@Riot, i don't understand why you can't listen to the player's feedback BEFORE releasing a feature.

Seviel Vorose··71 votes·2,928 views

The game would be that much better.

The BE system is atrocious.

Getting IP/BE after a game was the most intuitive game mechanic ever. It just felt natural. Now it's all about the lootboxes, which feels very bad. The worst thing is, if i need 200 BE/IP to get a champion, i'll have to wait for the next level or for 4 FWOTD (first win of the day) to get it. In what way is this new system better than the old? Why did you need to change it in the first place?

The game balance is horrible and biased.

And the last mistake you made was releasing Zoe in this state. Her E is broken, and you overtuned her Q damage because "it's her only damaging spell". Wrong. I'm a Syndra main. I'll never forget patch 6.9 You refused to listen to Syndra mains and introduced the multi-sphere grab mechanic. You know what happened next. It took you 6 months to realise it was a broken mechanic. If you would have listened to our feedback before releasing it, Syndra would have never been broken towards the end of season 6.

You MUST listen to the community feedback BEFORE introducing a change. I don't have to remind you the testing ground is the PBE, not the Live Servers.

56 Comments

koshkyra29 votes

Something atrocious is on the PBE

PBE People: riot this is bad dont let it into live

Riot: nah its okay lets just give it some time to settle into the game and itll work out

Live Server People: riot its been a week and this is still broken

Riot: we need more time to find the exact problem with it, should fix it in patch [insert patch number x three patches from now here]

Everyone on boards and in-game: RIOT WE ALL AGREE THAT THIS IS THE PROBLEM PLEASE FIX THIS

patch number x notes: we'll be fixing something that has nothing to do with what everyone agrees is the actual problem

Cavesloth3 votes

{quoted}

Something atrocious is on the PBE

PBE People: riot this is bad dont let it into live

Riot: nah its okay lets just give it some time to settle into the game and itll work out

Live Server People: riot its been a week and this is still broken

Riot: we need more time to find the exact problem with it, should fix it in patch [insert patch number x three patches from now here]

Everyone on boards and in-game: RIOT WE ALL AGREE THAT THIS IS THE PROBLEM PLEASE FIX THIS

patch number x notes: we'll be fixing something that has nothing to do with what everyone agrees is the actual problem

Riot in a nutshell.

Teridax687 votes

While I don't think Riot completely ignores feedback every time they release a feature, they do tend to stonewall feedback on any sort of big addition that enters the PBE, and even after that problematic feature gets released to Live, they continue to defend it for an extended period of time. Part of it does stem from a legitimate concern: any sort of game feedback forum skews negative, and many of the players complaining about a feature on the PBE haven't tested it yet, so they do expect their features to be complained about even if they do turn out successful. However, I feel Riot takes it a little too far, and simply assumes that all of the complaining is unfounded and malicious, even when it comes from players trying to help. Additionally, I think to this day Riot still doesn't really understand how sample sizes work: spaces like Gameplay and Reddit are continually dismissed as only a small fraction of the total playerbase, and therefore unimportant, while also failing to mention that these are nonetheless two of the largest communities that consistently give detailed feedback on League. This is why it often takes Riot months to go back on features that have been nearly unanimously criticized across practically every League-related internet space.

In general, Riot's communication strategy has become increasingly distant and opaque, and as a result the bond of mutual trust and respect that was once central to League's player-developer relationship has severely degraded over the years. Rioters routinely mention that they do get feedback from reliable sources, but fail to mention what those sources are or how we can access them, let alone give any sort of indication to the average player on how their voice can be heard. As a result, we players often accuse Riot of being out of touch and destructively selfish, which I think is largely untrue, but I feel Riot also has been treating players less than respectfully, going beyond simply defending their work, and outright belittling and disenfranchizing players who make valid complaints. We saw this recently with Riot's stance on BE, where they completely ignored how most players felt about the milestoning of currency, and instead pretended for a while that everyone was wrong simply because their (flawed) math told them that currency gains had increased across the board. There is a massive amount of work that needs to be put into reestablishing proper communications channels, which should likely include an overhaul to Gameplay, but it doesn't seem like that's a priority right now, even though it should be.

MysterQ6 votes

Riot SHOULD give us smaller lootboxes and give us back BE per win/loss.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tLzqzFp6-375750-be-till-i-am-done It should not take 7 years to get caught up. Riot keeps talking about "equal or slightly faster" well the game keeps growing, it should be faster for new players!

Oleandervine6 votes

My belief is that if Zoe had been tested more in development, she wouldn't have released as is. There are inherent flaws in how she operates that generated the need for such overblown Qs and Es, and the fact that her skill cap is through the roof is indicative of greater problems. Her kit needs to be rebalanced entirely, and power trimmed out of Q and E and shifted into her (nearly) dead W and barely there passive.

If Q was only capable of a smaller boost of damage, but still dealing semi-reasonable damage without landing it from 50 bajillion miles away, it would be a better skill - new players could grasp her, and skilled players could pull out her potential. The same holds true for E. The trap portion is what most new players will be capable of, but the landing it on who they want is indicative of skill. The true damage portion of it should be gutted out of it entirely, and it should instead do something similar to Abyssal Mask, amplifying one type of damage so it's a bit more of a niche skill. W should have some kind of active if it's not got a stolen spell in it. Either something that will cause a balloon to appear on a minion, or some very diluted version of the speed/zap bubbles from using summoners. If it's going to stay as it is, BALLOONS SHOULD APPEAR ON EVERY MINION WAVE. Not having one of your 4 summoner spells is completely ridiculous, especially since it doesn't do anything and what it does do hinges off of your panic button spells. If LeBlanc's R can do something when it's not mimicking one of her other spells, Zoe's W should do something too.

duck4202 votes

it 1 shots adc's and the sleep stun is fuckin op

Oleandervine1 votes

This is irrelevant because I already said power needs to be shifted out of Q and E and into hee W and passive.

TotalJerk5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seviel Vorose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3BzRxIE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-24T20:44:43.896+0000)

i don't understand why you can't listen to the player's feedback BEFORE releasing a feature

Skarner

Abibyama2 votes

60% Winrate PTSD

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Skarner

People always forget about that shit.

Warios4 votes

It looks like you don't like the new BE system, I am not crazy about it either, but just because they don't do what you think is right, does not mean they don't listen.

Few changes here that seem to come from player feedback.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/BQed8FWz-leveling-and-rewards-improvements-to-milestone-emotes-capsules-fwotd

swanington11 votes

But as the OP said, this is all after the fact. They had time to test this out before implementation and clearly did a poor job doing so.

They tend to ignore the majority of player base desires so long as they think they'll still make some money off it (i.e. emotes still got released despite having the most negative community feedback in memory).

I guarantee every time they do this they lose some players. However probably not enough for them to wince at. But eventually they will have to change their attitude towards the player base or it could sink them (look at what happened to WoW). Repeated dismissal of your customers wants will drive them away. Like if you went to a barber and they only cut your hair how they wanted and ignored your requests. You're going to find another barber.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Because most of the time player feedback sucks and is 100% utterly wrong

Seviel Vorose16 votes

Like the Syndra changes in 6.9, right? Like the Ezreal buffs? Release Ekko, release Yasuo? I have so many examples of how badly they release their features on the live servers.

Kai Guy2 votes

Yas on release was considered bad and the community tilted if you picked him. Riot does derp but I don't think its fair to cherry pick mistakes that get corrected and ignore the things they did correctly. Xin on release was god dam awful btw.

iamthegoatofwar8 votes

Yasuo was considered bad because no one really knew how he worked for a while. Personally I was some low elo trash who one tricked yasuo for a while and it carried me to gold on mid/top...so long as top didn't have renekton/darius.

duck4202 votes

bruh the forums isnt for ur pussy ass compliments its a constructive forum meant to improve the game by pointing out its weaknesses. btw i dont really think they fucking care if it is a good game as long as they are racking in the cash from the new BE system that gives less IP per game

Warkinge12 votes

Like Assassins Rework? Leblanc Rework? Rengar Rework? I'm okay with you Riot suck at testing things before adding them to the game.

RizHippoKhan2 votes

remember release camille?

LordGeovanni1 votes

the extremely weak champion that got nerfed several times because people didnt react to her dash tell aka the hooks fireing but claimed she has a super fast dash when it takes 3 seconds for the whole dash to go through. ezreal fired 2 q's by then and have the 3rd 1 ready. also crying about courage of the collussus because tanks had a long cooldown shield that is useless for part of its up time in 1v1's they had to buff her q but buffing her q was the wrong think she needed. Stacking shields except when overlaying over shields that lose stat boosts and damage effects when broken is the most inefficent thing in the entirety of league

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Can we stop crying about BE thing ?? this shit have nothing to do with gameplay !!

For the rest i don't disagree... but i don't totaly agree in same time. Most of time we can read too much BS from this board (mainly cause most here are silver-gold and don't understand this game). But yeah, riot should communicate more with x mains when they rework a champ. Since they stopped class rework they also stopped to speak with the comminuty.

duck4202 votes

so playing the starting like 7 champs they give you for 5 years is quality gameplay oh wait no of fucking course its not. you think its fun to be limited to a very small number of champs in a giant pool of mechanics and playstyles???? it only makes the game less fun by making it harder for you to find he champ you synergize with.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Im not f*cking dumb enough to need to test all champ to know whats synergize with my playstyle. What's interest me is gameplay thing (thats why i look at gameplay section), if someone want to be good at the game and go out of bronzerino or any low elo, they wont need 100 champs.

Most here complain just for complain, low elos like to complain about useless and irrevelant things... like all this BE BS. Complaining about it is okay, spamming thread about it isnt. This thing isnt important enough to force like taht.

WolfChases2 votes

List is much longer dude...take a look at this:

  1. Tears of the Kindred mains - She was broken on release, Kindred mains cane up with a lot of awesome solutions for her yet Ruot refused to listen. Guess what? Kindred is garbage tier.

  2. Assassins rework - Even tho I think some of them are more balanced yet better to plat with or against eg: Rengar, others are either garbage, pocketpicks or broken even more.

  3. Marksman update - Lets reduce the cost od their itemization, let's buff supports and give them some flashy items that indirectly buff ADCs and lets make ADCs do what assassins were able to do just a little bit later in the game. Because well, Teitch, Xayah and Vayne can literally assassinate you late game.

  4. Ezreal

  5. Yoric

DNFVixen1 votes

{quoted}

List is much longer dude...take a look at this:

  1. Tears of the Kindred mains - She was broken on release, Kindred mains cane up with a lot of awesome solutions for her yet Ruot refused to listen. Guess what? Kindred is garbage tier.

  2. Assassins rework - Even tho I think some of them are more balanced yet better to plat with or against eg: Rengar, others are either garbage, pocketpicks or broken even more.

  3. Marksman update - Lets reduce the cost od their itemization, let's buff supports and give them some flashy items that indirectly buff ADCs and lets make ADCs do what assassins were able to do just a little bit later in the game. Because well, Teitch, Xayah and Vayne can literally assassinate you late game.

  4. Ezreal

  5. Yoric

How about the fact we have been ASKING FOR AGES for them to buff turrets and extend the game play time back to what it was but riot never listens to anyone. They want quick flashy games which have pushed a lot of the old players away.

WolfChases1 votes

That as well. The biggest problem is that turrets usually determine the outcome of the game. They should be HARD TO TAKE DOWN for how precious they actually are. It's really easy to push now without much effort and snowball out of controll. I am not happy to see bot lane going down in 7 minute mark lol.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Yorick's current kit was made by someone on the boards though...

WolfChases2 votes

Not talking about his kid but the fact that Riot is nerfing Yorick because of the single rune instead of nerfing a God damn rune lol.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

oooohhh now I understand ya better lol.

Of all things Riot could possibly nerf, the minus 3 base AD is going to hurt Yorick's earlygame(a point where he is supposed to shine)

Thank you Rito gems

duck4201 votes

maybe consider that rune to be more usefull on yorick than intended and against other champs using the same rune he has an unintentional advantage because of how he utilizes the rune not because the rune itself is op

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Nerf the rune instead of Yorick because he's clearly the one abusing its power more than anyone else... This is why you aren't in charge of any changes Riot makes. You don't know when and what needs to be nerfed. Nerfing the rune in this case (without any other abuse cases) would make it bad on everyone except Yorick and for what? So that he can only be viable with it?

If the rune was making every juggernaut strong, then the rune would've been nerfed instead of every champion that's strong with it. Aery is the perfect example of that. Every damage champion has consistently been picking it over the Comet, which was slightly more unreliable but with more damage and scaling. Aery was meant for supporting champions in mind since it also boosts heals and shields. The small damage proc is there to help support champions deal a little bit more damage in trades since they usually don't have that much to work with.

And then people wanted for Comet to be buffed when it was actually in a solid place but it was just Aery that was being out of line?

LordGeovanni1 votes

I read proposed yorick Changes by boards memebers not once did i come across this current yorick kit. I followed it because i mained yorick and even though his base stats were guttted before his rework and he got little if any back after his rework. But he was still fun and he was a mainly a problem because people didnt know how to deal with Yorick (deal with all of his ghouls except his q ghost because it refreshes too fast for you to deal with it and its a waste of time compared to hitting yorick but all his other ghouls were on long cooldowns and had effects yorick needed for him to do anything at all) Riot said they had 3 working yorick concepts and were testing them all The only other concept i remember was having untargetable non ai ghouls just them being like an aoe mist thing.

Namitu2 votes

@RIOT MEDDLER THIS GUY IS RIOT ARE YOU THE 2 MILLION PEOPLE DAILY PLAYING THE GAME? I THINK NOT. ARE YOU HARDSTUCK PLAT MAINING NAMI? I THINK SO. ARE YOU SHIT AT THIS GAME? I THINK SO. ARE YOU A FROG? YEP. if this guy mains syndra and can confirm that the mechanic is broken listen to him. like why have forums if you dont even want to pay attention to it. also why would you keep ardent censor op for one whole season and when the assassin rework cmae out you hotfixed most of it first day ( it was op, but fucking nerf ardent censor ) . oh that's right meddler mains nami and he needed to ABUSE ardent censor to keep his rating l u l. turrets... y'all remember laser towers? that shit actually countered tanks but they removed them withno reasoning. add them back riot pls. with a tank you can literally run down nexus towers take 0 dmg from 2 of them and just shit on it cause it's defense is hot shit late game.fucking BE lol.... terrible idea. creative. but terrible. ornn buffs on patch 7.23 no reason whatsoever. new runes are cool some of them are overtuned, but that makes sense they just came out. but then they removed stormraider (which is probably one of the most balanced keystones in the game) and added phase rush and it's shit and @riot is deciding to buff it for ranged characters which is not the problem. just bring stormraiders back. support items cost an average of 2.5k, oof. they make gold without even csing, oof. But it's fine @riot knows what they're doing. Only half of their balance team is in silver. Even aphromoo says support is broken as fuck and almost every other support main would say that as well that is in d2+. ADC items are like 2.8k gold they have lock on auto attacks, they hit you from across your screen. And almost no counter play if they can build right "item 3812 item 3047 item 3026 item 3046 item 3031 item 3156 summoner 4 summoner 7 Lulu Janna

Mordekaiser lol great champ gimme rework

Have a Nice Game2 votes

Old System - You put in games and effort to win in order to get more IP each game

New System - You put in games and effort to win in order to level up once so you get an RNG capsule that ends up giving you a tiny amount of BE

Good job Riot


"I'm a Syndra main. I'll never forget patch 6.9"

ayyyyyyy Malzahar

One of the best patch numbers and the worst content (MYMU)

notice me Sin pi1 votes

riot ignores player feedback cuz it's hard to tell which ones are worth listening to. When plants were being introduced, we acted like it's going to be the end of this game, but right now we are fine with it in overall. When it also comes to BE, i can understand riot not listening to players, as there's a clear reason to assume that all players, myself included, would be biased.

But still, i agree that riot needs to listen to champion MAINS for reworks.

Fedoran1 votes

But Zoe is not broken? It really isnt all that different from veigar except that veigar’s nuke is point and click and his E can trap a whole team, whilst Zoe’s Q is a skillshot and the E has a delay to cast any leap, spell, cleanse, etc before you get stunned.

Zoe’s ult lets you land a skillshot on her for completely free if you have even half a brain?

Stop complaining that you can’t understand her kit like a bronze.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

PBE is never a place where you'd do actual balance of a champion. They are shipped in the best state there and that state doesn't even have to translate well to Live servers because on Live servers, games we play actually aren't of PBE quality.

It's time to stop pretending like Riot isn't listening to you when in fact, there were plenty of times when things got shipped weaker than intended because players (and Riot) didn't want to overreact before the release. And then they consequently had to buff that thing for a patch or two slowly, to bring it back to the power level they wanted.

The thing is, this kind of issue is only going to be posted on the boards when it's inconvenient for the player in question which is quite BS and biased. It's the preseason, it's a new champion and it makes no impact in your ranked experience at this point. In fact, this is how balance is done because nothing ships in a perfect state, ever.

Seviel Vorose2 votes

And why do you pretend unhealthy changes or reworks never happened? Riot ignored feedback in that case, and had to revert them after way too long time. Syndra and Kog'Maw are two examples.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Syndra and Kog Maw weren't full reverts. It's time to get your facts straight. The things that ultimately didn't work out were reverted, the rest was kept. Malzahar didn't get a full revert either. Skarner and Mordekaiser never gotten their reverts.

Riot would never proceed with a change they were never confident in in the first place, to warrant a full revert after a while. This is why they never do them. If they aren't ready to commit to something, they won't do it for the sake of doing it.

Seviel Vorose1 votes

The only thing that remains from 6.9 for Syndra is the +2 seconds on her spheres, which i still despise. Even if these weren't full reverts, it doesn't change the fact that Riot failed and the community knew it would happen before they even released the changes. They just refused to listen.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

There are plenty of examples where the "community" negatively talked too early about some change they didn't even like and it turned out not to impact anything at all - jungle timers, jungle plants and elemental dragons. But on the boards, it's a given to talk shit about a change first before actually giving a fair try and then making a point on it.

Being right a few times doesn't mean you're now better and balancing League than Riot. Throw enough of shit at a wall and something will stick eventually. Boards have a lot of negative opinions about changes Riot makes and most of these opinions aren't even valid. But every once in a while, there's a point to be made. It's very popular to have a negative opinion on something first and not even discuss it in detail, but only to make it sound like you're disappointed to farm those upvotes for internet points. Because all the boards seem to care about is when something is negatively directed at Riot, not even caring if it's a legitimate complaint or not.

Boards are very much driven with negative hyperbole most of the times and without reason. So unless the post is well written and can outline the pros or cons of a specific change, it's 90% of the time not worth the read.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Nothing from new from riot got shipped weaker because of feed back from the pbe only things that had already existed in the game gets nerfed before release and the majority of time it is never because a this is too op feed back its riot pre nerfing things without feed back because they dont want melee champions to have more power than ranged champions in a fight despite their lack of range.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Ah, so Riot listens to feedback ONLY when your argument needs to be correct? Well, that's just swell. Let's not forget that Mage Class Update was a total shitfest because the boards wanted mages to ship stronger than Riot wanted, meaning a few of them needed to be scaled back in a few patches, by the outcry of the boards yet again.

  • Boards: "Don't send us weak mages Riot, we want them big, burly and strong!"
  • Riot: "You got it, boss!"
  • Boards after getting their shit kicked in by the said mages they asked for: "WTF Riot, why are the mages strong? Can't lane against them at all! Nerf this shit now!"
  • Riot: "..."

Again, the boards are not the norm when it comes to champion (or League) balance. The fact that there can be a few good ideas floating around doesn't suddenly mean you're the shit and that Riot should consult you before making any changes to their game.

LordGeovanni1 votes

there were far more people on the boards against the reduction of health magic resist which made defenses against mages strong also the mass addition of cooldown reduction to high damage ap items more posts form different people were against this. but the smaller amounts of buff mages posts had larger upvotes because people who have nothing to say why they should get buffs except adcs got buffed but adc mains play mages secondary because of the similar ranged damage with little risk and nearly no down time.

Hugh G Rections1 votes

they shot themselves in the foot. there is not point to play this god awful game now. i cant even unlock a champion i want to play unless i play 50+ games. its so stupid. it will take 5 years to catch up with release champs

DNFVixen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hugh G Rections,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3BzRxIE,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-11-25T20:34:11.955+0000)

they shot themselves in the foot. there is not point to play this god awful game now. i cant even unlock a champion i want to play unless i play 50+ games. its so stupid. it will take 5 years to catch up with release champs

Join me on maple story, I already quit this game since riot destroyed it.

UnknownTerritory1 votes

I agree that everything is unbalanced right now...chaos*[zombie-brand-mindblown]*

Tibold1 votes

In a nutshell: Players: The new update is broken-Zoe's E is too OP Riot: We'll fix it! (Buffs tower) Players: Zoe is still broken. Riot: (Zoe now has 5armor in less!) players:...

GageNA1 votes

The issue started with PBE, on the PBE server every win is a "first win of the day". On PBE it seems fine you level faster gain BE very fast, therefor testing was a joke and an illusion. None of us gave bad feedback during "testing" cause the system works on PBE. The live server BE/leveling system I trash.

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