Whose bright idea was it to make AP items so stupidly expensive compared to AD

AquariusGine·Mar 1, 2016·183 votes·7,492 views

If an AD champion buys

The mage has to buy , a mana regen item, AND a magic penetration item.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Like WHY. WHY WHY WHY???

189 Comments

FrikgeekMar 1, 20168 votes

Hexdrinker gives 20 AD and 35 MR, Seeker's armguard gives you 35 AP and 45 armor when stacked and is 80g cheaper than hex. Why are you crying about this again? It looks like the AP champion gets more stats for their gold.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 201652 votes

Add up shield, do actual calculations comparing resistance+shield with pure resistance, come back. Seeker's is thrash and you need to stack it, and it build into trashy item.

FrikgeekMar 1, 201613 votes

The gold value of Seeker's is 1661 when you stack it and there's no way to play around it. The gold Value of Hexrinker is 1330 without the shield, the shield will give you ~150 hp earlygame when it matters so that's 400g, 1730g in total.

Hexdrinker is 100g more expensive and gives you 69g in stats more earlygame, if you play around the shield it's even worse. That makes Hexdrinker 130% gold efficient while Seeker's is at 138%.

Even with the hex shield Seeker's armguard is more gold efficient once stacked and it only takes 2.5 mins to fully stack it.

Idk what kind of drugs you're on to call Zhonya's a trashy item, it's one of the best items in the game. That active is completely game changing if you use it correctly.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 201633 votes

Brilliant. Now calculate effective HP. Be sure to include base MR of a champion. Gold value means nothing if wielder of Hexdrinker is still way harder to kill.

FrikgeekMar 1, 20164 votes

Why would I do that? Gold value is everything that matters when you're complaining about AP items being too expensive or AD items being too cheap. How those items scale off of base champion stats is completely irrelevant.

Not to mention that Seeker's gives you 978g in AP while Hexdrinker only gives you 720g in AD, Hexdrinker is a more defence-oriented item.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 201619 votes

Yes it is relevant, resistances give increasing returns when coupled with HP/shields and vice versa. Raw armor may be expensive but it doesn't mean it's not nearly worthless for a mage.

Not to mention that Seeker's gives you 978g in AP while Hexdrinker only gives you 720g in AD, Hexdrinker is a more defence-oriented item.

That's when fully stacked.

My Waifu VanillaMar 1, 20162 votes

Oh no not like 4 and a half waves. Damn, I have to wait like 2.5 minutes for my item to be really cost effective. Must mean RoA is a garbage item, right?

AMYS GRAVEMar 1, 201614 votes

Excuse me Zed, please let me farm these next 4.5 waves without harassing me or killing me so my item can be worth something. Don't punish me for taking a stacking item before its stacked please.

My Waifu VanillaMar 1, 20162 votes

Dodge shurikens and he won't harass you (or if he uses shurikens to push you CAN harass him back with no fighting back). Also at level 6 if you buy this item (which is when you should) Zed cannot 100-0 you on his own with at most a hexdrinker. Doesn't matter what mid you are you should have both flash and your other DEFENSIVE summoner up still since he shouldn't be able to blow them before level 6 so his kill potential goes down again.

Everyone complains about altering play against Zed by taking Exh or Heal/Barrier but taking ignite is not only a death sentence, but you will not be able to kill him with it anyway. You actually have MORE kill potential with exhaust since he WILL still try to kill you and fall flat on his face and probably die by overcommiting. This is especially true when you are probably pushing about 75 armor as well.

AMYS GRAVEMar 1, 201617 votes

Dodge shurikens and he won't harass you

dodge the skillshot has always been the best form of counterplay and at no point has ever been frustrating to play against Blitzcrank Nidalee etc....

You actually have MORE kill potential with exhaust since he WILL still try to kill you and fall flat on his face and probably die by overcommiting.

Assuming the zed is bad isn't a comment on balance.

This is especially true when you are probably pushing about 75 armor as well.

Where on earth are you getting 75 armor on a mage?

My Waifu VanillaMar 1, 20163 votes

Seekers gives 30-45 and most Mages have ATLEAST 30+ armor at level 6, so yes, you are pushing 75 armor at this point. This is not even considering your choice of Seals.

ShinirupMar 2, 20164 votes

Um...what kind of a mage doesn't run all Armor runes? 36.27 extra starting armor. I mean sure even with that Orianna only starts with 53.31 armor. But... I'm sure most mages start with closer to Cho'gaths 28.8...wait...that's still only like 65. Oh well obviously mages all take tank masteries also. SEE!

Edit: Oh at level 6 well see then Orianna has around 32 base armor so add the 36...close enough to 75.

As an aside:

Ori, Azir, Ryze, Zyra, and TF don't have 75 base armor even at level 18.

The Yetii RiderMar 1, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Brilliant. Now calculate effective HP. Be sure to include base MR of a champion. Gold value means nothing if wielder of Hexdrinker is still way harder to kill.

Except you're ONLY looking at stats there. You're not considering that AD assassins have no peel (only escapes, which can be reacted to. CC just removes options if it hits) and no range.

Champions like Ziggs, Lux, Heimerdinger and Syndra have CC and range that make them much harder to kill.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 201610 votes

Except those champions usually build Zhonya's 6th item, mostly because it's less crappy alternative to Rylais as high AP item for them, mages with high self-peel and range are not primary Armguard users, stop using them as example.

Only Heimer builds it out of champions you mentioned, but that's because of his very specific playstyle.

The Yetii RiderMar 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Except those champions usually build Zhonya's 6th item, mostly because it's less crappy alternative to Rylais as high AP item for them, mages with high self-peel and range are not primary Armguard users, stop using them as example.

Only Heimer builds it out of champions you mentioned, but that's because of his very specific playstyle.

Okay..:so which mages are you talking about that build Seeker's, but DONT have range/self peel and DONT have synergy with Zhonya's?

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 20167 votes

Why having synergy with Zhonya's make it less shitty and overpriced? Most mages that are good with Zhonya's are in shitty spot right now for that very reason.

The Yetii RiderMar 1, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Why having synergy with Zhonya's make it less shitty and overpriced? Most mages that are good with Zhonya's are in shitty spot right now for that very reason.

Er...because Zhonya's is frustrating and has been a staple in the game for four years now? Riot can't shake up the meta if Zhonya's is always being rushed successfully. It promotes high risk play with little chance to punish when used correctly, meaning mid laners who can't rush it are always worse off when it's good.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 20167 votes

Doesn't change how itemization for mages sucks, sry. Those mages who need armor don't have any semi-good option.

The Yetii RiderMar 1, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't change how itemization for mages sucks, sry. Those mages who need armor don't have any semi-good option.

Dead Man's Plate is good on everyone, for the same reason that boots are good on everyone.

Frozen Heart gives mana and CDR, which mages love.

Yes, there are scarce options to itemize for both offense and defense. Them's the breaks when you have range, CC and AOE.

JayrettMar 1, 20165 votes

he means as in gives both armor and ap. you listed tank items, not mage items. I'm not saying you're wrong, just you were listing items from an entirely different class. can anyone build it? yes, I commonly pick up portal as my final item as ahri for a reason. does it mean that mages have semi-decent items to take for first items that have armor? no, they have zero decent options unless they use that 1 certain item that will on most mages just simply make them take another 2 seconds to kill you.

AnidanMar 1, 20163 votes

Wasn't there an AP + Armor + MR item on Dominion and Twisted Treeline? Wish they'd port that over and change its tenacity stat to something else for SR. That'd help at least a little bit as a start, maybe.

MagearnaMar 1, 20163 votes

Moonflair Spellblade, yes.

NineTailedMysticMar 2, 20164 votes

As much as I adore the item, it'd end up being a must buy on any AP even without the tenacity. 50 AR/MR along with the AP even if it's only 50 is insane.

I'd be down for 40/30 AR/MR and 70 AP though.

Moulin RougeMar 1, 20166 votes

{quoted}

The gold value of Seeker's is 1661 when you stack it and there's no way to play around it. The gold Value of Hexrinker is 1330 without the shield, the shield will give you ~150 hp earlygame when it matters so that's 400g, 1730g in total.

Hexdrinker is 100g more expensive and gives you 69g in stats more earlygame, if you play around the shield it's even worse. That makes Hexdrinker 130% gold efficient while Seeker's is at 138%.

Even with the hex shield Seeker's armguard is more gold efficient once stacked and it only takes 2.5 mins to fully stack it.

Idk what kind of drugs you're on to call Zhonya's a trashy item, it's one of the best items in the game. That active is completely game changing if you use it correctly.

You're not taking into account that by the time seekers is stacked, an enemy AD has plenty of armor pen and you also have 0 mana regen unless you deviate and delay your zhonyas (which in most cases is bad bad BAD)

FrikgeekMar 1, 20164 votes

It takes 2.5 minutes to fully stack it, you only need 5 waves(which will give you 32 cs), less if you take chickens, then you only need 2 mins. Are you really saying the AD champion is going to get hexdrinker then recall after only 2 minutes of laning just to buy some Arpen?

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 201612 votes

Why would AD champion who has huge advantage due to Hexdrinker being so much better than non-stacked Seeker's(1730 gold value as you said, vs 1035 in non-effective stats) allow you to take 100% CS? Why do we assume game has place in bronze?

FrikgeekMar 1, 20161 votes

No, we're assuming you picked an actually viable champion and have a way to waveclear with a spell from over 900 range, making it pretty safe. Mana isn't a problem because your jungler will give you blue around lvl 7 and you should recall for Seeker's+boots around lvl 6, waveclearing before a siege wave so you don't lose any cs.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 201613 votes

If I have ability to take 100% CS safely, why would I need rush defensive item in the first place? Seeker's and Zhonya's being overpriced crap is the reason why champions in questions aren't viable...

FrikgeekMar 1, 20161 votes

To get Zhonya's faster so you can actually contribute in the midgame transition and roaming and not have to be scared shitless every time your opponent leaves lane?

Not being able to 1v1 means you can't safely follow roams since you have to take the long route through your own jungle.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 20167 votes

You can achieve that with vision. Again, why we assume bronze game?

FrikgeekMar 1, 20162 votes

Obviously you've never played in a decent rating, otherwise you'd know that vision goes to the laner with better all-in. If the enemy laner stabs a pink in the pixel brush and you can't 1v1 him you'll never be able to get any vision in that area and you'll never be able to kill that pink.

The best you can do in that situation is secure vision top-side but that matters much less than bot-side vision.

Zero Skill TankMar 1, 20166 votes

And Zhonya's helps with that exactly how? Any half-decent Maw user will still punish you severely for getting this pink if you rush Zhonyas, cutting of your roam anyways. If I have 900 range safe and reliable waveclear I'm still much better using my mana to push him into his tower making him choose between defending river pink and CS.

Only hey, overpriced stasis is still not what I need to do that. There's a reason why only strong roamers with decent winrate are Ahri and TF.

MagearnaMar 1, 20163 votes

He mainly plays Ryze and Riven, and the other champs he plays don't build Zhonyas. That's why he can't understand you. Which is sad because he's S5 Challenger and is currently D1. It's not like this concept is something hard to understand.

You make very valid points. I agree with you on all of them.

Faith BreakerMar 1, 201611 votes

Reporting this user for trolling

DengedenMar 1, 20168 votes

The guy who got bored of farmed APs instaclearing waves from ridiculous range with like 2 abilities.

VekknaMar 1, 201659 votes

You mean Zed's Q?

Spicy RiceMar 1, 20163 votes

No he means lux e, ori e-q, ziggs q

VekknaMar 1, 201636 votes

Zed's range is longer than Ori, does more initial damage, and gets reduced less than Ori.

So if he means Ori, he means Zed even more.

Guy Fox TeemoMar 1, 20163 votes

Okay no what? It doesn't get reduced less then Ori, Zeds Q does more initial damage Early , and does LESS damage to multiple targets since its reduced by 60% for all other targets hit and any of shurkiens are also reduced by 60%.

VekknaMar 1, 201626 votes

I suggest reading tooltips. Zed's Q deals a minimum of 60% damage, Ori's deals a minimum of 40% damage.

So if you have a 7 target wave and hit every target, Ori deals 4.9x her tooltip damage in total. Zed deals 4.6 of his tooltip damage in total.

But since Zed's tooltip damage has drastically higher base damage and scaling, Zed does far more damage with waveclear than Ori.

Because math.

PennsMar 2, 20161 votes

Well Oris Q has better scaling, half the cooldown if she maxes it and higher range unless Zed uses his mobility spell... Which he probably shouldnt.

VekknaMar 2, 20163 votes

Ori's Q range is 850. Zed's Q range is 900.

Ori's Q scales at 50% AP. Zed's Q scales at 100% bonus AD, increased to 105/110/115/120/125 passively with W rank.

If Zed uses WQ, the range is 1600.

Voluug13Mar 1, 201650 votes

Which cost mana (and quite a hefty amount in many cases) and arent ''instaclearing'' unless they rush high amounts of AP, right?

If they rush AP, they are squishy and go OoM fast.

If they rush Armor/HP, they have no damage and go OoM fast anyways.

If they rush a mana engine, they have low damage and are squishy.

Meanwhile, Zed rushes item 3155 and counterbuilt his AP enemy completly., while not losing much because it builds into something cheap, efficient and easy to build.

PennsMar 2, 20168 votes

I clicked on this thread and 30 seconds later I already got cancer from all the bias LOL.

Zed is strong, has good wave clear and Hexdrinker/Maw is a really strong item as well, Im not denying that. But cmon, AD assassins generally want to rush both armor pen and CDR, Hexdrinker doesnt give any of that. AD mids build Hexdrinker because otherwise they would just get insta oneshot by that Annie or Ahri or whatever. They need it.

Maw might even need some small nerfs, but lets not exaggerate like that.

DengedenMar 1, 20163 votes

I meant instaclearing a wave. That's 3 abilities and probably a few autos fo' Zed.

Voluug13Mar 1, 201627 votes

Which none of the champions you listed can do without rushing full AP, anyways.

While Zed uses energy and his Q is on lower or equal cd that most of those.

Kuroi86Mar 1, 20166 votes

Meanwhile other AD mids face a similar or greater struggle to their AP counter parts.

Zed isn't the only AD mid, he's strong for sure, but he's not the default.

Voluug13Mar 2, 20165 votes

There is Talon, who is supposed to not have waveclear... and Yasuo? Which has equally unfair waveclear to Zed since he is resourceless and low cd. Riskier, yes, but only from jungle ganks because WindWall.

Kuroi86Mar 2, 20164 votes

Talon, not resourceless.

Yasuo, extremely weak until he's gotten his Shiv.

Neither come close to the early game of Zed.

The biggest issue is the advantage assassins naturally have against most mages. There are some like Vladimir Swain that can sort of cheat their way around this, but otherwise mages just don't have the strongest laning phases, many don't really start to shine until team fights start.

QuavelixMar 2, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Talon, not resourceless.

> Yasuo, extremely weak until he's gotten his Shiv.

Neither come close to the early game of Zed.

The biggest issue is the advantage assassins naturally have against most mages. There are some like that can sort of cheat their way around this, but otherwise mages just don't have the strongest laning phases, many don't really start to shine until team fights start.

That is just NOT true.