I hope Riot understands why there are many people who have issues with tank buffs

HateDaddy··4 votes·1,111 views

Let me make myself clear, I absolutely believe tanks need some love and defensive items are still largely underwhelming. However, when tank buffs come, let’s understand the historical context behind them. Almost always, we enter a tank meta, where for many of us, the game is absolutely unfun. It’s not because suddenly tanks are doing their jobs, it’s because tanks show up to lane and out-trade you with great safety while outscaling you (this is primarily a top lane issue).

Think about all the tank metas we’ve had sans the season 4 tank meta, where I believe tanks were actually the most balanced they’d ever been. Every single tank meta after that point has had tanks enter abusive play styles that focus on their ability to solo kill champions rather than allow their utility and durability to shine. As a result, many tanks have lost a lot of direct power in the way of durability nerfs, cc reduction and general base stat nerfs. In return, they’ve often time received damage buffs in compensation.

To me, this is where it becomes unfun. I understand tanks need damage, but often times their damage seems highly over the top and totally unnecessary. Look at champions like Poppy, Nauitlius, Malphite, Gragas (tank jungler; not AP mid), and more. They all have the same abusive damage output that practically forces everything melee out of lane and everything ranged into lane to counter them. As a result, you have tanks that only shine because of their damage. And quite frankly, having a nautilus spam E off cooldown while ignoring all of my damage is the most unfun thing in the world. You shouldn’t reward low-skill play with high reward output in the means of damage because damage isn’t very hard to manage. Tanks are unique and their difficulty lies in when to use their abilities, not the execution of them. Needless to say, this goes out the window when their damage is so over the top in such basic kits. Their kits are basic though so they can function as tanks.

This brings my last point up and likely one people won’t like. Removing tank damage likely removes them from solo lanes. Is that really a bad thing? In my mind, tanks function incredibly well as junglers and supports. Their designs are by far the least abused these roles. Sure, it might not be the most enjoyable experience but when they’re picked in these roles, it’s because their utility is valued. When they’re picked in solo lane roles, it’s because their damage is valued. And I find that to be inherently flawed because basically the only way for a tank to excel in a solo lane is for them to break their limits on what they’re designed to do. As a result, they aren’t even allowed to be as durable as they should be and in many cases, less reliable as well. And in the end, they die late game all the same when carries buy percentage pen. If tanks weren’t such huge damage threats, I’d have no problem with many of them being mega durable late game then and this probably would give some prospect to their “late game fantasy” that tanks really haven’t had since season 1 and season 2.

16 Comments

Aptest2 votes

abusive play styles that focus on their ability to solo kill champions

Which is what champions like Jax are known for. Unfortunately, this "abusive play style" is exactly what top lane players are looking for in a champion. Which is why people play jax, irelia (the old one?), trynd, olaf etc.

Unfortunately this is the case. If we want tanks in the game someone has to play them and this means tanks should out-trade some picks. I don't think the solution is to completely shift all tanks into the jungle because the exact same scenario you are describing for top will become in the jungle. The jungler players will have some version of the same sob story you're telling to sell their view on how top lane is where tanks should go, and not jungle.

Tanks used to have their spot on top lane. That was when early game champions that relied on abilities were more prevelant. And then tanks could out-scale and out-trade those champions while still losing to 2-item jax. But now we have a situation where those crush-lane-but-fall have better item options to scale up and/or to item against tank counters (BC and death's dance items being top culprits). I have a creeping sensation that removing the tiamat item line + removing death's dance, and then making sure the rivens and renektons have a better time in top lane with subsequent buffs (bc has to get nerfed though), will allow tanks to come back to top lane IN A HEALTHY WAY (that is a complex change: you have to buff the rivens, but at the same time nerf their core items to kill their scaling, and also to make the jax and trynd lose a lot of wave control as opposed to renekton and riven).

The way I look at it, we gotta find some way to make jungle and top share the burden. because "tanks are better in jungle" (I also believe this, btw. I strongly believe tanks are healthiest for the game as jungle champions, and that jungle role is healthiest when there is a clear jungle tank meta) is strongly opposed for exactly your reasons by jungle players (despite how they will couch their objections with "I have to contest scuttle and this means I have to play a damage champion" rethoric - we can see that they gravitate towards playing jax and trynd and noc and rengar whenever the meta permits)

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Which is what champions like Jax are known for. Unfortunately, this "abusive play style" is exactly what top lane players are looking for in a champion. Which is why people play jax, irelia (the old one?), trynd, olaf etc.

Unfortunately this is the case. If we want tanks in the game someone has to play them and this means tanks should out-trade some picks. I don't think the solution is to completely shift all tanks into the jungle because the exact same scenario you are describing for top will become in the jungle. The jungler players will have some version of the same sob story you're telling to sell their view on how top lane is where tanks should go, and not jungle.

Tanks used to have their spot on top lane. That was when early game champions that relied on abilities were more prevelant. And then tanks could out-scale and out-trade those champions while still losing to 2-item jax. But now we have a situation where those crush-lane-but-fall have better item options to scale up and/or to item against tank counters (BC and death's dance items being top culprits). I have a creeping sensation that removing the tiamat item line + removing death's dance, and then making sure the rivens and renektons have a better time in top lane with subsequent buffs (bc has to get nerfed though), will allow tanks to come back to top lane IN A HEALTHY WAY (that is a complex change: you have to buff the rivens, but at the same time nerf their core items to kill their scaling, and also to make the jax and trynd lose a lot of wave control as opposed to renekton and riven).

The way I look at it, we gotta find some way to make jungle and top share the burden. because "tanks are better in jungle" (I also believe this, btw. I strongly believe tanks are healthiest for the game as jungle champions, and that jungle role is healthiest when there is a clear jungle tank meta) is strongly opposed for exactly your reasons by jungle players (despite how they will couch their objections with "I have to contest scuttle and this means I have to play a damage champion" rethoric - we can see that they gravitate towards playing jax and trynd and noc and rengar whenever the meta permits)

I don’t really think bruisers are abusive though. Certainly there are cases where they are or have some abusive features. For example, I think jax’s E has too much uptime because he was a champion that never really purchased CDR, now his main item gives him 20%. If you throw Maw in there, you are sitting at 30%. Needless to say, if you were that committed, Jax could easily obtain 40% in a very workable build. Outside of that, Jax is fine. He’s a weaker team fighter generally but if the meta lacks zone control champions (mages/tanks/several different supports), Jax is excels since he naturally counters AA based champions (but counter strike still has a lot of counterplay but that’s less noticeable when it’s so spammable late game).

Aptest1 votes

{quoted}

show up to lane and out-trade you with great safety while outscaling you... play styles that focus on their ability to solo kill champions rather than allow their utility and durability to shine

This is the element which is abusive. It is abusive whether it appears on a bruiser, on a mage, on an assassin, on an ADC or on a tank. I think it is not correct to state, that this trait does not exist for Jax or for Olaf or for Trynd or for some other champions. I do not understand why you disagree with me, you clearly state what you think is abusive, the only thing is you put the tag "tank" in there and that's simply not correct you see this pattern with a bunch of other champions out there. For instance we see the exact same phrasing used against ADCs in any meta where ADCs are strong.

So with this respect, Jax and Trynd are abusive: very much so. But is this a bad thing? on the whole I would say, no. Every champion should have high points and that means some way of shitting on an opponent. So every champion needs some kind of access to being abusive, and jax's "shtick" is to be able to 1v1 his lane opponent past a certain point in the game (CAVEAT: although i do think jax should be made more vulnerable to spell damage).

Now back to tanks. What are tanks supposed to do as opposed to a jax? they are supposed to group up with their team and drop their big CC on some poor schmuck and have their team delete said schmuck. A tank is supposed to roam into the enemy jungle with his jungler and pick a fight with the enemy jungler. He is supposed to roam mid and dive the enemy mid laner. He is supposed to be at dragon and team fight at dragon. As opposed to Jax, who is supposed to split push (unless he has a strong jungle tank on his team, who can lead for him in team fights, then he is a beast teamfighter).

ideally, when we look at jax vs naut on top lane, jax is suppsoed to win lane -> win game, whereas nautilus is supposed to lose lane -> win game. The balanced situation is that naut actually loses the 1v1 to the jax, but is actually capable of pushing the jax enough, such that he can group up with his team and do other things that make the game win.

What happens if we remove these options for the tank player? how do we do that? we improve on jax's wave control by adding tiamat and thus allow him to reach enemy tower really fast, we let jax kill towers really really fast, such that jax on a tower is a heavy punish, and in this we shut down the value of the nautilus roaming, and we give jax early sustain options such that naut can't shove him out of lane early with his low damage to gain access to roam opportunities.

What makes bruisers like Jax a problem in particular is not their ability to 1v1 an opponent. rather it's their ability to force an opponent to stay in lane and chaperon them, due to their strong anti-objective ability. forcing an opponent to stay in lane negates the value of non-dueling strengths such team fighting, strong roams, ability to poach jungle (remember Darian's Shyvana?). Because these champions are able to push so effectively, every counter pick has to mirror their 1v1 strength in lane because the option of not being as strong in lane is so heavily punished.

Back to the original complaint. Top lane tank metas where tanks out-1v1 late game scaling champions (tanks should out-1v1 a riven or a renekton or a garen past a certain point in the game). We want tanks to be viable, but we don't want them to win in 1v1? so we have to give them an alternative win condition. the renekton's win condition should be crush lane early (or get outscaled). The tank win condition is get your core items, and group (or have the splitter kill you and take your tower), and the carry win condition is farm safely, then split push (or the renekton kills your early game and snowballs you out of the game).

The entire problem in top lane is that we've removed the alternative win condition over the years and are left with a one dimensional lane. Since the lane is one dimensional the trait that are good in it is one dimensional (kill your opponent) and we get to the situation you are complaining about: tanks winning against your jax in 1v1, when actually they should be losing.

Ok, we want tanks in the game in a healthy way. What does that mean? for top lane, it means roams should be made more viable, and scaling champions should be made worse at punishing them by choosing to stay in lane and shove, and the access of early lane bullies to anti-tank items should be reduced.

This doesn't address the issue of tanks not being fun. which is a separate issue which should be also addressed.

PapaGreg211 votes

The recent buffs to tanks were largely small and some of them were even nerfed pretty hard (Kench). None of the buffs were damage buffs so the only changes that are going forward right now are that tanks have some higher defensive stats. On your other point, tanks currently function awful as junglers. Look at the playrate for tanks in the jungle. Camps are giving less experience than ever and we are still in a jungle meta where early duelists are thriving because you HAVE to get a scuttle early or you'll fall way behind everybody else. I think your argument would be more effective if you pointed out some of the buffs that were recently given and critique them specifically.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

The recent buffs to tanks were largely small and some of them were even nerfed pretty hard (Kench). None of the buffs were damage buffs so the only changes that are going forward right now are that tanks have some higher defensive stats. On your other point, tanks currently function awful as junglers. Look at the playrate for tanks in the jungle. Camps are giving less experience than ever and we are still in a jungle meta where early duelists are thriving because you HAVE to get a scuttle early or you'll fall way behind everybody else. I think your argument would be more effective if you pointed out some of the buffs that were recently given and critique them specifically.

I am speaking from a general point, I’m not speaking to specific changes Riot has made recently. The buffs they just gave weren’t all that great and in the same breath, there are tanks like Poppy that are very strong. This is coming from a stand point where I am concerned Riot will slowly do these things over time. That’s my greatest concern.

As for your point regarding junglers, there’s no doubt tanks need help in the jungle. I am not against that at all. I am all for Riot doing something to kill AD junglers strangle hold on it because they’ve been far too superior for far too long.

Acanthus1 votes

Not to sound like a jerk anything, but at least being run down with a wet noodle gives you more time to act or get away than .3 second deletion. If someone that is purely armor and hp is getting run down by a 1 stat wonder champ (basically just ad/lethality), that's not really healthy. You would expect the one with defensive items to be able to take down the super squishy one with decent base stats. But you would similarly expect someone with a item 3153item 3036oritem 3071 , item 3151item 3116, or item 3086item 3031 to be able to take down tanks because they were itemized for it. Nowadays, you can just kind of kill anything with builds made for deleting squishies.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Not to sound like a jerk anything, but at least being run down with a wet noodle gives you more time to act or get away than .3 second deletion. If someone that is purely armor and hp is getting run down by a 1 stat wonder champ (basically just ad/lethality), that's not really healthy. You would expect the one with defensive items to be able to take down the super squishy one with decent base stats. But you would similarly expect someone with a item 3153item 3036oritem 3071 , item 3151item 3116, or item 3086item 3031 to be able to take down tanks because they were itemized for it. Nowadays, you can just kind of kill anything with builds made for deleting squishies.

You can’t react though because once a tank is on top of you, he only gets off by two ways: being merciful or by death.

Acanthus1 votes

TTK from true tanks is high enough that you can stall for teammates, flash, dash, or blink over a wall, CC and run, get to a blast fruit to gain distance. Hell, if the tank in question has a high cd for its cc or only has soft cc off ulti (like malphite), you can just straight run. I don't know where you're getting this fatalistic mentality from.

For the record, I could literally say the same thing about assassins right now, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not give you sass.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

TTK from true tanks is high enough that you can stall for teammates, flash, dash, or blink over a wall, CC and run, get to a blast fruit to gain distance. Hell, if the tank in question has a high cd for its cc or only has soft cc off ulti (like malphite), you can just straight run. I don't know where you're getting this fatalistic mentality from.

Also, I could literally say the same thing about assassins right now.

TTK?

And most tanks have incredibly spammable CC due to the easy access of CDR. All of these hypothetical situations you are mentioning equally apply to the tank and depend entirely on circumstances. As an example, the tank can simply flash when you flash. Many tanks also have pretty decent chasing tools as well. As for your malphite example, you’re pretending that if you’re a squishy target, you’ll survive after getting hit by his combo. Keep in mind, I play many of these tanks I can promise you sticking to something isn’t a problem a tank has once itemized properly.

And your assassins example is flawed: assassins are designed to kill you quickly, therefore have good sticking power (but sticking power that requires significantly higher skill to execute and the fact that assassins fucking up means they die; tanks fucking up means they walk away).

Acanthus1 votes

TTK = Time to Kill

It's not terribly hard to survive a tank combo these days. Tanks invariably deal magic damage and the best defensive passives/actives for survival are on offensive items. item 3111 item 3139 item 3156 item 3046 item 3812 item 3026 item 3102 item 3157

Please, tell me Rengar Talon Evelynn Fizz Kassadin Kayn Leblanc MasterYi Nocturne Zed require high skill to execute their executions. And no, currently, tanks fucking up equals death. Often success can bring death, as they do not always survive their initiates/engages for their team.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

TTK = Time to Kill

It's not terribly hard to survive a tank combo these days. Tanks invariably deal magic damage and the best defensive passives/actives for survival are on offensive items. item 3111 item 3139 item 3156 item 3046 item 3812 item 3026 item 3102 item 3157

Please, tell me Rengar Talon Evelynn Fizz Kassadin Kayn Leblanc MasterYi Nocturne Zed require high skill to execute their executions. And no, currently, tanks fucking up equals death. Often success can bring death, as they do not always survive their initiates/engages for their team.

For starters, I absolutely agree tanks are in a bad spot right now but I’ve also stressed countless times that I’m afraid riots buffs will amount to defensive increases but damage buffs as well. Secondly, champions like Poppy, Malphite, Maokai and Gragas can still pop squishies and handle several bruisers. Lastly, yes many of those champions require extremely high amounts of skill to execute their combos. Are you seriously saying zed and tanks require the same amount of skill?

Acanthus1 votes

{quoted}

For starters, I absolutely agree tanks are in a bad spot right now but I’ve also stressed countless times that I’m afraid riots buffs will amount to defensive increases but damage buffs as well. Secondly, champions like Poppy, Malphite, Maokai and Gragas can still pop squishies and handle several bruisers. Lastly, yes many of those champions require extremely high amounts of skill to execute their combos. Are you seriously saying zed and tanks require the same amount of skill?

Poppy is in a weird situation where she can build like a bruiser because she can build ad. I think that can be fixed by nerfing her ratios. Everyone else you mentioned either has clear weaknesses (Malphite will not do nearly as well against magic damage), have to build squishy to deal damage (Gragas), or require conditions to get their full damage (Maokai need brush). As for skill, yes, they require the same amount, but of a different type of skill. Poppy requires a macro skill of getting people to fight where she wants, for example. Actually, most tanks require a macro skill, whereas many assassins require microing skill (Zed being a prime example). But let's be honest, once you've attained a certain level of microing skill, you have a champion that is mechanically superior to nearly the rest of the roster and thus have access to more power. It's the same with superior tanks. Once you have an appropriate level of macro skill, you have a disproportionate amount of power to throw around. Do I agree with it? No, not really. I'd sooner bring all assassins AND tanks into line so that there are clear trade offs for their superiority, but league has always been like this where anything gated behind "skill" allows for unfair advantages and creates a tier list for champions. On the bruiser side Irelia is a clear example of having the best of both worlds. If you have the macro skill to control waves of minions and your resets AND the micro skill to pull off chain combos and your damage reduction at the best moments, you have a blatantly more capable champion than nearly all of the roster.

Off-topic, I'm enjoying having a real discussion with you with these different viewpoints.

Aptest1 votes

{quoted}

Poppy is in a weird situation...

Tanks in general are in a weird situation where they are really useful to have around but very few people really want to play them. They are kind of like a hot potato that everybody shoves on to the next guy on the list how many times have you heard "tank top" or "tank jungle" or "tank sup" in champ select from some guy who just locked in a DPSer ?

This sentiment is reflected in this thread, actually.

Acanthus1 votes

That's a thing in every game all the time. Tanks perform a valuable service and do a lot of things that aren't immediately rewarding to the player like damage, kills, or even healing. In a game like league, where historically tanks survived longer measured in seconds, this was typically made up for in crowd control, or in the case of bruisers, damage, but the design philosophy has been steadily been rewarding and incentivizing aggressive play. You can actually go back and read posts from just about every season where they would nerf or remove defensive things, especially sustain, because they would encourage passive play. I'm not disagreeing with those things, I've been around long enough to remember how annoying those strategies actually were, but there is a clear trend where champions who used those strategies weren't always properly compensated because those that were and given things like more hard cc or cooperative mechanics to facilitate that offensive trend became monsters in higher elo and organized play (hi ZacSejuani). Others who had been given high base stats and safety nets instead were similarly gutted (Ornn for being too strong in general). If I'm being honest, I think these problems will always be in league unless they rework or otherwise change how armor and magic resist mechanics work. If they were stats that could be worn down and rendered less effective with prolonged fighting and replenished out of combat, or something of that nature instead of being a %damage reduction that gets less effective as you get more of it, it might be healthier, but that would require rebalancing the whole game like with runes reforged, and it might not be taken well.

TheSingularity1 votes

You can’t react though because once a tank is on top of you, he only gets off by two ways: being merciful or by death.

Tbh there are plenty of champs who will smash tanks. With conqueror and the abundance of mixed damage, even with CC most tanks will never come close to winning a 1v1 unless they're uber fed, in which case they most certainly should be winning 1v1's.

Anivia Ashe AurelionSol Azir Brand Cassiopeia Ekko Ezreal Fizz Graves Heimerdinger Irelia Jax Jinx Kaisa Karthus Kayle Kindred Kled KogMaw MasterYi Rumble Teemo Trundle Twitch Udyr Varus Vayne Veigar Velkoz Vi Vladimir Swain Warwick Xayah XinZhao Yasuo Zyra

As long as they've got an MR item, be it banshees, scimitar, maw or a visage. They should crush a tank 1v1 if they're both even.

I understand your fears especially if riot takes it too far. Even as someone who loves tanks I don't want a full on tank meta like the first half of season 5. I just want them balanced and viable. Because they enable one of the healthiest meta's I have ever experienced and probably my favorite meta ever. Because I could do anything I want and I could make it work If they don't fuck it up, league will be in a near perfect state where everything is viable, like at the end of season 5 (post sej nerfs). It's like League's circle of life. If tanks are necessary we need marksman/dot mages, to kill them we need burst mages, to kill both the mages and marksman we need assassins/divers/juggernauts/skirmishers, then we need mages/tanks/enchanters to peel those. And then we need tanks to face tank the CC/peel/burst.

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