely situational, and not every mage would like it (would you pick it up if you were LeBlanc? Or Annie? Or Rumble?) And I'm gonna agree with Skelenth here, seeker's armguard is a component, not a finished item, but I DEFNINITELY think that it needs to build into more items, if not just bring Moonflair to SR.

AeszarckFeb 11, 20162 votes

First of all, thanks for the comment! Really great to hear your feedback! For whatever reason your comment wasn't showing up for the normal page view and I didn't see it until now when I checked updates. (I was just furiously refreshing the page every few minutes to see if there were any new posts.) Sorry about not responding sooner! Basically, my point was to make a somewhat funny post about how we do have more than just one AP/armor item and that the original poster was forgetting a few. Zeke's Harbinger is a AP/Armor full item on Summoner's Rift, and at first I was going to mention just that but add a qualifier: it doesn't work for most middle lane, top lane, or jungle mages except in the most extreme of circumstances (like where the mage down on his/her luck, the Marksman is doing amazing, and the support has other priorities than Zeke's Harbinger.) Then, I realized that I could make a joke about how Twisted Treeline was a better environment for mages by stating its two now map-exclusive AP/armor items. Now I know that BigBadBadger was talking about Summoner's Rift and he wouldn't have mentioned those items, especially because one even functioned much like a Hourglass! But I said, "eh," and told myself that I had to make the joke and educate people at the same time that there are technically more AP/armor items, even though they're irrelevant in a situation where Zhonya's Hourglass was mentioned. Finally, BigBadBadger obviously knows about Seeker's Armguard. I was still feeling in a happy mood (thinking about the subtle Twisted Treeline master race joke I'd make), and thought, "why not, I already listed all the other AP/armor items," and so I put it down. So basically, one semi-serious thing, and three jokes made on the false premise that BigBadBadger was talking about all of the AP/armor items instead of only the ones for middle lane, top lane, and jungle mages. I thought that the word "Technically" in italics established the semi-joking tone I had, but it apparently failed quite badly. I feel like it might have even gone better without the word, since it might have seemed confrontational.

Moonflair Spellblade is such a good item, and I'd love to be able to use it more. However, it's not the most balanced item, and certain mages would work really nicely with it, like Lissandra and Galio, and would offset the balance of the game a decent bit as Riot tried to nerf the mages who were too strong with it and maybe give some buffs to those who didn't work with it or buff more AD assassins to account for just how much harder it will be to assassinate a mage with Moonflair Spellblade and Zhonya's Hourglass. (That's one reason why assassins aren't so prevalent on Twisted Treeline, even though the ability to assassinate one target is even more important there.) It would also reintroduce tenacity back into Summoner's Rift, and Riot wants that out as much as possible. I think it's kept in Twisted Treeline because the slot left open by the fusion of Rabadon's Deathcap and Zhonya's Hourglass leaves a big hole in many mages' builds, and Moonflair Spellblade is a convienient item that everyone can use.

I really need to get to bed, but I'd love it if we can keep this discussion going. I know I didn't respond to your point about more items from Seeker's Armguard, and I want to address that. Thank you for your comment! Much appreciated!

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 11, 20162 votes

I did look up Moonflair Spellblade, and all of the stats seem pretty good, but the tenacity part might be too much if on CC mages, I'll agree there, but some fine tuning can certainly make it balanced.

Moonflair just seems like a very defensive item, which we need more of if we fall behind in lane, or need something in case the other team has an equal share of AD and AP, somewhat of a 4th or 3rd item, depending on how the game goes. Zz'Rot and Guardian Angel offer the same amount of armor and magic resist, but I wouldn't dare buy Zz'Rot on Annie, I'd lose out on offensive capabilities, not to mention Zz'Rot is a niche item for high health tanks if they want to split push but also be with the team (the voidlings deal more damage based on your health).

Yeah, I'm not too sure about the tenacity vendetta either, when the champion pool (and most of the champions played nowadays) all have slows or something that would be nice to build tenacity against. Probably because it made balancing of certain characters harder if they had to put into account that there might be some tenacity thrown into their build with some items (Zephyr and Mercury Treads).

Imagine having Moonflair, Zephyr, and Mercury Treads on Irelia. She would get an exponential amount of tenacity (items and passive), and practically ignore any CC applied to her. Now, that would make her really dominant because she can never be slowed, stunned, or rooted, and those are the three main CC abilities that make ganks and kills the most reliable.

And if there was an ungankable champion being dominant thanks to items making other champions' lives easier in other lanes, then everyone would be unhappy that one champion has to ruin the fun for everyone else.

Lissandra with tenacity? Imagine her with a Rylais. Good luck getting away from her.

I think the main problem is that there are items that give AP and health, but there are very minuscule amounts of items that give AP and defenses like armor and magic resist, which we need more of.

Abyssal gives AP and MR, Zeke's gives small amount of AP and armor, Zhonya's gives AP and armor, Athenes gives AP and magic resist, Banner of Command gives AP and magic resist... and thats about it. Half of those are niche items. There aren't many defensive items that give resistances without sacrificing offensive stats.

A lot of times, especially with how snowbally the game has become, I feel the need to be grabbing more and more defensive items early in order to survive and wait it out until me and the rest of my team can do something.

AeszarckFeb 12, 20161 votes

I forgot about Irelia; Moonflair Spellblade would work so well on her because it would give her higher defenses, more damage on her Equilibrium Strike and Transcendent Blades, and of course tenacity. I think the reason why Riot doesn't want tenacity is because it makes abilities feel wrong. It feels better to gank someone with a Quicksilver Sash than it feels to gank someone with tenacity, because A. you forget about the tenacity when you gank and the Irelia escapes before you pull off your full combo on her and B. it felt like Irelia had to do nothing, because tenacity is passive. If Quicksilver Sash goes off, at least you knew that you made the person feel threatened enough to blow Quicksilver. It also introduces a skill aspect; with Quicksilver Sash/Mercurial Scimitar, you are in control of your life, rather than your stats being in control. Basically, cleanses are more rewarding for the would-be victim and are more tangible to the attacker than tenacity.

I agree, Moonflair Spellblade definitely could be balanced, but it would take some ironing out, and I'm not sure if we need another variable thrown into the already somewhat unstable balance that we have. It's not the case that all of our AD (and AP) assassins are doing so well and that all of our mages are doing so poorly that we need to give them Moonflair Spellblade. If we did, I think the phrase "League of Assassins" may change to "League of Mages". Assassins are definitely having a hell of a time on the Rift right now, but considering a good deal of them are middle laners, adding a strong hybrid defensive/offensive item for mages would hurt them all pretty badly, more than I think is necessary. (I think they do need some slight tuning down though.) It'd also make certain top lane mages absolutely horrendous. I've read complaints on the boards about how Lulu/Swain/Lissandra top are "literally cancer" to lane against as a melee, and adding this would only exacerbate the problem. As the game progresses, most melees often get strong gap closers, damage, and/or tankiness that allow them to kill the mages when they manage to get to them (often by locking them down with crowd control), but if the mage has built Rod of Ages/Rylai's Crystal Scepter/Liandry's Torment (which are typical on the short-ranged bruiser mages sent top lane) and a Moonflair Spellblade, the mage is going to be quite tanky, slippery, and hell to get to if he or she has a Scepter.

This brings me to your point of having too many AP items with health. I think it's okay for AP items to have health on them; if they didn't, our short-ranged mages would be in a really poor place. I do think that we need more items with resistances too. I think the problem is that we need to make more of those items without encouraging the short-ranged mages to partake in those items along with their health items, and becoming too tanky while dealing decent damage and providing good utility.

I'm confused about your point on "There aren't many defensive items that give resistances without sacrificing offensive stats." Shouldn't that be the case, that adding defensive stats sacrifices offensive stats on an item?

The game is pretty snowbally right now, and it's definitely right of you to build defensively if you feel threatened by your lane opponent/enemy jungler, but I wouldn't build defensively if I felt confident in my matchup. I realize that assassins are often the champions that cause most players to feel threatened (in middle lane), but I think that's their nature. Most are lane bullies, just like Darius and Riven are top lane. They don't have as quite a big teamfight presence later game as most other mages do if unfed, and building defensively is the right way to go in most situations. I'd do that in any meta if I felt threatened though, not just a snowball one.

Also, your previous point about more items from Seeker's Armguard. It would definitely be really cool and I think that Riot could make some nice variety in the AP item tree for mages going up against AD champions, but as long as there were options with clear tradeoffs and mages weren't encouraged to take all the AP/armor items. If the mage is taking multiple AP/armor items to increase survivability, the mage should be making a clear tradeoff in other stats and playstyle. (Like players wanting a quick path to 40% CDR by taking Morellonomicon and Athene's Unholy Grail.) The mage should also be harder to kill, but not unkillable. That's one of my problems with making an AP version of Quicksilver Sash - mages with that and Zhonya's Hourglass would be insane. People are already complaining about champions like Fizz being unkillable with just Zhonya's Hourglass and cooldown reduction.

ThatWood5GuyFeb 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That's one of my problems with making an AP version of Quicksilver Sash - mages with that and Zhonya's Hourglass would be insane. People are already complaining about champions like Fizz being unkillable with just Zhonya's Hourglass and cooldown reduction.

But I can already build QSS as a mage if the enemy team has any Ap at all. Why should ad be the only ones to benefit? Currently, zed can stack DoD, Maw and ghostblade and arpen runes and zip through my zhonyas paltry 50(maybe 65 if you had the time to farm) armor. It would do me much better to be able to QSS after zed blinks away, thinking he has a kill when I can remove duskblade AND death mark with one active. Force him to commit to that level 7 tower dive and possibly die instead of R > AA > Q > E > W > AA > R blink Ctrl - 4 spam

AeszarckFeb 12, 20161 votes

You can buy Quicksilver Sash as a mage, it just won't be as useful. I think it's a nice buy for mages if the situation requires it; you can just sell it later in the game when full build requires you to. I think it'd be like old Haunting Guise in that regard, except that this is an item against specific teamcomps to be built in the mid game instead of an early game rush item. If the enemy has no AP, I wouldn't advise it though; probably best to go Zhonya's Hourglass and Randuin's Omen (later on) as defensive items. I agree that many AD champions get a lot of penetration in their regular builds and that defenses aren't that good against them. I think that while they may have a bit too much flat penetration in their builds right now, they definitely need to have items that give flat penetration. They do need to be good at killing squishy champions, and flat penetration is good for that. Riot could probably tweak the numbers on armor penetration or make some of the penetration items unsavory to buy together unless the champion wanted to achieve a very specific end. Also, if the Zed realizes that you've built a Quicksilver Sash, then he'd remain to kill you and blink out afterwards.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 13, 20161 votes

What I meant with the defensive items with resistances while sacrificing offensive stats was that getting a Zhonyas or Rylais gives you resistances, but also gives you power, so you're getting the best of both.

If you want resistances, or both armor and magic resist, then you have to grab the heavy tank items which only gives health and armor/magic resist, and no AP or anything for mages.

If you buy a Banshee's Veil, or QSS, then you're getting resistances for a CC AP lane opponent, but what about the AD opponents? In order to get any resistances for them, you need to grab RoA to become beefier against their burst, but without armor, it doesn't do anything against a Talon or Zed because in order to truly mitigate the damage. You need armor.

While AD champions can buy a Maw of Malmortius or Mercurial Scimitar for magic resist, and still get a good amount of AD.

I mean, you could pick up a Frozen Heart to give yourself armor and mana, but again, you're sacrificing gold and an item slot for a defensive item that could've given you a bit of AP in the process.

The tenacity point you made, very true. Stat checks have been something that Riot said they want to move away from, because stat checks aren't something that can be gauged by skill, but just by being confident in the fact you have enough stats from items to fight your opponent.

Tenacity is no exception, because that is something that you don't realize until you look at their items. Then it becomes apparent why they only stayed stun for like 1 second when your stun value is actually 3 seconds.

I do agree, they need an AP QSS item, because AD champs have way too much in item defense in terms of magic resistance, I don't think they have a ton of armor items, but the AD magic resist items might be a bit too much.

AeszarckFeb 13, 20161 votes

Okay, I understand your point now. Mages only have Zhonya's Hourglass for armor if they want to keep their ability power at acceptable levels for the early and middle game, whereas AD champions get both Maw of Malmortius and Mercurial Scimitar if they feel threatened by their AP lane opponent, and can also get enough armor penetration in their normal builds to basically negate the bonus armor from Zhonya's Hourglass, while mages' penetration items are situational with the exception of Sorcerer's Shoes, which doesn't give much penetration, and Void Staff, which is built to counter magic resist and slows down most builds.

I'm not sure if mages need more penetration, but I think that some penetration could be removed out of AD users' builds. I'm not sure how much, but I think that if an AD user is trying to get a lot of penetration, then the AD user should pierce through a singular armor item (Zhonya's Hourglass), but if the AD user is not focusing on penetration, then armor should mitigate some of the AD user's damage. Because penetration comes free with assassin builds, they don't need to focus on penetration because they're automatically getting it in their builds. I think this is what Riot is trying to fix with assassin itemization. Once they get some items that don't give assassins free penetration but still synergize very well with assassins, assassins will need to make meaningful choices on whether they want penetration or the assassin items.

Also, giving mages more armor options to deal with AD will hurt AD casters and might force them out of the middle lane meta, which I don't think is a good thing - I think they help make middle lane interesting. (Talking about champions like Varus, Jayce, Quinn, and Ezreal.) Because they often suffer the same problems that mages do against assassins but don't get any armor in their early core builds, they'll struggle even more against an AD assassin that is winning. They can get a Quicksilver Sash and not have to sell it because they can upgrade it, but I'm not sure if that's a balanced tradeoff.

If Riot made an AP Quicksilver Sash upgrade, it would need to be made an unsavory combination with Zhonya's Hourglass because of the power of both actives in combination. Quicksilver Sash and Zhonya's Hourglass is fine in my opinion because Quicksilver Sash has extremely clear tradeoffs (barely any combat stats compared to every other finished item), but I can't think of any way to make it a poor tradeoff with Zhonya's Hourglass since both would be strong AP items that give different resistances and amazing actives. Like, marksmen can build Zhonya's Hourglass in some situations and profit because they really need the active and Mercurial Scimitar isn't the right item for the job. However, a marksman would rarely opt for both because there are a ton of other really inviting item choices to make. If, however, Zhonya's Hourglass was given an AD equivalent, marksmen would have much more reason to buy the item, and more reason to chain it together with Mercurial Scimitar to become ridiculously slippery. I think that if we made a AP Quicksilver Sash upgrade, then the item would need to be made extremely carefully so to not make coupling it with Zhonya's Hourglass an attractive build path. Either that, or make other mage items feel really impactful and unique so that mages will want to build those too.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 10, 20167 votes

item 3050 hue

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 20166 votes

If Zeke's had it's passive removed and replaced with some additional stats, or one actually useful for a solo lane mage, yeah, something like that would be OK.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 10, 20161 votes

The passive can conditionally buff your AP by 20% in post laning, so as a 2nd AP/armor after Zhonya's items not the worst thing you could buy.

Also Seekers into health items is viable choice as well since item 3027 item 3116 are both very good items currently.

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 20162 votes

I dare to disagree - champions who do good with RoA + Zhonya combo all have terrible winrates, except for Morgana. Part of a problem with Seekers -> HP is the same as with Zhonya's itself - too much time until it get's strong, and than you need to build this terrible Zhonya's anyways.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 10, 20161 votes

Malzahar Annie both have 52+% win rate in plat+ and do that combo.

Lissandra does it and I wouldn't call her win rate terrible.

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 20162 votes

All these champs have instant disable allowing them to survive early assassination attempts with poor items, until they get ROA and Zhonya's online.

And Lissandra winrate is still bad, just like Kennen Swain Karthus Kassadin and others users of this combo.

BiscuitWitchFeb 10, 20165 votes

wait kennen builds roa since when hwat

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 20162 votes

Yeah, my bad.

CatastropFeb 10, 20162 votes

All of which are Anti-Assassins champion.

NichtHurzFeb 10, 20166 votes

I'd love to see something new as AP/Armor item. I always hated Zhonya's, I don't like the stasis and how the item works but if I struggle against AD midlaners I've got no choice but buying Zhonya's or...killing them faster than they kill me (haha). There are only very few AP champs Akali Chogath Diana Ekko KogMaw Ryze Vladimir (on some of those it really depends on your overall playstyle) which can buy other armor items without wasting tons of gold and power. AD champs, even assassins, can still buy purely defensive items without rendering themselves useless by doing so.

PennsFeb 10, 20164 votes

Once upon a time I built every flat armor pen item in the game for 6450 gold + I took precision I had 38 armor pen at level 18. item 3191 gives 40 kek

Zero Skill TankFeb 10, 201615 votes

The idea behind Seeker's introduction was to give mages small increments of armor until they are able to get to Zhonya's. After nerfs though gold gap between Seeker's and Zhonya's is 2300 - nearly a complete Morellonomicon. Zhonya is worse than ever, and again useless until completion, even more so thanks to new flat armor penetration options.

It needs to be replaced with some item that's less oppressive to assassins, so it can be allowed to be actually worth it for mages.