What if Critical Strike only applied to bonus armor/health, making it more effective against tanks

AquariusGine·Apr 2, 2018·40 votes·2,303 views

like % bonus armor pen

This allows ADC's to :

Not burst squishies and assassins Have predictable consistent damage per second Still be effective against tanks Not depend on RNG luck ( for the sake of both sides)

In addition, Riot can tune how different ADCs scale more consistently and they can also come out with more interesting utility-based ADCs that don't overshadow other ADCs. Right now, ADC's do so much damage Riot can't afford to give them any more fun mechanics/ utility because it'll break em.

I know what some of you are thinking; ADCs are already bursting tanks. The thing is, both are currently overtuned. With this change, I think it will bring more balance to the game.

http://apollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/1429493928748/LeagueRoles2.jpg

75 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarApr 2, 20188 votes

It's been suggested (once by me, and I wasn't the first), and I'm still in love with the idea. They would make my day if they did this to itemization in the midseason or next preseason. I think it would really do wonders for game health and help break open the meta a little bit more.

Right now, adcs are just too mandatory for objective control; Riot is talking about opening up the bot lane to allow other people to fit there, but I don' think that will do squat, tbh, because you still need an adc for your team comp. And they still hyper-scale with items, so keeping them in the lane with the support is optimal.

In order to change the mandatory nature of adcs, you need them to be a specific pick in the graphic you showed in your thumbnail; they should be counters to tanks, and they can't get all that extra damage to squishies and objectives. Until that changes, they'll be more or less mandatory imo.

Pika FoxApr 2, 20181 votes

ADCs function really well midlane, and beat out most matchups. The only reason they dont go mid is because theyre not good roamers, and mages do better with levels.

ModKnightsKemplarApr 2, 20183 votes

Right. If having two adcs was extremely good (and sometimes it is), you do see them mid lane (hello, Lucian). I think, if anything, that's just more evidence that they have too much agency in the game compared to other roles. When was the last time you saw a mage mid and bot lane? Not very often.

There are reasons you need a marksman on your team (objective control, tank busting). You simply can't say the same for mages imo.

Z3SleeperApr 3, 20181 votes

Link to yours? I just haven't seen a crit -> armor pen suggestion that really clicked with me yet.

ModKnightsKemplarApr 3, 20181 votes

ooh... finding it would be a challenge.

But I didn't get very specific with numbers. I think it should be tied to armor pen, specifically, but I think there are a myriad of ways to implement that. Without going into testing, I think it's hard for me to come up with a solid proposal (with numbers) that I could fall in love with.

Dead flag bluesApr 2, 20186 votes

Hmm bad idea, since it would make tanks irrelevant. Tanks already struggle to survive against champs like Vayne KogMaw (who are indeed designed to destroy tanks) and item 3036 item 3153 are still a thing. Adding more "weakness" to tanks would only make them irrelevant. Best idea is reducing the crit bonus damage from item 3031 by 20% (toning it down to 30%), making each zeal item having 20% crit instead (and maybe toning down the movement speed too), aand not making RFC + Shiv proc together (unique passive)

JustuoApr 2, 20187 votes

I think you completely missed what the OP was trying to say. Kog'maw and vayne can still have their % health damage but their base damage can be lowered to compensate. Changing how crit works means changing the game on a fundamental level. It's not going to make tanks irrelevant, it's just going to allow riot to lower tanks' damage. ADC's builds will still be effective at killing tanks, but at the same time, not instant BURST squishies

FurriesAreHotApr 2, 20184 votes

Wouldn't that just blur the line between a pure anti tank and a normal ADC?

Velzard of KozApr 2, 20182 votes

Normal ADC should naturally be effective against tank due to sustained damage. What they want is each ADC being focused on that aspect like anti-tankers already are. So yes, it would, as it maybe should. The question is whether ADC specializations allowing them to cover more roles (drain-tank bruiser in Graves, poker in Varus, caster in Lucian, burster in Miss Fortune, assassin with target access in Quinn, anti-tank sustained dmg in Kog...) is a good thing supporting diversity or the reason why ADCs seem to be spoiled to many people.

Riot said already before they don't want to divide Marksmen into subclasses as they find them individually diverse, they even keep the trend with recently Kai'Sa being able to cover role of caster, assasin and marksman based on what she builds (although whether she can do so equally effectively or have always the best path is another question).

Some people simply may not like the idea of trying to make Marksman more than class - simply ranged versions of the other classes. Some people may like them having specific focus like other classes have.

LordGeovanniApr 3, 20182 votes

DUE TO SUSTAINED DAMAGE. Adcs are not tank supposed to be tank shredders. They are supposed to out put sustained damage into a fight from long range while playing back. Tanks are not supposed to die Fast. Riot just packs so much garbage on to every adc or champion they decide they want to be a meta defining damage dealer that they have strengths and the supposed weakness to that strength gets covered by something else in their kit until and so on until there are no weakness

CoolKnightSTApr 2, 20184 votes

A change like that would actually be a great idea to tone down the tank problem and to ballance out the current %health damage items in the game. Personally I would suggest to limit it to bonus health so tanks can still be tanks by stacking armor and make item 3035 an more needed option in their builds.

KanzlerApr 2, 20183 votes

Why shouldnt they be able to kill squishies?

ModKnightsKemplarApr 2, 201811 votes

They shouldn't be able to burst squishies. There isn't a problem with having a glass cannon, necessarily, but it's pretty problematic when the 100% crit adc can burst almost as well as a mage. In that scenario, why ever have a mage?

We aren't quite on that level yet, but we're close. Lucian mid is a viable-ish pick for a reason. It's because marksman simply do more for the team than a mage (or least have in the past). Crit is the problem, imo, because it's just raw damage in a way that isn't healthy for the game.

KanzlerApr 2, 20182 votes

Because mages are an aoe+utility threat. They have a different niche and peak earlier. Adc are single target threats.

SqueyApr 2, 20186 votes

If they buy hurricane then they are an aoe threat. Also alot of adc's have the same amount of utility as most mid laners. Also some adc's peak with 1 item while most peak with 2. Alot of mages need 2 to hit a decent powespike so really they are the same.

The niche is mages are meant to kill squishies and be an ap and aoe threat. Adc's are meant to kill tanks while also being an ad and dps threat.

Lord of MathApr 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because mages are an aoe+utility threat. They have a different niche and peak earlier. Adc are single target threats.

Ryze

KanzlerApr 3, 20181 votes

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Does ryze not have a utility ult and a snare on his w? Does he not have great wave clear through his flux multi target?

Lord of MathApr 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Does ryze not have a utility ult and a snare on his w? Does he not have great wave clear through his flux multi target?

You said aoe and utility, not waveclear and mobility.

KanzlerApr 3, 20181 votes

yikes. His ult moves entire teams. I'm pretty sure that's utility.

It's hilarious how you're trying to argue that mages dont bring anything to the team besides damage.

Lord of MathApr 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

yikes. His ult moves entire teams. I'm pretty sure that's utility.

It's hilarious how you're trying to argue that mages dont bring anything to the team besides damage.

It is hilarious how you are putting words into my mouth.

Shukr4nApr 2, 20182 votes

What if crit become unique passive? O What if crit cap at 50%?

saltranApr 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

What if crit become unique passive? O What if crit cap at 50%?

If Crit had a 50% cap it will be even more coinflip than normal builds right now that have 70& with ER-IE-Zeal or 80% with IE-Zeal-Zeal or even with 100% in deep lategame.

Do ppl really want more rng?

Shukr4nApr 2, 20181 votes

do u mean that midgame when u can have 40-60% crit chance we should ALL afk farm until crit chance go over 60% to not be RNG?

i didnt know this.

so when a 80% crit adc doesnt crit for 3-4 hits we should remake because RNG ruined it all?

i really dont get in which way and at what cost sometimes players would change stuff they state to not be right

"game is already under RNG, but if we lower the % suddenly RNG raise and it s bad"

ok Rammus

saltranApr 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

do u mean that midgame when u can have 40-60% crit chance we should ALL afk farm until crit chance go over 60% to not be RNG?

i didnt know this.

so when a 80% crit adc doesnt crit for 3-4 hits we should remake because RNG ruined it all?

i really dont get in which way and at what cost sometimes players would change stuff they state to not be right

"game is already under RNG, but if we lower the % suddenly RNG raise and it s bad"

ok

What are you talking about going afk?

I just pointed that ppl complain about how coinflip crit can be. And if you cap crit at 50% you are forcing it to always be on the statistically most coinflip state it can be, which is 50%.

The Yetii RiderApr 2, 20182 votes

The issue there is that marksmen should be able to kill everyone. They are the late game damage source. If the marksmen only kills tanks, and the mage has already fallen off, then how do you end late game situations?

Pika FoxApr 2, 20181 votes

Why wouldnt you want an adc to burst an assassin? The assassin has tools to engage someone who is out solo and mispositioned before they can fight back. If the ADC then bursts the assassin, the assassin already played poorly and deserves the death before they can get CDs back up.

HaIlMonitorApr 2, 20183 votes

Most ADC's that are always meta have 3 things

A self peel Some sort of CC and unless they are by themselves a entire other role dedicated to protecting them.

Assassins and mages both have long ass cool downs, are squishy, and have to outplay 2 people to secure a kill on an ADC. Its actually heavily favored for the ADC and they dont seem to outplay anyone. I am sure you have seen the video's of them draintanking...

Pika FoxApr 2, 20183 votes

Play better then? Like, if youre trying to kill an ADC next to their support as an assassin, youre doing it wrong. The ADC isnt out of position, and you fucked up. Mages will still 100-0 them next to the support though via CC. If you didnt, you engaged at a poor time.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 3, 20182 votes

Assassins shouldn't be able to 1v2 and he didn't say anything like that. But there have been times where you engage on them and they're alone, in a bad position which is most of their skill expression. And they 1v1 you anyway without having to escape or get help. I'm not saying that relates to the current discussion, just trying to explain what he is saying

Pika FoxApr 3, 20181 votes

An ADC isnt going to 1v1 an assassin unless either the assassin plays horribly, steps over a ward and loses the surprise engage, or is underfed. Its just not going to happen. An assassin does too much damage from range or with ability to close without taking damage too quickly for an ADC to out damage them.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 4, 20181 votes

Generally yeah but it does happen more often than it should. A Vayne can outplay you with her ult.. even if it doesn't feel like an outplay since you can't target her but she can target you. A Tristana can ult you and kite the absolute hell out of you if you try to chase. Ezreal is pretty good at kiting too, but he's kind of designed for it, I guess.

Mobility and kiting is infuriating for an assassin.

Pika FoxApr 4, 20181 votes

Vayne is an assassin ADC who is not out of position if shes alone and you bring 1 person to kill her. Shes not a target you assassinate, shes someone you teamfight against (vayne's weaknesses are the same as an assassins, she hates teamfights)

Trist can ult you away, then you blew her ult and back off. You dont follow her after your mobility is down.

Ezreal.... Ezreal is just gunna die. He has nothing that will save him vs an assassin, he doesnt have enough peel and hes a low damage ADC.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 4, 20181 votes

Vayne: Late game yes. Mid game eh. She is an assassin ADC, but I think if one assassin gets the jump on you, you should be at the disadvantage. But like I said Vayne can be an exception, sure.

Trist: That's lame. Her ult has a 2 minute CD at rank one, which is a loooot. But it's a huge get out of jail free card. Unless she's gonna run away and then get caught out again in the next 100 seconds, you can't really get her

Ezreal: Can E and kite away with Q IBG depending on the assassin, or E through a wall. But yeah he prob is gonna die. Honestly I think this is the most mobility and peel an ADC should have. Imagine if his ult knocked you back lol.

Anyway, mid game, if an ADC is caught out they should be liable to be assassinated.

Pika FoxApr 4, 20181 votes

Trist's R is a massive CD. If you force her to blow that+flash, youve won. You dont need to chase or anything. Flash and her Ult are as good as a kill. Your CDs will be up sooner, and now they cant fight nearly as well. You can win a teamfight easily, because an assassin is already worth far less than an ADC (assassins are virtually worthless in a teamfight), and Trists biggest advantage is used up.

Ez can kite, but hes only really good at kiting against limited mobility champs. Assassins generally have the tools to bypass anything ez can realistically kite; eitehr because he cant see them to kite them properly, or they have enough mobility that his just wont do anything.

LordGeovanniApr 3, 20181 votes

Assassins and mages are supposed to have long ass cooldowns I dont agree at all that either have long cooldowns.

HaIlMonitorApr 3, 20181 votes

4 seconds in long when an ADC attacks you 10 times before your main damage ability is back off of CD. If they crit for 500 each auto (which is low vs a squishy btw) they will still over kill most mages and assassins by 3k damage.

Pika FoxApr 3, 20181 votes

Sure, but the mage will kill them long before the ADC even gets 3 autos off. Most of the time theyll get exactly 0 off before their rotation is over.

LordGeovanniApr 6, 20181 votes

This is dumbness Adcs Take most of they hp in damage when mages do damage and mages kite while their spells are on cooldown. Mages are not compareable to adcs and should not be comareable to what Adcs are now as adcs shouldnt even be there. Most mages are supposed to be ranged utility Burst mages are supposed to be small risky roles with very long downtimes but riot and their 'dont want a useless champion when the fall behind' But the whole fighter class and 80% of tanks are useless unless they not only stomp their lane but every one of the enemies champions is being stomped if that is the case its just a stomp and you could have picked any other class there

HaIlMonitorApr 6, 20181 votes

You cant "kite" autos. Thats the point, if mages and assassins cant burst ADC's which right now its impossible outside of being really fed, or they are by themselves and don't have a true way to duel them. Like Vayne and a few other adc's can just flat out duel anyone so it really doesn't matter if they are by themselves or not. The point is ADC's can duel anyone at any time after they get 2 or 3 items, and its not okay for the only mid game and late game person to be one of the 5 players.

LordGeovanniApr 6, 20181 votes

You should not be able to 1 shot burst Adcs Maybe if you payed with expensive spells on a low mana pool with long cooldowns But riot makes sure you want nothing for mana or cooldown. You also shouldnt be able to duel adcs straight up you should have to burst them then come back to finish them. But that isnt likely because of how much damage adcs put out both adcs and mages do too much damage for not much down time or counter play to them because they never have to expose themselves when they want to do damage. But they do so much so fast. You can 100% kite auto attacks. Use your spells and run out of their range until enough of your spells come back to fight again.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 3, 20181 votes

Hrmm. I really like that but I haven't super thought it all out. Basically, against a squishy build lethality. Against a tank build crit. No more level 1 tryndamere cheese. Or level 5 fights that you lose only because their 10% crit killed you.

I think crit should just work like Ashe's passive. I really, really, really like that. The longer you attack someone, the more damage you do based on your crit. That basically only works how crit is intended to work, because a squishy is gonna die very quickly and you won't get to use all your crit anyway. But a tank will take awhile to chip down and you get the full value of your crit.

Champion SkinApr 3, 20181 votes

I think crit should just work like Ashe's passive. I really, really, really like that. The longer you attack someone, the more damage you do based on your crit.

That's not how ashe passive works? Ashe passive is bonus AA damage is always the same and only depends on if the target is affected by her passive (also Ashe can't crit on Olaf/Master Yi with ult or targets with Morgana black shield)

The bonus damage is +1% (1.5% with IE) per 1% crit (which is the average damage increase of crit) and an additional +10%

The +10% damage is of course a bonus in the early game but it is actually a downside in the late game when considering that the first attack doesn't crit because with 100% crit then you need 10 or 15 attacks to make up for losing the crit on the first attack

Supreme Senpai69Apr 3, 20181 votes

Sorry, I hadn't slept yet. But yes, I think that's how it should work anyway.

TeCoolMageApr 3, 20181 votes

Late game critical strike serves an anti tank function but early game it serves to add more variation in the flawed-by-design ADC v ADC fights which are inherently solved.

Completely agree otherwise that crit needs changing

DokkaebiApr 3, 20181 votes

Adcs can already 1-shot tanks when ahead. I'd be scared to see them be even more effective against them

Acheron16Apr 3, 20181 votes

People would just buy straight AD and Penetration, leaving crit for last, if they buy it at all since they would just buy Black Cleaver+Last Whisper+Bortk to counter tanks if they need to.

GelmousApr 3, 20181 votes

Still be effective against tanks

still effective ? tanks are unkillable how are adc effective against them?

PhantomPranksterApr 4, 20181 votes

YES

HyquiemApr 4, 20181 votes

As I see it now the player base gave Riot the idea of giving bruisers true damage ( I AINT TAKING CREDIT FOR THAT IDEA B/C I REMEMBER SYAING GIVE EM TRUE DAMAGE) then now focusing on decreasing adc damage, though it ruffle needed mages need more love then spamming spells and so the idea of Ap crit remains to be realistic since flat pen ap isn’t so strong...

MizayaApr 4, 20181 votes

Not a fan of this--but then again you don't provide much specifics. I can only go off of what you seem to be saying.

Is this going to promote diversification within the ADC class? Or does it just gut their raw DPS, which isn't unprecedentedly high atm anyways (more like statikk shiv & snowballing being more common among other things,).

Another thing: This heavily, heavily reduces the value of tanks. What is a tank? Tanks are supposed to soak up damage that would otherwise be going to priority targets. So, you might argue that yes, this change intends for tanks to still take the same amount of damage, but since raw DPS is down so much, the value of armor will just go off the cliff, since tanks still take the same amount while a squishy takes so much less. And also there is just a lot less damage to be tanked. The entire premise of front-to-back teamfighting is nullified. Why would you ever build tank then? Then again, maybe people will stop building crit and tanks will become gods, who knows, it would be chaos, and certainly many balance problems would arise.

Here's my solution, or rather what I would like to see. Nerf the ranged crit multiplier. Something like 1.5x down from 2x or whatever. This removes some power from the items, which I think should be removed because items constitute too much of an ADCs power budget, thus suppressing the ability for ADCs to have their own "identity". Riot can then add unique crit ratios to their kits that don't all have to do with DPS. So we're taking crit's value out of items alone and giving it to individual kits.