I know this has been said a thousand times but Bot lane needs to lose some power

AquariusGine·Nov 25, 2017·174 votes·5,330 views

And shift some of that influence to Top lane.

Honestly, all of this is partially our fault as well for complaining that supports felt unrewarding to play. Riot made the changes and it resulted in games being decided by whether your botlane gets autofilled or not.

Another issue is reducing the game time for more action-packed gameplay and overbuffing ADCs. This completely threw the game's balance off, along with actually strategic gameplay.

What we have now:

bruisers being crap, unless fed like hell
Winning botlane determines the outcome of the game
There is no strategic gameplay. What matters is if you pick the best snowballing champions.
If you lose lane, there is no making a comeback on lategame champions
Once a team gets a small lead, they do not have to work to keep that lead. It's easy cruising and one-sided stomping the shit out of the other team.

I know balance has never been perfect for this game but the current problems at hand make our old balance issues seem so trivial. Remember when we used to complain about Zed being too strong to lane against as a mage? Or when we complained about the facerolling Katarina and Akali? At least back then you could work as a team to stop them. Right now.. it's just one-sided stomp game after game after game.

102 Comments

SociopathFriendNov 26, 201726 votes

I'm curious how the community would ever expect the lane with a higher percentage of the team in it (ADC and Support) to not have a larger impact on the game than any other single lane?

Most posters seem to indicate the current amount of influence they have is too high (I don't quite see it myself) but I'm curious why having two strong members should inherently be so weak that they don't become a powerful factor in the game.

ModAcademy KaynNov 26, 20174 votes

Especially when one of them, the support, is the playmaker. Makes picks, helps others get kills, farms kills for themselves, it's a pretty influential role like Jungler.

A Superb VillainNov 26, 20172 votes

Jungler is just a fancy name for Damage Support.

InstaPoppyNov 26, 201712 votes

People also forget that pressuring bot as, top mid or jungle fucks the enemy twice as hard because 2 people get behind instead of 1.

PePsiLemoNNNov 26, 20174 votes

People just find something to blame tbh.

SEKAINov 26, 20175 votes

{quoted}

I'm curious how the community would ever expect the lane with a higher percentage of the team in it (ADC and Support) to not have a larger impact on the game than any other single lane?

Most posters seem to indicate the current amount of influence they have is too high (I don't quite see it myself) but I'm curious why having two strong members should inherently be so weak that they don't become a powerful factor in the game.

The point of the argument is asking Riot to

Stop curb-stomping anything that's not a ADC+Supp comp out of bot lane (which after a couple rounds we end where we are, where ADC and Supports are the indisputably most overpowered classes without equals outside of another ADC and Supp),
Allow Supports to go other lanes,
Make ADC no longer outright mandatory even in early game meta,
Actually balance ADC by stop making every single one of them hyper-scaling into your asshole (introducing sub-classes in ADC, which is the only class in the game that does not have subclasses for some reason), and learn NOT to caress them with BOTH most gold efficient and cheapest itemisation, and
Re-balance the map so there isn't as extreme of a map imbalance where most of the actions would and should take place in the lower side of the map by definition due to the immense significance of dragon control while having no alternatives of equal power in the top side of the map (especially now dragons give permanent team buffs and late-game win condition buffs, while the top side still only has Baron for late game and that in early game Rift Herald which only ever spawns once and is nowhere as impactful as dragon buffs).

(And on a side note, nerf lethality already)

Bot isn't just strong because it has 2 people there, it's strong because the game is weirdly skewed across a long period of time to make sure they will be strong, which is the problem.

SociopathFriendNov 26, 20173 votes

The point of the argument is asking Riot to:

Stop curb-stomping anything that's not a ADC+Supp comp out of bot lane (which after a couple rounds we end where we are, where ADC and Supports are the indisputably most overpowered classes without equals outside of another ADC and Supp),

Allow Supports to go other lanes,

Make ADC no longer outright mandatory even in early game meta,

Actually balance ADC by stop making every single one of them hyper-scaling into your asshole (introducing sub-classes in ADC, which is the only class in the game that does not have subclasses for some reason), and learn NOT to caress them with BOTH most gold efficient and cheapest itemisation, and

Re-balance the map so there isn't as extreme of a map imbalance where most of the actions would and should take place in the lower side of the map by definition due to the immense significance of dragon control while having no alternatives of equal power in the top side of the map (especially now dragons give permanent team buffs and late-game win condition buffs, while the top side still only has Baron for late game and that in early game Rift Herald which only ever spawns once and is nowhere as impactful as dragon buffs).

Respectively:

Only true on paper as in-game a mage is still entirely capable of 100-0ing any ADC they can successfully combo, typically from out of ADC range, an Assassin of equal-gold is capable of the same if they play correctly. If you're including the Support in this then logically you should include another champion for the enemy as well- perhaps a tank CCing the ADC and Support while the mage/assassin does their job?
It's called roaming. If you mean actually laning in Top or Mid instead of Bot- nothing prevents that except the enemy lane proceeding to crush the 2v1 lane. ADC or not is ultimately irrelevant for this point.
Do you want objectives? Then you take the objective-taking class.
ADC does have sub-classes: you have the more "caster-based" ones like Ezreal, Lucian, and you have your basic "shoot a lot" champions like Tristana, Vayne, and then you have a generous chunk of unique ones like Draven, Quinn, where they have very unique elements. Just because they aren't officially named doesn't mean they don't exist.
They attempted this with Rift Herald and likely will continue trying to work with this in the future as it's a long-standing goal. Remember that prior to Herald there was nothing there at all so without dispute- the top half of the map is more important now than it has ever been.

SEKAINov 26, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Respectively:

Only true on paper as in-game a mage is still entirely capable of 100-0ing any ADC they can successfully combo them, typically from out of ADC range, an Assassin of equal-gold is capable of the same if they play correctly. If you're including the Support in this then logically you should include another champion for the enemy as well- perhaps a tank CCing the ADC and Support while the mage/assassin does their job?

What "on paper"? Why do you think all of the previously tried alternative bot tactics are no longer seen, ranging from double assassins, to double mages, double bruisers, and anything in-between, if not for the fact every single one of those things were nerfed out of bot lane as soon as someone tried those things there? Is it "on paper" to say that ADC+Supp hasn't been overriden or challenged because it is effectively the strongest you can get without a peer outside another ADC+Supp, given that all of the past challengers which involved all of the other champion classes have been nerfed out of competition by Riot, which only logically means ADC and Supp are practically the most overpowered classes in the game?

But then you gave me a totally not "on-paper" rebuttal which ultimately mounts up to "if mages and assassins can somehow get past all of their peels because teammate power and land/chain their skillshots and combos, they could kill this 1 guy on their 5-man team."

Okay, first, whether or not mages and assassins can actually solo kill even the somehow defenseless ADCs is still a big question mark. Because mages' items are gold inefficient and provides less value than most ADC itemisation for the same gold and you're also assuming the mages will land their combos perfectly which you know just how much work those are, meanwhile in the case of assassins they have their dreaded artificial burst-delay and the possibility that lethality might get nerfed at any time which is a problem in a sense that currently many assassins have to abuse the utterly broken lethality stacking to get things done so what' gonna happen when they put the items in-line eventually(?).
Secondly, that scenario is fucking impossible, ADCs will almost always have peels and team's priority on peeling them. Since you're reserving the power of the bursters to take down high priority targets, it means the guy holding the ball can not be involved in the action themselves, which means by simple analysis one can clearly see the chances of "distraction" tactics is naturally loaded against the attacker with smaller chances of success than the defenders by default. This "distraction" tactic is optimistic at best because because it never works against any team with consistency, let alone having ideal results as you described, unless you are in the bottom elos. Therefore the only solution is from roaming and picking, which again, doesn't work unless you play and mind game and really catch them out of position, assuming in a respectable elo bracket; and that's a shit ton of work just to get to somebody, definitely far more than you'd claim to be there.
Thirdly, you're saying it's entirely okay to trade so much for a single target in a 5 man team; don't you think it's kind of fucked up in a way that a person can be so is so vastly and unproportionally important that if we really fit the entire game into the nutshell, the entire game is just 2 ADCs fighting against each other while 8 other players are just trying to put the other team's ADC out of action for as long as possible? Hell, Top is the worst, all they're doing is just being a sentient cannon minion now, you really happy with this state of the game?
Fourthly, any sufficiently fed ADC will simply counter-burst the mages and assassin coming after them with guaranteed damage of AA and the problematic crits, on top of little need to land combos and exhausting their rotations like mages and assassins would. Riot makes sure that would be the case, I mean, why do you even think mage and assassin rework happened in the first place, if not to increase "counterplay" ADCs have against mages and assassins, who you know, are supposed to counter ADCs? You see the deal? This is not even including the addition of Stopwatch btw, which for some reason Riot also thought the only meaningful counterplay against enemy ADCs via 4-man ganking bot needs counterplay too, because I guess to them only an ADC can challenge another ADC or something.

Nothing prevents that except the enemy lane proceeding to crush the 2v1 lane. ADC or not is ultimately irrelevant for this point.

Wrong, Supports will naturally have options to go somewhere else if other places is equally important as the lower half of the map. There is literally no reason to wander around the top side of the map, because there's barely any objective worth taking in the early game given Rift Herald doesn't really do much unless you're already massively snowballing or nobody in the enemy team knows what's up and just sit back and give you both free objectives and turrets, the damn Rift Herald is also taking so damn long to kill so it further depreciates any incentive to contest top side of the map, the thing only ever spawns once, and most importantly, Dragon now gives buff that rivals Baron's; so of course people play in the lower side of the map, why would they even try to gear up for the top side? Not some rocket science to understand, if you put equally alluring objective at the top, then people will spread differently depending on the need; it's clearly far from "nothing prevents that", it's more to do with "nothing is being done to prevent that, and everything done is an antithesis to fixing it".

Do you want objectives? Then you take the objective-taking class.

Since when ranged ADCs are the only characters allowed to take objectives? Anyone with supreme ability power and/or attack speed or even both can take down towers fairly quickly, especially when towers are quite weak in this day and age which is another much complained subject.

The reason why ADCs are mandatory is not because they somehow is THE objective-taking class, it's because they're overall the most overpowered who also happen to take towers pretty fast too, because they're catered like fucking babies and spoon-fed with most of the goodies in the game. It's kinda hard to not be the best in almost everything when Riot believes you have to both be tower pushers, tank slayers, capable of soloing your fucking counters because "counterplay reasons", duelists, and all of them will be hypercarries that scales into everybody's asshole; and yes, all of those at the same fucking time, because why? Because Riot doesn't believe Marksmen need an official subclass system (see below).

ADC does have sub-classes: you have the more "caster-based" ones like Ezreal, Lucian, and you have your basic "shoot a lot" champions like Tristana, Vayne, and then you have a generous chunk of unique ones like Draven, Quinn, where they have very unique elements. Just because they aren't officially named doesn't mean they don't exist.

That is not officially defined, that's why marksmen's balance is such a mess. What do you think would happen if Master Yi is balanced exactly the same as how they do with Talon or Zed? I use this analogy because Yi is typically built like most other AS marksmen while Talon and Zed build more "caster" where they stack arm pen/lethality; of course in the case between slayers and assassins, they're obviously separated in balance to prevent "cross-contamination" and make the balance hard to deal with. This is why they invented tags like say artillery mages, battle mages, and control mages within the subject of mages, and balance them accordingly to their subclass. But for some reason, this kind of idea is never put to actual use when marksmen is concerned, and there is no official subclasses defined for all marksman champs and it becomes a nightmare of someone breaking something on a daily basis.

Like why? Why can't they just do the fix that's fixed all of the other classes up pretty well, do they simply intent marksmen constantly breaking things to be just normal everyday life? Why?

They attempted this with Rift Herald and likely will continue trying to work with this in the future as it's a long-standing goal. Remember that prior to Herald there was nothing there at all.

Are you saying Riot needs more than 7 years to realise a imbalanced map creates an imbalanced play distribution? And this after the fact they deliberate make dragons give not just gold but permanent stats to the entire team and add an end-game dragon that rivals Baron, but no true early counterpart of early drakes in the Baron pit? They even go out of their way to make Rift buffs to be temporary and fixed on 1 person when it gave the buff, just to be sure no one would have an idea about shifting the action towards the top side, and then change the make top even more obsolete by changing Rift into a 1-use summon that anyone from the team that killed can take.

It's pretty obvious that they simply want it that way, that they just want the action at bot, and want it to be the most relevant. And that's just very annoying if not just bad.

SociopathFriendNov 26, 20171 votes

What "on paper"?

"On paper" in that instance meant any mage or assassin can 1v1 an ADC as you seemed to think the opposite. You said they were the most overpowered class and I assumed you meant in terms of gameplay. Lux 1180 + 225% AP Say she has 375 ability power- that's over 2000 damage. No ADC lives through that on their own. On paper- even Lux can 100-0 any ADC so long as she lands her abilities.

Fourthly, any sufficiently fed ADC will simply counter-burst the mages and assassin coming after them with guaranteed damage of AA and the problematic crits

Name one ADC that can counterburst from 1000 range away. Mages typically have the same formula at heart- at least one form of CC that renders targets helpless to dodge or evade the rest of their kit. Crits are not problematic, crits being too cheap are problematic, which is presumably going to be fixed after runes settle down.

Wrong, Supports will naturally have options to go somewhere else if other places is equally important as the lower half of the map.

I like how you complain about Rift Herald only being grabbed by snowballing teams and then envision this other objective not being the same. Sounds great, now when they kill your Jungler and another lane, they can go and grab two objectives that grant power instead of just one.

Since when ranged ADCs are the only characters allowed to take objectives?

They're not as, objectively, other classes are better at taking objectives than those other classes have ever been. Tanks have a tower-buster keystone. Mages convert some of their ability power to tower damage. They are, however, the best at it and will remain so as that's their point. The community throws a fit when a role takes over another's shtick- look at how the community raged over Assassins using tank items.

SEKAINov 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

"On paper" in that instance meant any mage or assassin can 1v1 an ADC as you seemed to think the opposite. You said they were the most overpowered class and I assumed you meant in terms of gameplay. 1180 + 225% AP Say she has 375 ability power- that's over 2000 damage. No ADC lives through that on their own. On paper- even Lux can 100-0 any ADC so long as she lands her abilities.

But that's not what actually happens because you're being overtly oversimplifying while doing this "on-paper" thingy hence that is entirely moot and meaningless.

Name one ADC that can counterburst from 1000 range away. Mages typically have the same formula at heart- at least one form of CC that renders targets helpless to dodge or evade the rest of their kit. Crits are not problematic, crits being too cheap are problematic, which is presumably going to be fixed after runes settle down.

Most mages don't even have that much bigger range than ADCs, and most fights certainly don't happen at max range.
Most of the time those CC that renders targets helpless is either conditional is itself a skillshot and dodgeable by the opponent, or even both such as Brand's empowered Q, because of again, Riot's beliefs on that ADCs should be capable of outplaying their counters and that mages and assassins have to seriously EARN their combos and kills even against what they are meant to counter (and worse these days, where they have to put in more effort to hunt those they are supposed to counter than their destined prey need to fight back).
You assume crits are going to get fixed soon? I say you're too naive. Because they could've fixed it 2 years ago, or any time between then and now, but they didn't, and there is no hints that they're going to; what makes you think they'll truly fix it in the next couple months just like that? I wouldn't put that much money on there if I were you.

I like how you complain about Rift Herald only being grabbed by snowballing teams and then envision this other objective not being the same. Sounds great, now when they kill your Jungler and another lane, they can go and grab two objectives that grant power instead of just one.

So your rebuttal to "Rift Herald is too insignificant against dragons as an objective thus people center their plays at bot" is "oh, what about the enemy team kills your jungler and wipe one of your lanes so they go and take both objectives so Rift Herald is not useless hurr hurr"... like, idk about you but I have literally no idea how you even thought it qualifies for a counterargument. Like, what does that have to do with anything, overly optimistic and oddly specific much?

So if I say a given champion X is underpowered and provided a list of justification for the claim, you can just go "but what about their team gets an ace and shoves 2 of their opponent's lane into inhibitors; now that means this champ is obviously not underpowered"? I doesn't work like that, mate.

They're not as, objectively, other classes are better at taking objectives than those other classes have ever been. Tanks have a tower-buster keystone. Mages convert some of their ability power to tower damage. They are, however, the best at it and will remain so as that's their point. The community throws a fit when a role takes over another's shtick- look at how the community raged over Assassins using tank items.

You are using the result, of which is skewed by other factors such as Riot's bias in game balancing, to work backwards to the cause and claim that something is and has always been that as if since day 1. That's not how it works, it literally makes no sense.

ADCs were not the only siegers in the game to warrant the "have ever been" nonsense. In fact they literally were not siegers but merely ranged DPSers; hell the ADC meta started with putting them in mid-lane to have access to roaming and add damage to other lanes if need be. ADCs were only UN-officially used as siegers in meta that later surfaced due to their range advantage (while stacking AS and AD to do sustained damage to towers); in other words, they were used as siegers in competitive setting NOT because of their speed in taking objectives down but safety, that's basically it. They are NOT somehow the best at it by definition, nor by a long shot especially back then, that has never been the case until Riot steps in and elect them into that role they were not part of by balancing them towards it, which as said before, expand and eventually include basically every things you can think of in this game; ADCs are now expected to have burst, sustained damage, utility, high scaling, sustainability, and capability to outplay most things even against their mortal enemies.

There were a class of champs in the past that were literally called "Pushers", who are designed to excel at shoving lanes and putting down turrets. Guess who populated that class then, just from memory, there were Yorick (I think), Morde, and Alistar, neither of which were ADCs. The greatest siegers on the other hand, have always been champs who can proc empowered attacks with or without AA resets, which traditionally has been a thing until again, Riot again steps in to remove almost all of the empowered attack procs on towers for no apparent reason; probably because they take turrets down way too god damn fast, and Riot wants ADCs to be the siegers instead; Trundle, Rengar, Jax etc used to obliterate towers in the matter of seconds, Nasus is a good reflection of that where his Q procing with towers somehow remained, you ever seen how fast a Nasus takes down a turret? The same goes for Udyr, if not for his current position in the game being on the lower end of the spectrum, you'd see more Udyrs running around blasting turrets left and right like nobody's business.

Again, just because Riot has some hard-on for ADC that has gone for some time, it doesn't mean ADC is by nature meant to do a lot of things Riot has for some reason elected them to do, and by that I mean electing them to literally be the overlords of this game and be good a most things at this stage. ADCs may be the siegers now because Riot specifically intends for that to happen, along with having ADCs being literally the best class in the game overall, but that doesn't mean it's all "that's their point". No, it doesn't.

GayFluffyUnicornNov 26, 20174 votes

BECAUSE THEY ARE A SCALING CLASS. WHY SHOULD THE BEST SCALING CLASS ALSO HAVE GOOD EARLY MID AND LATE AND ALSO HAVE THE HIGHEST IMPACT IN THE GAME??????? This "b b b but there are two people bot" 2>1 so they have more impact is what we call "Milchmädchenrechnung" in german. Idk if there is ANY translation to it though. Basically crap math because that is not how ANY of this works in a fucking moba. You dont want to be a glorified cannon minion for 25 minutes of the game? SIMPLY DONT PICK AN ADC. Where does this mental retardation come from that people think that the BEST SCALING CHAMP IN THE ENTIRE GAME also NEEDS to have the most influence because there are two people at one lane? Two people are in one lane simply because: 5 players and only three lanes and a jungle. Marksmen are the only class who can afford to be behind in levels because they scale off of items. End of story. Nothing else. There is no other reason. This "higher percentage of the team=most impact" is the single dumbest "argument" thrown around i#ve ever heard in the past two seasons. So we just start putting three people top and now toplane is the highest influence because there are three people. Or we send the toplaner bot now why not, now we have three people bot and have even MORE impact haHAAAA. That is your logic.

SEKAINov 26, 20172 votes

{quoted} [...] This "higher percentage of the team=most impact" is the single dumbest "argument" thrown around i#ve ever heard in the past two seasons. So we just start putting three people top and now toplane is the highest influence because there are three people. Or we send the toplaner bot now why not, now we have three people bot and have even MORE impact haHAAAA. That is your logic.

While I absolutely agree with your points, but just wanna say that I do kind of hope LoL actually has tri-laning lol.

rtbf225618241Nov 26, 20174 votes

The argument here is that they're too powerful not that they're more powerful than the other lanes naturally.

UnknownTerritoryNov 25, 20177 votes

I agree*[sg-janna]*

wildfox99Nov 26, 20176 votes

I know this has been said a thousand times

and thousand times riot didn't do anything,so it's ok i guess

Ariel the CruelNov 26, 20176 votes

I don't know. Top lane tends to be more important when I play. Though the jungler/support that doesn't cap alters is really to most powerful force in most games. . .

<Waits for nobody to get the joke.>

LordForrestNov 26, 20173 votes

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md1ue1Xbah1qehl9po1_250.gif

OP Garen SupportNov 26, 20176 votes

The true problem is that the balanced shifted towards favoring ADC. Currently this is the balance Riot is enforcing

BOTLANE > EVERYTHING ELSE

ADC >MAGE ADC> ASSASSIN ADC>SUPPORT ADC>TANK ADC>JUGGERNAUT ADC>....

There is noone to kill the unskilled right clicking BPS carries.ú

If Riot wanted real balance it would look like this

ADC +SUPPORT>MAGE ADC +SUPPORT> ASSASSIN ADC +SUPPORT>SUPPORT ADC +SUPPORT>TANK ADC +SUPPORT>JUGGERNAUT ADC +SUPPORT>....

ADC should never have the power to 1 vs 1 any class other then ADC or SUPPORT unless they are fed.

Few years ago the balance looked like this: MAGES >ADC ASSASSINS =MAGE (skill matchup) except when assassins buy item 3155 then its no longer skill matchup. TANKS>ASSASSINS TANKS >MAGES JUGGERNAUTS >ADC JUGGERNAUTS >ASSASSINS JUGGERNAUTS>TANKS MAGES>JUGGERNAUTS ADC>TANKS ADC>SUPPORTS

D4ziriNov 26, 20173 votes

It's actually

ADC beats Tanks Tanks beat Fighters Fighters beat Assassins Assassins beat Mages Mages beat ADCs

Support is support and they usually turn the tide of the battle. And skill ofc is the thing that determines the outcome.

yoshi2790Nov 26, 20175 votes

Tanks don't beat fighters.... Tanks beat mages.

It's like this: DPS > Tank > Burst > DPS

ElkingtonNov 26, 20176 votes

It will never happen unless the map design changes for some reason.

The DreamwalkerNov 26, 20176 votes

I honestly have no idea why people are surprised. The game was crafted for the bot lane.

Tanks - Absorb damage to protect the marksmen.

Support - Literally lane w/ the marksmen to ensure they don't fall behind.

Mage - Provide more firepower on the team to accompany the marksmen's power.

Fighter - Charges in to draw attention off of the marksmen.

Assassin - Focuses on destroying the marksmen.

I mean, every role has a focus with the marksmen.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 27, 20173 votes

Actually, assassins being meant to blow up the marksman (or any other high-priority target) is more of a myth than anything. Squishy, melee-range champion? Never going to be useful in a teamfight.

An assassin's job is more accurately to prevent scaling. They're not meant to nuke the ADC in every fight, they're meant to stop the ADC from getting shit for items. Look for a mage to blow up priority targets.

The DreamwalkerNov 27, 20171 votes

Hmm, that is actually interesting. But, what about Katarina ? I play her here and there and she blows up people pretty easily. I think some assassins are useful in teamfights. I mean, not all assassins are melee. Leblanc and Ahri are considered assassins and they can be useful.

I do see how they can prevent scaling instead of focusing on nuking the adc.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 27, 20171 votes

Assassins can nuke, but they run into two issues: The support and their own squishiness.

If they take out the enemy ADC, and die, they're just trading 1 for 1. Not exactly advantageous. And even when you do go in to assassinate on Katarina, you don't go in and try to blow them up. You wait for them to waste all of their CC, you wait for them to be weak, and then you clean them up.

And Ahri is closer to a mobile mage than an assassin, honestly.

The DreamwalkerNov 27, 20171 votes

Yea, that is sometime I have learned from playing Kat. You have wait for the cc to be used up. Also, yea Ahri is a mobile mage, but Riot included her in the assassin-only mode, so I included her here is all.

MorticianjohnNov 26, 20175 votes

I remember last year sometime they added a second to the TP channel time. I think just reverting that change might help the top lane have more influence around the map

Sun Wu RyuumokuNov 27, 20172 votes

I remember last year sometime they added a second to the TP channel time. I think just reverting that change might help the top lane have more influence on the bot

JinkuzuNov 26, 20175 votes

You obiously havnt played ADC at all or been particularly good at it. Adc mains with a brain for the few that exsist knows that it's the supports running bot lane not adc. ADCs are in a fine state atm and has been for a good while now imo. Just supports being over tuned also, no good bruisers? Renekton, Jayce, Kled, Xin would love to have a word with you and you have unkillable tanks.

SJW GARENNov 26, 20175 votes

{quoted}

You obiously havnt played ADC at all or been particularly good at it. Adc mains with a brain for the few that exsist knows that it's the supports running bot lane not adc. ADCs are in a fine state atm and has been for a good while now imo. Just supports being over tuned also, no good bruisers? Renekton, Jayce, Kled, Xin would love to have a word with you and you have unkillable tanks.

Renekton is trash right now, Kled isn't great either, Xin is strong but he's a jungler. Darius sucks, Garen is Garen, Nasus sucks, Trundle is kinda weak, Illaoi is kinda weak, Olaf sucks. How many other champions like that are there for toplane?

ADCs aren't in a fine state - even though supports do too much aswell - the least riot can do is make crit itemization more expensive. Period.

DraydanNov 26, 20171 votes

https://www.op.gg/champion/statistics would like to disagree, olaf is currently at top list, just saying. with 54% winrate on top lane

HügöNov 26, 20175 votes

So after Ardent blaming now comes the whole support role?

KnalxzNov 26, 20175 votes

I think it's near impossible to do such a thing since bot will always contain 40% of the team, sometimes 60 if a jungler camps it.

So either 40 to 60% of your team is strong or is weak which forcing bot to be vital. Not to mention Dragon is right next to it, making the area even more vital.

Come to think of it, what if Dragon was moved to top and Rift bot. Eh, I guess Baron and Elder would have to move too. Hmm.

Pop000100Nov 26, 20173 votes

Come to think of it, what if Dragon was moved to top and Rift bot.Eh, I guess Baron and elder would have to move too. Hmm.

if you did that they would just go top lane and it solves nothing(except shift power of teemo and rengar because of bush placement)

GelmousNov 26, 20175 votes

jungler needs to stop being the game deciding role

Call Me NanaNov 26, 20174 votes

Zed will never not be a problem.

PennsNov 25, 20173 votes

What about mid tho? Theres still good bruisers too m9

AirKingNeoNov 25, 201715 votes

good bruisers

https://www.op.gg/champion/statistics

Olaf abusing comet after being viable for how long? Yorick being overtunned. And then Kled sitting at #16.

PennsNov 25, 20174 votes

Jax Irelia JarvanIV Pantheon RekSai Shyvana Udyr opie and dont forget like the most broken champ in the game XinZhao lel

NefariousQuackNov 26, 20172 votes

{quoted}

opie and dont forget like the most broken champ in the game lel

Pantheon and Jarvan are Divers, not bruisers.

Jax isn't good atm, Rek'Sai isn't good atm, Udyr isn't good atm, Irelia is bad unless her lane opponent is bad, Shyvana is only good because her Q lets her seriously abuse PtA, Xin Zhao is a relatively new champ but is a jungler not a toplaner, toplane xin zhaos are idiots.

AirKingNeoNov 26, 201711 votes

Divers are a subset of bruisers.

AirKingNeoNov 26, 20173 votes

Please say you're joking when you say Xin is 'broken'.

PennsNov 26, 20175 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/1acac0809492baeabef043315d151200.png https://i.gyazo.com/409745d339608a0c1d709d602dcd5d16.png im afraid not m8

Mokuto BunshiNov 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

https://www.op.gg/champion/statistics

Olaf abusing comet after being viable for how long? Yorick being overtunned. And then Kled sitting at #16.

As a kled main I just wanna say, he likely stands out due to not actually being a bruser (more of a diver fighter when built wit damage like a black cleaver hydra) and his health bar split that allows him to do things other wise too risky.

AirKingNeoNov 27, 20171 votes

something something kled can abuse stoneplate to remount.

Mokuto BunshiNov 29, 20171 votes

And I always do. (Doesn't help against %true dmg and things like Trundle/Urgot/cho'gath/Daruis etc). But hes really solid and fleshed out (both as a character and a champion), just sad more people don't play him.

Troll for TrumpNov 25, 20175 votes

Mid has malz, corki, and assassins. Few fringe mages, but at least it's not just one class

stone the blacksNov 26, 201715 votes

mid lane is for other adcs or glorified supports

intro bot teamNov 26, 20173 votes

actually its not just about bot its if the team is able to play around bot like toplane tps and jungle ganks i agree that bruisers are pretty worthless rn but tanks in the toplane are insanely strong

Hong Kong AnnieNov 26, 20179 votes

The solution to beating an enemy bot lane that's ahead shouldn't be to 5 man gank them over and over to reset the lead, you should be able to make plays on the other side of the map that are just as impactful. The fact that ganking bot is the solution shows there is in fact a problem