ADC's should have sustained damage, not burst

AquariusGine·Nov 29, 2018·86 votes·18,072 views

We've been through this before. Nobody liked it. When botlane has too much influence the game becomes shit for everyone else.

So for the love of god please don't repeat this mistake again.

95 Comments

Killer of Night9Nov 29, 201843 votes

Balance them in a one-shot burst meta as sustained dealer is impossible. If damage across the game is lower, sustained carry has way more agency in the game without break the game. Riot game somehow like this because "it's fun to watch" but see over and over and over I get tired (as you I suppose) to watch no counterplay everywhere. If riot wanted sustained carry working, they has to nerf the dmg across the game so they have more chance to survive and deal costant dps.

Beast BrawlerNov 29, 201814 votes

That's why nobody with at least half a brain wants a one-shot burst meta, we want a more strategical and tactical game, not the dark harvest shit we had last week and this week even.

LTK KoRoDec 1, 20181 votes

The problem is, when nothing is capable of one shotting or assassinating someone (these phrases mean the same thing) then the ADC become the default, and sometimes the only damage dealer.

Finding the line between oneshot meta and "ADCs and tanks only are relevant" meta is pretty hard.

As a jungle player, who likes bruisers and tanks, i'd rather stay in current meta, due to every lane having impact, and a lot of picks being viable, but i understand that not everyone might like current state of the game.

Personally i think ADCs deserve small DEFENSIVE base stats buffs and itemization change, but without the cancerours 250% dmg crits coming back, without the old Stattik+RFC synergy, without the 400dmg stattik crits and without 130% gold efficient Zeal items.

Something NEEDS to be done about the meta, but i don't think that anyone sane believes that current meta is worse than ardent and pre 8.11 meta (outside of ADCs who ofc enjoyed being the strongest role in the game).

Daddy AntsDec 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T12:46:59.329+0000)

The problem is, when nothing is capable of one shotting or assassinating someone (these phrases mean the same thing) then the ADC become the default, and sometimes the only damage dealer.

Finding the line between oneshot meta and "ADCs and tanks only are relevant" meta is pretty hard.

As a jungle player, who likes bruisers and tanks, i'd rather stay in current meta, due to every lane having impact, and a lot of picks being viable, but i understand that not everyone might like current state of the game.

Personally i think ADCs deserve small DEFENSIVE base stats buffs and itemization change, but without the cancerours 250% dmg crits coming back, without the old Stattik+RFC synergy, without the 400dmg stattik crits and without 130% gold efficient Zeal items.

Something NEEDS to be done about the meta, but i don't think that anyone sane believes that current meta is worse than ardent and pre 8.11 meta (outside of ADCs who ofc enjoyed being the strongest role in the game).

Statikk RFC synergy is still in the game.

Statikk's damage was nerfed in 8.6.

It's just no one builds Dogshit Shiv anymore.

LTK KoRoDec 1, 20181 votes

And as we realized during s8 spring, Statikk damage was rightfully nerfed.

Could it use some buffs? Maybe. Can it go to pre 8.11 state? Hell no

Daddy AntsDec 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-01T13:28:33.859+0000)

And as we realized during s8 spring, Statikk damage was rightfully nerfed.

Could it use some buffs? Maybe. Can it go to pre 8.11 state? Hell no

I think Shiv should go back to pre 8.11 BUT remove it's Synergy with Rapidfire Cannon.

Beast BrawlerDec 1, 20181 votes

Well first of all we need better AP itemization, because rn everyone builds the same couple of items, and I would really like items for the more niche champions, like Mordekaiser and Vladimir.

Assassins should have the power be in their kit, and then also around 40% of the power in their items, duskblade is something I don't like but I think if we remove the ward killing/finding function it'll be fine. Assassins wouldn't be able to instantly delete carries, because that's toxic, but they would also be able to kill them in a matter of seconds. When fed they would probably be able to oneshot adcs or squishy mages or supports, but not if they're even or behind.

EyesOfTheFoxNov 29, 201811 votes

The way Riot has redesigned the game to end before every marksman can even scale IS a problem. No marksman players right now are calling for more damage, we are calling for scaling and build paths that reflect the current pace of the game.

AhrisNov 29, 20186 votes

{quoted}

The way Riot has redesigned the game to end before every marksman can even scale IS a problem. No marksman players right now are calling for more damage, we are calling for scaling and build paths that reflect the current pace of the game.

That is a BUFF to damage. Lol. May not be for late but it is buff for early/mid where marksman should be garbsge.

What Marksman need is their lategame gutted and give them early power.

Dr DogNov 29, 201810 votes

adcs need more defensive options to be dps based, having no burst AND being the most squishy roles in the game is a problem

AhrisNov 29, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-29T15:42:41.113+0000)

adcs need more defensive options to be dps based, having no burst AND being the most squishy roles in the game is a problem

Riot needs to lower their damage then

Dr DogNov 29, 20186 votes

thats just a given in general, not just for the adc problem tbh

PhieldworkerNov 29, 20189 votes

Bot lane is kinda meh right now. They can carry but they aren’t the “win lane win game” they used to be. I’ve been carrying games from mid lane more lately. Even if they have a fed adc if I can katarina them they can’t do much. Right now damage is too bursty for sustain adcs

Critmaster GarenNov 29, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Bot lane is kinda meh right now. They can carry but they aren’t the “win lane win game” they used to be.

are you implying this should have ever been the case?

why shouldnt other lanes supposed to have agency?

PhieldworkerNov 29, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-29T17:34:33.729+0000)

are you implying this should have ever been the case?

why shouldnt other lanes supposed to have agency?

I’m not Implying anything. Just saying bot lane isn’t as strong as op makes it sound.

MorganFreemanBotNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Bot lane is kinda meh right now. They can carry but they aren’t the “win lane win game” they used to be. I’ve been carrying games from mid lane more lately. Even if they have a fed adc if I can katarina them they can’t do much. Right now damage is too bursty for sustain adcs

And that's fine. That's actually how ADC's are supposed to, conceptually, work.

ADCs were never supposed to be ticking time bombs which blew everything away once they got an item or two. They're supposed to be the dudes who keep games from going forever. The strongest people on the map at full build, because of how they scale, but weaker at all other stages; with their niche being their constant damage, and their ability to chunk towers.

Being "carries" means they're supposed to BE carried. If all you need is to make it out of lane phase, and then you smash everything on the map with monstrous scaling, you're not a fucking carry.

MLDzXnRRRNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And that's fine. That's actually how ADC's are supposed to, conceptually, work.

ADCs were never supposed to be ticking time bombs which blew everything away once they got an item or two. They're supposed to be the dudes who keep games from going forever. The strongest people on the map at full build, because of how they scale, but weaker at all other stages; with their niche being their constant damage, and their ability to chunk towers.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's so not true - ADCs naturally lane win vs ranged mages, because mage goes oom, ADC can stay in lane forever and take tower when mage recalls. Vs melee - ADC again wins.

This is when both players are good. It's up to jungler to decide the lane with ganks. You can't even farm vs some of the more annoying ranged champions with melees, if the jungler is not nearby to gank or scare for a little the ranged champ away from you.

It doesn't matter that the ADC has less armor/mr per lvl and less hp in base stats, because you are never supposed to manfight with them... Considering that even full tank builds get melted in seconds, facetanking anything in the game is a bad strategy to win.

We have the most oppressive (at least early game) class scaling the hardest (because autos can't miss). Mages with a burst are potentially stronger midgame, but you can dodge their damage, so they are sitting ducks, ready to be dunked. If ADCs had some kind of insane damage even midgame too, they would be beyond broken.

Frog goes mooNov 30, 20183 votes

mages actually win vs ad's. That's why mages go mid lane. If adc's won against mages, we would be seeing more of them mid lane.

MLDzXnRRRNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

mages actually win vs ad's. That's why mages go mid lane. If adc's won against mages, we would be seeing more of them mid lane.

Not in a 1v1 (you are forgetting that this game is 5v5, it's easier to gank and dive someone that won't stun/snare you as you approach)... The main reason why we don't see DPS champions mid - most of them have poor waveclear and can't defend towers alone, if they have to. Also, you don't bring utility to your team. I guess Sivir (with melees - helping to initiate) and Ashe have some use for the team, but the rest are meh. There is no reason to have them on their team. Most of them also lack mobility, so they can't gank like assassins and a hard countered by the typical Zed/Yasuo etc pick that I see every game.

Frog goes mooNov 30, 20181 votes

If we're speaking about league of legends. Please always assume I'm referring to laning in a 5v5 situation. I've seen 1v1 custom games and 1v1's at certain events, but those make up about like .01 amount of games played.

saltranNov 29, 20188 votes

Meddler literally wrote a single sentence about talking about marksmans on friday at the end of a Gameplay Thoughts and the Gameplay Boards are already picking up the pitchforks.

Oh boy, this will be funny regardless of what he says tomorrow.

SociopathFriendNov 30, 20182 votes

Implying that isn't the standard response to anything when the Boards are involved.

StraconyNov 29, 20188 votes

I believe as a rule, you are right. It should be sustained damage but specific ADC's should have a bit of burst so they don't all do the same job (we all know were that leads) Lucian MissFortune Corki Jhin

One of the big problems we have today is that damage has got ridiculously high, this not only creates the obvious but it really just places characters into 2 classes. And that is Sustained vs Burst. Before there was a lot more categories to place characters in and this made the game as a whole more interesting. (but apparently riot thinks using your brain is bad so they simplified everything)

Galio Used to be the anti mage tank Diana Used to be more of an AP bruiser. AP bruiser? whats that? Malphite Used to be an Anti-melee tank... not just an walking R button that can delete multiple squishies and reduce others to 25% hp. DrMundo used to be a solid block of HP and literally went where he fucking wanted. He didn't have a lot of damage because he was more of a pest than a walking wall that will 3 shot squishies before he himself gets 100-0 in 2 seconds instead of 0.5.

...i could go on... i could even mention that the Dodge stat was not actually that bad.... made Jax a bit interesting.

ParoeNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I believe as a rule, you are right. It should be sustained damage but specific ADC's should have a bit of burst so they don't all do the same job (we all know were that leads)

One of the big problems we have today is that damage has got ridiculously high, this not only creates the obvious but it really just places characters into 2 classes. And that is Sustained vs Burst. Before there was a lot more categories to place characters in and this made the game as a whole more interesting. (but apparently riot thinks using your brain is bad so they simplified everything)

Used to be the anti mage tank Used to be more of an AP bruiser. AP bruiser? whats that? Used to be an Anti-melee tank... not just an walking R button that can delete multiple squishies and reduce others to 25% hp. used to be a solid block of HP and literally went where he fucking wanted. He didn't have a lot of damage because he was more of a pest than a walking wall that will 3 shot squishies before he himself gets 100-0 in 2 seconds instead of 0.5.

...i could go on... i could even mention that the Dodge stat was not actually that bad.... made Jax a bit interesting.

But... Mundo, diana, and malphite havent gotten changes.

ALso dodge was originally (and poorly) implemented as a direct counter to crit, since crit was SO STRONG. But dodge proved the greater of the two evils, so crit has remained.

Meep ManNov 30, 20181 votes

Dodge was never intended to be a counter to crit what? It was just a counter to basic attack reliant champions in general, not just crit.

ParoeNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Dodge was never intended to be a counter to crit what? It was just a counter to basic attack reliant champions in general, not just crit.

As far as i remember, crit was implemented because marksmen mains whined that they didnt do as much damage as mages but was so strong that melee champions simply couldnt function, so they added dodge to counter crit.

Iota ThetaNov 30, 20182 votes

Used to be an Anti-melee tank... not just an walking R button that can delete multiple squishies and reduce others to 25% hp.

Malphite actully didn’t have any changes to make him a walking R button, he was always that way. His R alwaysnhad a 100% AP ratio, which a subset of his players took advantage of because full AP can get close to or above a 1k damage ult.

If anything, Riot tried to increase his anti-melee/AD thing by adjusting how his W passive works, as well as changed W to begin with to have the bonus armor as a passive and the splash damage as the active instead of the other way around, and reduced AP ratios on his W and E and increased armor ratios on those abilities. R is the only thing they haven’t touched in terms of damage in a long time.

Actually, looking through his history, his ultimate’s damage was never touched since release, only bugfixes, some tweaks to how it works, stun duration, range, CD. No damage changes ever.

nGioNov 30, 20185 votes

The decline of ADCs has a lot to do with their primary function being removed. When was the last time that you saw a tank in the jungle? Why on earth would someone play one top? ADCs were traditionally there to melt down tanks, but tanks aren't being played anymore, because everyone can melt them down. Buffing ADCs to compete with the 1 shot meta, just makes them ranged assassins, and also further buries tanks into the shit zone of solo Q. Tanks being viable gives life to ADC purpose. This shit meta of 'stun, dogpile, get baron, win' doesn't really require tanks or ADCs.

ADCs aren't bad, their prey has just gone extinct.

JackMcSnipeyzNov 29, 20184 votes

Nobody is asking for marksmen to burst (except the ones who should like Jhin and Draven) they are asking to be relevent not only in the last 5 minutes of the game.

Beast BrawlerNov 29, 20182 votes

But we know Riot will misinterpret that, so we need to be very specific.

Handy Sandy Nov 29, 20183 votes

I haven't heard of any champion having sustained damage in a way that isnt bps

Sustained damage doesn't work in this game, because of the way cc works, shields, heals etc nobody is going to sit there and let you auto them a bunch of times. You'll just die.

Yeah theres asol, karthus, ap morgana, corki, and cassiopeia who also "have" sustained damage, but they're only ever viable because they have burst damage as well. Same with Yi, Yasuo, Trynd, Udyr, all of those guys.

the only REAL sustained damage that isn't bps in this game comes from tanks like Shen, maokai, amumu, but those only have sustained damage because they invest in items that let them survive in a fight, but offer no damage. You could resolve this by giving adcs more survivability, but that's just a bad idea. That's supposed to be the support's job anyway but that's a whole other topic.

3TWarriorNov 30, 20182 votes

swain did until they made him crazy and then reworked him

Handy Sandy Nov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

swain did until they made him crazy and then reworked him

That's why he was trash tier.

3TWarriorNov 30, 20181 votes

he wasn't in top lane. The only thing he had wrong was other mages out-ranged him

Handy Sandy Nov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

he wasn't in top lane. The only thing he had wrong was other mages out-ranged him

Maybe he was pretty strong, I just never saw him at all. I think the success of his DPS was because it was within a zone (Q) and he survived long enough to do it since he could build tanky and still do damage because of his E and R.

BLACK REALM GODNov 29, 20182 votes

Xayah Vayne Varus Twitch MissFortune Lucian KogMaw Jhin Ezreal Draven Caitlyn Ashe

have you met the cast of bottom mains?

Jinx literally the only sustain damage champ used bottom.

if you want "sustained damage" look towards fighters.

AetherArisingNov 29, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-11-29T19:05:15.313+0000)

have you met the cast of bottom mains?

literally the only sustain damage champ used bottom.

if you want "sustained damage" look towards fighters.

Kog'maw, Caitlyn, Ashe, Jinx, Tristana, i mean Kalista (tho she is a weird hybrid of dps and mini burst-execute because of her Rend mechanic), Sivir.

Those are all pretty much sustained DPS champs like ADCs should be. Xayah is more or less a hybrid DPS/Burst like kalista too, but her E is pretty decent chunk so i'm indecisive if she should go on that list or not

Dont cherry pick, my dude.

3TWarriorNov 30, 20182 votes

kogmaw actually has a decent amount of burst damage, as does caitlyn

so that leaves jinx, tristana and kalista, though one of tristana's main things is getting reset kills so... guess we're down to two and one can never be viable because she crushes top lane when she is XD

ParoeNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

kogmaw actually has a decent amount of burst damage, as does caitlyn

so that leaves jinx, tristana and kalista, though one of tristana's main things is getting reset kills so... guess we're down to two and one can never be viable because she crushes top lane when she is XD

I dont think an execute counts as burst... Or at least shouldnt count as burst.

AetherArisingNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

kogmaw actually has a decent amount of burst damage, as does caitlyn

so that leaves jinx, tristana and kalista, though one of tristana's main things is getting reset kills so... guess we're down to two and one can never be viable because she crushes top lane when she is XD

Kogmaw has like no burst at all

kog's ENTIRE purpose is just to press W and melt a team with heavy dps but takes like 40-50 mins to get to that point cait can be pretty big on chunks if you step on a trap, but she's pretty much all just autos too. fairly DPS but shiv can make anyone bursty.

3TWarriorNov 30, 20182 votes

how often do you face a kog-maw ? Q reduces resistances by 20% minimum and his abilities have basically no cast time, able to be woven into his auto attack times. I did not mention it here, but I was referring to his early game unless you have the unlikely event of getting a kog-mage

OneMustFallNov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-11-29T19:05:15.313+0000)

have you met the cast of bottom mains?

literally the only sustain damage champ used bottom.

if you want "sustained damage" look towards fighters.

Not entirely sure you know the difference between burst and sustain.

BLACK REALM GODNov 30, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Not entirely sure you know the difference between burst and sustain.

i'd say the same for you or that you dont know the champion's kits then.

there isn't a single champion on that list that doesnt deal a form of burst. typically their abilities are overpowering their auto attacks.

burst = an instance of breaking or splitting as a result of internal pressure or puncturing; an explosion.

sustain = cause to continue or be prolonged for an extended period or without interruption.

certain champs require you to explode all of your abilities onto the enemy in order to kill them. for example ezreal vayne and twitch. others require you to place and position your kit's deployables to get the damage. those would be xayah caitlyn and jhin. these are all burst tactics.

critical auto attacks are more akin to an explosion of damage since they're randomized based on the percent chance. then there's stormrazer, RPD, and statikk shiv. these attribute to more of a burst type playstyle.

the only marksmen that have genuine sustained damage are the ones that you can line up and just churn away on turrets or enemies. jinx, sivir, etc.

and it makes sense why. low hp, low mobility, and limited DOT makes for a poor pairing against actual players when damage and base mobility is so high in this game.

fighters/assassins like kayle and yi have more sustained damage than most marksmen at this point. just because they either have defenses or abilities that keep them from dying right away or they can use the items that synergize with regen and resurrection.

the league community has a bad habit of just repeating the phrases of memers and streamers without actually using critical thinking for themselves. we haven't had a decent true marksman with sustained damage since kindred and you saw what happened with her.

SlateSempaiNov 30, 20182 votes

Honestly I like the Squishy ADC feel. Its high risk high reward.

MonstermushmushNov 29, 20181 votes

Pls give me examples. I can't really think of any ADCs that "burst". Except Ezreal maybe.

ZardoNov 29, 20184 votes

Jhin Draven previously any adc who built item 3094 + item 3087

AS I LAY FEEDINGNov 30, 20181 votes

should remove rapid firecannon

Daddy AntsDec 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Top Deck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-11-30T18:23:30.776+0000)

should remove rapid firecannon

I believe it shouldn't stack with Shiv.

RFC as an item is fine, it's just the fact that it stacks with Shiv.

Winston LycanNov 30, 20181 votes

Many problems with ADCs, and because everyone wants most profit for them, this role has been a messed. I will show you how hard to balance ADC

Current ADC, with those claiming about 'too weak'. Right now, ADC has become an investment imo. If they reach the late game in about 35:00, they will be extremely OP since Stormrazor is strong in early and very-late game. However, from early game to 30:00, they are a joke. Yes, they are ADC for late game and this meta favours early game, but remember, no one can stop you from picking a Morde bot. Now, let's fix that, we have many options here.
Giving the suistained damage instead of burst: and you will repeat the Ardent meta again. Lulu, Janna, Karma, etc. will rise again and engaging support will ceased into existence. Most important, flame will rise everywhere because "I can't play Riven." @$@#@. Sorry, but that's boring.
OK, so let's just give them burst damage (like current meta, with Klepto & Harvest). Nah, complains still fly everywhere because it sounds so stupid. Have anyone realize that the champs benefit those two masteries most are the bot laning champs?
OK, give up, let's give the HYPER BURST DAMAGE! And yet, we will see again a Tristana who only need to shoot 2 times to kill 1 person. Zedd, Leblanc and Yasuo won't like it.
How about instead of giving them more damage, we give them.... more defesive capability? Honestly? Isn't Ezreal Iceborn cancer enough? You want to build Iceborn on every champs.

In the nutshell, before you complains about ADCs, telll the dev, "How you want to fix the ADC role first". Keep in mind that, no history repeat (stop telling people to play ss4 again please), no overbuffing/nerfing and everyone would love to play that (whenever they are Korean gosu who likes to farm 99% of the game or the agressive EU pros). Answer me, can you do the job? If not, then just get along with the wind and try to benefit you most! Stop complaining

P/s: main ADC. Playstyle changes many times in this season and I love that. Current champs I practice: Lucian Klepto, MF Klepto/Harvest, Karthus Harvest, Morde Harvest, Ziggs Harvest, Ezreal Klepto and Jhin Harvest. Have you master all of these champs? If not, then off to the game you go!

Sorry for a long post, there is no potato for you.

Daddy AntsDec 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Winston Lycan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6P3Jt8V,comment-id=0019,timestamp=2018-11-30T22:55:34.762+0000)

Current ADC, with those claiming about 'too weak'. Right now, ADC has become an investment imo. If they reach the late game in about 35:00, they will be extremely OP since Stormrazor is strong in early and very-late game. However, from early game to 30:00, they are a joke.

Stormrazor is not strong late game.

2 zeal items + IE is the standard Crit Marksman build.

That gives the marksman 100% crit.

Why would you need a "guaranteed" crit on 1st auto attack if you have 100% crit already?

Stormrazor is a dog shit item in the late game.