Can laners please regain control of laning phase?

HateDaddy··137 votes·5,745 views

Games by in large have almost always been decided by which team has the better jungler but over the course of the last few seasons, that feels harshly even more true. Laners have very little tools to deal with junglers now. We've lost the ability to ward because we have timed trinkets and our pink wards are often brushed away with little thought. Junglers have gained more ganking pathes and options to make their ganks even more effective. Early game junglers have been all the rage, meaning all that Kha/Lee/Graves/Zac have to do is sneeze on you to remove 50% of your HP. No point in even flashing.

This is just so dumb. There's almost no consequence to a failed gank anymore. And I can't possibly fend off junglers because all they need to do is pick up a sweeper to remove any potential vision I may have. The following things need to happen to give laners some semblance of a lane phase again or else games will just keep ending at 18-22 minutes.

•We need the option to purchase wards again.

Nothing here needs to be explained.

•Early game junglers need fucking gutting across the board.

It is clear fair nerfs don't even do anything. Even when their winrate plummet, people still play them. That's because there just aren't many options. Most farm junglers are troll picks right now and tank junglers are all but dead. Mage junglers don't exist much either. There is still no diversity in the most impactful role in the game.

•Exp needs to be trimmed down again

Junglers need to actually be punished for fucking up ganks.

•Rift Herald needs to feel like an actual objective

It certainly doesn't feel that way when it's a free tower and all it takes is a level 6-7 jungler to solo it.

•Red buff needs to be nerfed, at least early game.

This literally makes fucking ganks impossible. You can miss crucial skill shots on the likes of Lee, Elise or Zac but still easily get in range to apply red buff slow and this alone will force a flash. Red buff should be more about assisting clears, not a free second chance to secure a gank when you fuck up.

•Sweeper can have its cooldown reduced

In compensation for all the changes above and more wards out, sweeper can have a passive on the jungle items that has its cooldown significantly reduced. This opens up strategic play more and currently there's none of that as a jungler. Pick an early game jungler, gank everything and have two inhibitors destroyed by 18 minutes.

In my mind, the biggest offenders are snowball junglers and lack of wards. Both of these problems go hand in hand. You can't stave off snowball junglers because your avenue to vision is severely limited. Making exchanges for ganks doesn't have the payoff it on once did. Taking a tower or objective when a jungler gets a kill on the opposite side of the map usually get like a fairly decent trade. Now it feels like shot, because graves got the kill on the other side of the map so he will be down here in 30 seconds to kill all of us because he's now snowballing.

Jungling has become more polarizing than ever. And because of this, it has had a large and negative effect on the rest of the game. Much of the snowball problems this game has can be directly attributed to junglers. They have too much power and because of that, they have this sink or swim role where a disadvantage to the opposing jungler means you suddenly lose your ability to be impactful very quickly. This further intensifies the jungler snowballing because the person often effected the worse by as snowballing jungler is the opposing jungler. And I can't imagine that feels good at all. I know getting ganked 50 times in 6 seconds doesn't feel too great either.

165 Comments

Big Lincoln40 votes

remove the catch-up XP system too

there's no point in counterjungling these days when on top of all junglers being gank junglers, even if you set them back they'll still slingshot back into relevance on their own

Marshbouy16 votes

I can agree with this. It's infuriating to steal 6+ camps from the enemy and still be at an even level with them.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

I can agree with this. It's infuriating to steal 6+ camps from the enemy and still be at an even level with them.

I miss the days where 3 buffing an enemy jungler crippled them.

Now it doesn't even matter.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

It does, but only in terms of gold.

AMYS GRAVE23 votes

remove the catch-up XP system too

No, that fucks over supports. I remember the days before they buffed catch up XP where supports would be level 15 at 45 min while adcs were at 17 and everyone else was at 18. Fuck those days.

OyddAWqJ5r23 votes

He meant on jungle monsters. They currently level up with other players meaning lower leveled junglers are getting more %xp towards next level than higher leveled junglers.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Yea but it has to be there for if a lengthy DC happens. But the enemy team are confident in that player's return bringing victory.

ChaosThief22 votes

We need the option to purchase wards again

To be honest I would prefer the return of the old yellow trinket. You know, the one that had a 90 or 120 second cooldown but put down 3 minute wards the entire game?

Early junglers need gutting across the board

Not going to lie this would be nice. Currently, unless you're a top lane juggernaut, if you aren't already tower hugging a gank will mean death with little or no chance of survival, unless you use summoners. And they can just keep coming back over and over.

Rift herald needs to feel like an actual objective

This would be very nice. Right now it feels like an enemy pulling rift herald just ends the game 10 minutes faster. Maybe force more people to take herald like dragon, instead of just bringing the jungler and top laner, or even just one of them that can solo it.

Exp needs to be trimmed down again

I feel like it needs to be trimmed and then have the camps respawn faster. Force the junglers to farm camps more to keep them away from lanes constantly.

Red buff needs to be nerfed, at least early game.

Maybe apply a ramping slow that requires multiple autos to pull off? A set cap to the slow that rises throughout the game kind of thing (each auto applies 10%>40% of the slow, based on level, up to 40%, for example. I don't remember the current red buff numbers off the top of my head.)

Sweeper can have its' cooldown reduced

I feel like this would only make the problem worse with the current state of vision. But hey, I don't really know.

If anything I just want the game to slow down a bit. Laning phase is over by 10 minutes, mid game over by 20 minutes. You don't even have a chance to an un-unanimous surrender by the time the enemy reaches your base. Open up the option for late game carries again instead of just "Pick graves/lee sin/zac/kha'zix and force the game over by 20 minutes."

Quort3 votes

I like your idea about the exp point. Reducing exp wouldn't punish players for messing up ganks, it would just make farming a worse choice and bring junglers to the lanes even more.

ChaosThief1 votes

Yep, which is why camps need to spawn faster.

They need to have an incentive to stay in the jungle longer, not just have less exp from camps. Unless we want gank junglers to operate from 2-3 levels under every lane opponent, which would not be pleasant.

3TWarrior1 votes

but if the junglers have access to more camps, won't this just increase the snowball factor?

gold would have to be reduced as well and then it's a constant numbers game that some champions will always have an edge in

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

It depends. Fast camps were really just a problem when every jungle took purple smite and instantly cleared camps. Most junglers still can't powerfarm efficiently since the raptors destroy you (mainly referring to gank heavy junglers outside of Gragas/Zac) while the powerfarm junglers can still clear relatively easy (Shyv/Yi with their AoE). I would rather see the exp trim for early levels if need be and see what happens from there than what we have now when I get ganked by a level 3 jungler at 3 minutes and something. Honestly, seeing junglers take 4 camps for level 3 OR decreasing the ward cd for the 2nd charge would both be steps in the right direction since no matter how you look at it if you ward level 1 for vision of the enemy team (which you honestly should half the time) you will have NO ward until after the jungler is already strolling top or mid level 3 with doubles since you have to wait until like 3:45 or 4:00 to place a second one.

Marshbouy19 votes

I'd normally support a thread asking for less jungle pressure but you sound like you want to revert the jungle to people just afk farming all day. No thank you.

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

I'd normally support a thread asking for less jungle pressure but you sound like you want to revert the jungle to people just afk farming all day. No thank you.

Far from it. That's the opposite end of what we have now.

Marshbouy6 votes

Yes, but you want to make ganking much harder and gut those who can gank effectively. So what do you do then?

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but you want to make ganking much harder and gut those who can gank effectively. So what do you do then?

Ganking to actually require skill and strategic setup rather than show up to a lane, miss all your skills but use stalker smite + redbuff and get a kill anyway?

Ralanr2 votes

Why do it the hard way when I can just afk farm?

People always take the easiest option.

Marshbouy9 votes

I haven't seen that happen unless you are incredibly over extended or the allied laner lands some sort of CC ability too.

HateDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

I haven't seen that happen unless you are incredibly over extended or the allied laner lands some sort of CC ability too.

I'm not sure what you mean by overextended. I can be in the middle of the lane or hell I could even be under my own tower. You know that towers just going to tickle them.

Marshbouy4 votes

This is the point where you stop sounding like someone who wants to have a real discussion and someone who is just raging that they can't win every game and the enemy team is better than them.

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

This is the point where you stop sounding like someone who wants to have a real discussion and someone who is just raging that they can't win every game and the enemy team is better than them.

Yet you haven't suggested a single thing while I've written an entire OP on it with suggestions and explanations behind them. You haven't even outright contested anything I've said with examples and counter examples. I'm quite sure you're the one who isn't attempting to have a real discussion here because I've done everything to the contrary. You seem more interested in protecting status quo than even discussing it period. So yeah, say something that actually makes sense please.

Thefrostyviking6 votes

In the middle of the lane is too far if you can't escape, different champions have different safety zones, and warding properly and using the time bought by the wards is also important.

However it's true that some Junglers like Zac are too stronk.

And that Catch up exp is too high, it makes it possible for some champs to just gank nonstop and skip farming while maintaining a good lvl.

But usually most people who die to a jungle do so because they fail to appreciate the enemy junglers strength and overestimate their own.

Like, if you stand so far out in mid lane that you can't see the side paths behind you then you are too far out and are asking to get screwed, this has been a thing for ages.

And if the opposing jungle can towerdive you for so long even though you played safe then they're either fed or a tank.

Puttyblo10 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure what you mean by overextended. I can be in the middle of the lane or hell I could even be under my own tower. You know that towers just going to tickle them.

If you're Nasus being in the middle of the lane is pretty much over extended.

Big Lincoln14 votes

being in lane is being overextended

JVP157 votes

your face is overextended Ahem. I didn't say anything.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

If you're Nasus being in the middle of the lane is pretty much over extended.

If being in the middle of a lane is overextended regardless of what champion you are, thats a huge problem. I would argue it isn't being overextended in practice because a balanced lane shouldn't be equal overextension - but in reality it is. And that's a huge problem because that wasn't always true.

Puttyblo3 votes

{quoted}

If being in the middle of a lane is overextended regardless of what champion you are, thats a huge problem. I would argue it isn't being overextended in practice because a balanced lane shouldn't be equal overextension - but in reality it is. And that's a huge problem because that wasn't always true.

It's always been true lololol?

https://puu.sh/w8Rmr/ea1c868736.png

I see 7 openings just from you twirling your thumbs in the middle of the lane.

You're Nasus with 0 mobility/CC aside from a slow vs another top laner + a jungler, and your rationalization is that you should live if you get caught with your pants down. This is exactly why NA is considered extremely weak in the top lane department. This is also why I camp top lane the most. I can give you another map to show you every single way I gank a top laner and kill him 7 times in 10 mins.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

It's always been true lololol?

https://puu.sh/w8Rmr/ea1c868736.png

I see 7 openings just from you twirling your thumbs in the middle of the lane.

You're Nasus with 0 mobility/CC aside from a slow vs another top laner + a jungler, and your rationalization is that you should live if you get caught with your pants down. This is exactly why NA is considered extremely weak in the top lane department. This is also why I camp top lane the most. I can give you another map to show you every single way I gank a top laner and kill him 7 times in 10 mins.

Junglers practically 100-0ing you with ease at early levels without being fed wasn't always true. I could also buy wards and ward the most dangerous ganking paths. Now I've got a timed trinket.

Puttyblo4 votes

{quoted}

Junglers practically 100-0ing you with ease at early levels without being fed wasn't always true. I could also buy wards and ward the most dangerous ganking paths. Now I've got a timed trinket.

Evelynn Shaco I've been level 2 killing people with those champs since the beginning. Let me know what you mean by it hasn't always been that way, so I can understand just how far into potato you wish to go.

If anything, it's actually harder to gank top now due to mobility + additional utility + masteries. Because before your jungling options were Nunu Udyr Warwick Fiddlesticks Evelynn Shaco and every single one of them aside from two afk farmed till 6 creating the illusion that it "hasn't always been that way."

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Evelynn Shaco I've been level 2 killing people with those champs since the beginning. Let me know what you mean by it hasn't always been that way, so I can understand just how far into potato you wish to go.

If anything, it's actually harder to gank top now due to mobility + additional utility + masteries. Because before your jungling options were Nunu Udyr Warwick Fiddlesticks Evelynn Shaco and every single one of them aside from two afk farmed till 6 creating the illusion that it "hasn't always been that way."

Yes, you cheesed at level two with two champions known exclusively for that since their existence. Therefore, it's always been true for every champion on the roster. And how is it harder to gank too because of "utility and mobility" when that same mobility and utility applies to junglers as well. Top laners have lost the ability to ward as often in the longest lane in the game. Junglers also have gotten stalkers/challenging smite and do more damage or slow you from range, making their ganks even more effective. Give me actual real examples because all the champions you listed were cherry picked to illustrate your point. Lee existed, old Maokai existed, Jarvan existed, Vi existed. Your entire point is just a cherry picked sentiment of nonsensical garbage if we are being honest. You want to talk about potatoes here, maybe you should stop trying to count to them while posting. Come back when you actually make sense and have a point.

Puttyblo2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, you cheesed at level two with two champions known exclusively for that since their existence. Therefore, it's always been true for every champion on the roster. And how is it harder to gank too because of "utility and mobility" when that same mobility and utility applies to junglers as well. Top laners have lost the ability to ward as often in the longest lane in the game. Junglers also have gotten stalkers/challenging smite and do more damage or slow you from range, making their ganks even more effective. Give me actual real examples because all the champions you listed were cherry picked to illustrate your point. Lee existed, old Maokai existed, Jarvan existed, Vi existed. Your entire point is just a cherry picked sentiment of nonsensical garbage if we are being honest. You want to talk about potatoes here, maybe you should stop trying to count to them while posting. Come back when you actually make sense and have a point.

None of those champions you just listed existed until later in the game, and those champions level 2 gank as well. So, you just made my point even more apparent.

I also didn't cherry pick. You gave me a statement, I proved it false.

item 3715 item 3706 These are not obtained until later in the game. They also replace the previous jungle items that formerly existed.

"how is it harder to gank too because of "utility and mobility" when that same mobility and utility applies to junglers as well"

Because back in the day top laners spent gold on wards instead of pots or items. Those wards only lasted a set duration that was easily exploited in exchange for less sustain. They then proceeded to play stupidly regardless. Now, you get the same resources + a free ward. Additionally, junglers have 0 offensive choices in items to deal damage at the beginning of the game whereas before champs could start long sword, or really do whatever the hell they wanted. I can also extend this to bot lane where the support had 0 items but boots and were walking kills? Even mid lane being down several hundred gold from non stop ward gold wasted?

You also just answered your own question.

Due to the nature of the new junglers + new top laners going in at the wrong time means being counter ganked, or even reverse sweeps. If say Graves goes and Zac counters Graves more or less just gave top double buffs + lane. If you want a top lane example Galio Darius These champs can 2v1 extremely easily, and they're also very common.

As far as I'm concerned you are the top laner who has 0 macro qualities, dies repeatedly and then blames everyone but himself and constantly references "back in the day." When even his back in the day never even existed. Thank you for being free gold + LP and have a good day =).

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

None of those champions you just listed existed until later in the game, and those champions level 2 gank as well. So, you just made my point even more apparent.

I also didn't cherry pick. You gave me a statement, I proved it false.

item 3715 item 3706 These are not obtained until later in the game. They also replace the previous jungle items that formerly existed.

"how is it harder to gank too because of "utility and mobility" when that same mobility and utility applies to junglers as well"

Because back in the day top laners spent gold on wards instead of pots or items. Those wards only lasted a set duration that was easily exploited in exchange for less sustain. They then proceeded to play stupidly regardless. Now, you get the same resources + a free ward. Additionally, junglers have 0 offensive choices in items to deal damage at the beginning of the game whereas before champs could start long sword, or really do whatever the hell they wanted. I can also extend this to bot lane where the support had 0 items but boots and were walking kills? Even mid lane being down several hundred gold from non stop ward gold wasted?

You also just answered your own question.

Due to the nature of the new junglers + new top laners going in at the wrong time means being counter ganked, or even reverse sweeps. If say Graves goes and Zac counters Graves more or less just gave top double buffs + lane. If you want a top lane example Galio Darius These champs can 2v1 extremely easily, and they're also very common.

As far as I'm concerned you are the top laner who has 0 macro qualities, dies repeatedly and then blames everyone but himself and constantly references "back in the day." When even his back in the day never even existed. Thank you for being free gold + LP and have a good day =).

It's amazing that you write so much yet say so little. You specified champions without specifying a time. This is arbitrary. Are we talking s2? S3? Because if we are talking s2 and pre season 2, there just as many non mobile junglers as non mobile top laners. Mobility wasn't as apparent. Mobility isn't something that scaled with just laners, it scaled with just about every class in the game. So saying top lane got harder to gank because of mobility is incorrect. So yes, you did cherry pick your champions because you failed to mention a specific time. All of those champions have been popular at various times so it's not like there's one set time I can reference when you mention them. Furthermore, wards lasted longer than trinkets do. And you didn't have a cooldown on your vision. Moreover, you do see junglers get red smite/blue smite fairly early. Some don't need it but the ones who do greatly benefit while the laners have nothing in response to compensate for.

Everything you've said has been cherry picked or ad hominem. You aren't making actual points that disprove what I say, you're merely saying "but this guy was good once and he couldn't gank and this 2v2 is more chaotic than that 2v2!" These are specific instances that have always been generally true. I'm speaking from a place of generality. You're trying to disprove my general strength claims with isolated cases, which it doesn't work that way. Junglers are far more powerful now, that's all there is to it. There's no evidence that doesn't suggest the contrary. And for the laners, that's a shitty experience. I'm sorry you can't accept that we think junglers should actually have to think about the game before playing it. There's a reason why high elo players all say that the team with the best jungler wins the game. And while that's always been true to an extent, it's never been this immensely oppressive baring outliers like feral flare/sated devourer where you had junglers farming then killing everything. I'm going to stop wasting my time responding to you because you haven't said anything of value since you've posted here. I appreciate your time and effort but I cannot say the same for your analysis and understanding of the game.

Theorchero6 votes

{quoted}

If anything, it's actually harder to gank top now due to mobility + additional utility + masteries.

What.

Lol.

It's WAY easier to gank remotely competent players now than it has ever been because they can't purchase wards to defend themselves. Hell the entire situation we have now exists because lower elo players shit on supports by not warding at all, and instead of Riot being like, "you can buy wards too," they instead made it so that EVERYONE can't buy wards, so when you do get that retarded teammate who somehow climbed out of silver but never uses their trinket your entire team is crippled because one person can't buy more wards to make up for the vision control.

Salson3 votes

No, but if a jungler gets Syndra ulted, he should base, not get full hp from a scutle smite and a hp plant.

Kirius Dark10 votes

It's not just the jungles fault. People are just salty when they get ganked but a couple of major red flags problems are also indirectly responsible:

  1. Towers being too weak HP and damage wise. Kill or push the laners off and bot lane + jungle can 100-0 a tower
  2. Lack of wards super early. No sightstone yet and only trinket ward charges available. Adding something in the mastery tree to give a free ward in starting inventory would relieve a lot of level 2-3 ganking potential. AKA bring back the explorer ward

Jungle camps, plants, items and champs have already been nerfed multiple times over that it's really not their fault anymore. The other roles and lanes need to be adjusted to deal with it

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t4VXQyhm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-02T15:15:25.350+0000)

It's not just the jungles fault. People are just salty when they get ganked but a couple of major red flags problems are also indirectly responsible

  1. Towers being too weak HP and damage wise. Kill or push the laners off and bot lane + jungle can 100-0 a tower
  2. Lack of wards super early. No sightstone yet and only trinket ward charges available. Adding something in the mastery tree to give a free green ward in starting inventory would relieve a lot of level 2-3 ganking potential

Jungle camps, plants, items and champs have already been nerfed multiple times over that it's really not their fault anymore. The other roles and lanes need to be adjusted to deal with it

I'm being salty yet you agree with roughly everything I said by virtue of your proposals being hand in hand with mine? Lol

Kirius Dark9 votes

Did I say you were salty? I said people are when they get ganked because people dont like being ganked but what else is the jungler supposed to do when AFK farm mode is highly discouraged unlike the feral flare era but that wasnt fun either

I'm just saying rather than nerfing the jungle and junglers again, adjust the others

HateDaddy7 votes

Then why mention "players being salty" when they get ganked? It feels like you're trying to passively aggressively call me out. There's no explanation for such a statement otherwise.

And as for changing everything else aside from vision and towers, they have and it hasn't worked. There's no diversity in the jungle and snowball junglers are too good. This just reflects the games problems on a grander scale.

Quort7 votes

Your name is HateDaddy... aren't you salty most of the time? xD

jaymc11303 votes

I'll admit, the severe impact to laning and increased efficiency of the jungle role to expedite games in the last 2 and a half years is the biggest factor in why I'm sitting out this season.

Lanes should matter again.

Just because I pick jg I shouldn't auto win my games. I should still at least have to battle a little bit. Stomps are boring and fun for no one.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

You don't auto win by jungling though, unless being good at Zac or Ivern who both have monstrous winrates if things havent changed too much.

¨Most people truly have to work for their snowball and progress, it's not just walk into enemy lane and grab a penta before taking baron 10 minutes in and ending at 14.

Jungling is an art, a role that demands patience and time to learn as well as good judgement to succeed as.

As long as the enemy laners are playing well, if they are boosted and keep overextending giving you free kills then that's not really your fault for snowballing.

Kinda like the Yasuo i played against last night, he kept pushing me down under turret where i simply engaged on him whenever my jungler was close enough and in the end his laning ended 0-6-0.

Meanwhile my jungler went and took the easily gained gold and smashed enemy botlane with it.

Then i killed Yasuo and his jungler 1v2 when they tried to stop me from taking his towers.

Twice.

People call the junglers OP, but there is a difference in a 0,0,0 lee sin ganking and a 7,0,0 lee sin coming to gank.

Because one might burn your flash, the other will beyond any doubt kill you and your support, maybe your pets too while he´s at it, and similar things goes for nearly any other jungler out there.

jaymc11302 votes

{quoted}

You don't auto win by jungling though, unless being good at Zac or Ivern who both have monstrous winrates if things havent changed too much.

¨Most people truly have to work for their snowball and progress, it's not just walk into enemy lane and grab a penta before taking baron 10 minutes in and ending at 14.

Jungling is an art, a role that demands patience and time to learn as well as good judgement to succeed as.

As long as the enemy laners are playing well, if they are boosted and keep overextending giving you free kills then that's not really your fault for snowballing.

Kinda like the Yasuo i played against last night, he kept pushing me down under turret where i simply engaged on him whenever my jungler was close enough and in the end his laning ended 0-6-0.

Meanwhile my jungler went and took the easily gained gold and smashed enemy botlane with it.

Then i killed Yasuo and his jungler 1v2 when they tried to stop me from taking his towers.

Twice.

People call the junglers OP, but there is a difference in a 0,0,0 lee sin ganking and a 7,0,0 lee sin coming to gank.

Because one might burn your flash, the other will beyond any doubt kill you and your support, maybe your pets too while he´s at it, and similar things goes for nearly any other jungler out there.

Well maybe for lower level players it doesn't feel so auto winny. If auto winny is like an actual word. I've been a top 1% player for years and even in high level matches I felt like if I got to jungle I was just gonna cruise. It does feel to me like "walk into lane, get penta, take baron at 10, 5 stacked drakes at 20, gg ended at 22." Which is ludicrous exaggeration, but that's the best way to describe how I feel about it the last 2 seasons.

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

I've been a top 1% player for years ... take baron at 10

jaymc11305 votes

{quoted}

...

{quoted}

ludicrous exaggeration

nice table2 votes

people actually like farm junglers? what?

ChaosThief5 votes

Farm junglers actually provided a nice balance in season two, from what I've heard.

We had Ganking junglers, Counterjunglers and farming junglers.

Ganking junglers would go for an early lead and push that lead to try and win.

Counterjunglers would shut down the opposing jungler, allowing for lanes to fight on their own terms. Typically counterjunglers could also assist lanes as well and secure objectives pretty easily.

And Farming junglers who would use the jungle as a means of safety. They typically cleared the jungle very quickly, and would around mid game appear and start mauling unsuspecting enemies.

Honestly in a game where all of these apply, it sounds like a lot of fun instead of "Both teams have gankers, who gets early lead first? They win."

nice table3 votes

i mean counter junglers and gankers are fine but farming junglers are just super aids and always have been, remember udyr, yi and shyvana before? you could never fight them, you lost the 2v2 or 3v3 always if they showed up at the same time and if your team didn't win pre 20 min you autolost.

ChaosThief2 votes

That was during a time where farming junglers literally had an item dedicated to them which gave an incredible power spike. Farming junglers back in the day would have to wait for 2-3 items, usually an item ahead of the laners, which would take a fairly long time, not just 20 camps and boom devourer is stacked.

In other words, they had an actual gold lead. They had to work for this, clearing the jungle as fast as they can. Meanwhile, their lanes can be taken down by the ganking jungler, or their lanes can simply lose, and they can do nothing to stop it. They weren't 1v5 gods.

nice table3 votes

"they had to work for this" you mean they afked in their jungle for 20 minutes of the game with fun interactive gameplay where one team was hoping their laners would win the game before the farm jungler popped off and the other team was hoping to hold on? really don't see whats so great about not interacting with the game for 20 minutes and then coming in stronger than everyone else.

SirLapse4 votes

The whole farming aspect was different at that time. Spawn timers were a lot more frequent and the emphasis was on clearing as many as you could before going to gank.

Junglers during this season were the lowest level barring the support typically, because EXP was pretty dry in the jungle. There was a lot more gold to go around however if you could sustain the farm.

That being said, getting your blue or red taken was huge those days since they were crucial to your EXP. We didn't have Gromp/Wight camp or evolved Krugs.

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