@Riot, i don't understand why you can't listen to the player's feedback BEFORE releasing a feature.

Seviel Vorose·11/24/2017, 8:44:43 PM·71 votes·2,928 views

The game would be that much better.

The BE system is atrocious.

Getting IP/BE after a game was the most intuitive game mechanic ever. It just felt natural. Now it's all about the lootboxes, which feels very bad. The worst thing is, if i need 200 BE/IP to get a champion, i'll have to wait for the next level or for 4 FWOTD (first win of the day) to get it. In what way is this new system better than the old? Why did you need to change it in the first place?

The game balance is horrible and biased.

And the last mistake you made was releasing Zoe in this state. Her E is broken, and you overtuned her Q damage because "it's her only damaging spell". Wrong. I'm a Syndra main. I'll never forget patch 6.9 You refused to listen to Syndra mains and introduced the multi-sphere grab mechanic. You know what happened next. It took you 6 months to realise it was a broken mechanic. If you would have listened to our feedback before releasing it, Syndra would have never been broken towards the end of season 6.

You MUST listen to the community feedback BEFORE introducing a change. I don't have to remind you the testing ground is the PBE, not the Live Servers.

56 Comments

koshkyra11/25/2017, 4:46:23 AM29 votes

Something atrocious is on the PBE

PBE People: riot this is bad dont let it into live

Riot: nah its okay lets just give it some time to settle into the game and itll work out

Live Server People: riot its been a week and this is still broken

Riot: we need more time to find the exact problem with it, should fix it in patch [insert patch number x three patches from now here]

Everyone on boards and in-game: RIOT WE ALL AGREE THAT THIS IS THE PROBLEM PLEASE FIX THIS

patch number x notes: we'll be fixing something that has nothing to do with what everyone agrees is the actual problem

Teridax6811/25/2017, 6:35:20 AM7 votes

While I don't think Riot completely ignores feedback every time they release a feature, they do tend to stonewall feedback on any sort of big addition that enters the PBE, and even after that problematic feature gets released to Live, they continue to defend it for an extended period of time. Part of it does stem from a legitimate concern: any sort of game feedback forum skews negative, and many of the players complaining about a feature on the PBE haven't tested it yet, so they do expect their features to be complained about even if they do turn out successful. However, I feel Riot takes it a little too far, and simply assumes that all of the complaining is unfounded and malicious, even when it comes from players trying to help. Additionally, I think to this day Riot still doesn't really understand how sample sizes work: spaces like Gameplay and Reddit are continually dismissed as only a small fraction of the total playerbase, and therefore unimportant, while also failing to mention that these are nonetheless two of the largest communities that consistently give detailed feedback on League. This is why it often takes Riot months to go back on features that have been nearly unanimously criticized across practically every League-related internet space.

In general, Riot's communication strategy has become increasingly distant and opaque, and as a result the bond of mutual trust and respect that was once central to League's player-developer relationship has severely degraded over the years. Rioters routinely mention that they do get feedback from reliable sources, but fail to mention what those sources are or how we can access them, let alone give any sort of indication to the average player on how their voice can be heard. As a result, we players often accuse Riot of being out of touch and destructively selfish, which I think is largely untrue, but I feel Riot also has been treating players less than respectfully, going beyond simply defending their work, and outright belittling and disenfranchizing players who make valid complaints. We saw this recently with Riot's stance on BE, where they completely ignored how most players felt about the milestoning of currency, and instead pretended for a while that everyone was wrong simply because their (flawed) math told them that currency gains had increased across the board. There is a massive amount of work that needs to be put into reestablishing proper communications channels, which should likely include an overhaul to Gameplay, but it doesn't seem like that's a priority right now, even though it should be.

Oleandervine11/25/2017, 4:59:14 AM6 votes

My belief is that if Zoe had been tested more in development, she wouldn't have released as is. There are inherent flaws in how she operates that generated the need for such overblown Qs and Es, and the fact that her skill cap is through the roof is indicative of greater problems. Her kit needs to be rebalanced entirely, and power trimmed out of Q and E and shifted into her (nearly) dead W and barely there passive.

If Q was only capable of a smaller boost of damage, but still dealing semi-reasonable damage without landing it from 50 bajillion miles away, it would be a better skill - new players could grasp her, and skilled players could pull out her potential. The same holds true for E. The trap portion is what most new players will be capable of, but the landing it on who they want is indicative of skill. The true damage portion of it should be gutted out of it entirely, and it should instead do something similar to Abyssal Mask, amplifying one type of damage so it's a bit more of a niche skill. W should have some kind of active if it's not got a stolen spell in it. Either something that will cause a balloon to appear on a minion, or some very diluted version of the speed/zap bubbles from using summoners. If it's going to stay as it is, BALLOONS SHOULD APPEAR ON EVERY MINION WAVE. Not having one of your 4 summoner spells is completely ridiculous, especially since it doesn't do anything and what it does do hinges off of your panic button spells. If LeBlanc's R can do something when it's not mimicking one of her other spells, Zoe's W should do something too.

MysterQ11/24/2017, 9:07:25 PM6 votes

Riot SHOULD give us smaller lootboxes and give us back BE per win/loss.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/tLzqzFp6-375750-be-till-i-am-done It should not take 7 years to get caught up. Riot keeps talking about "equal or slightly faster" well the game keeps growing, it should be faster for new players!

TotalJerk11/25/2017, 5:16:43 AM5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seviel Vorose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t3BzRxIE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-11-24T20:44:43.896+0000)

i don't understand why you can't listen to the player's feedback BEFORE releasing a feature

Skarner

Warios11/24/2017, 8:59:21 PM4 votes

It looks like you don't like the new BE system, I am not crazy about it either, but just because they don't do what you think is right, does not mean they don't listen.

Few changes here that seem to come from player feedback.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/BQed8FWz-leveling-and-rewards-improvements-to-milestone-emotes-capsules-fwotd

ModWulf Helhammer11/24/2017, 9:37:51 PM3 votes

Because most of the time player feedback sucks and is 100% utterly wrong

WolfChases11/25/2017, 1:20:29 PM2 votes

List is much longer dude...take a look at this:

  1. Tears of the Kindred mains - She was broken on release, Kindred mains cane up with a lot of awesome solutions for her yet Ruot refused to listen. Guess what? Kindred is garbage tier.

  2. Assassins rework - Even tho I think some of them are more balanced yet better to plat with or against eg: Rengar, others are either garbage, pocketpicks or broken even more.

  3. Marksman update - Lets reduce the cost od their itemization, let's buff supports and give them some flashy items that indirectly buff ADCs and lets make ADCs do what assassins were able to do just a little bit later in the game. Because well, Teitch, Xayah and Vayne can literally assassinate you late game.

  4. Ezreal

  5. Yoric

Sun Wu Ryuumoku11/25/2017, 12:21:42 PM2 votes

Can we stop crying about BE thing ?? this shit have nothing to do with gameplay !!

For the rest i don't disagree... but i don't totaly agree in same time. Most of time we can read too much BS from this board (mainly cause most here are silver-gold and don't understand this game). But yeah, riot should communicate more with x mains when they rework a champ. Since they stopped class rework they also stopped to speak with the comminuty.

Namitu11/25/2017, 10:46:44 PM2 votes

@RIOT MEDDLER THIS GUY IS RIOT ARE YOU THE 2 MILLION PEOPLE DAILY PLAYING THE GAME? I THINK NOT. ARE YOU HARDSTUCK PLAT MAINING NAMI? I THINK SO. ARE YOU SHIT AT THIS GAME? I THINK SO. ARE YOU A FROG? YEP. if this guy mains syndra and can confirm that the mechanic is broken listen to him. like why have forums if you dont even want to pay attention to it. also why would you keep ardent censor op for one whole season and when the assassin rework cmae out you hotfixed most of it first day ( it was op, but fucking nerf ardent censor ) . oh that's right meddler mains nami and he needed to ABUSE ardent censor to keep his rating l u l. turrets... y'all remember laser towers? that shit actually countered tanks but they removed them withno reasoning. add them back riot pls. with a tank you can literally run down nexus towers take 0 dmg from 2 of them and just shit on it cause it's defense is hot shit late game.fucking BE lol.... terrible idea. creative. but terrible. ornn buffs on patch 7.23 no reason whatsoever. new runes are cool some of them are overtuned, but that makes sense they just came out. but then they removed stormraider (which is probably one of the most balanced keystones in the game) and added phase rush and it's shit and @riot is deciding to buff it for ranged characters which is not the problem. just bring stormraiders back. support items cost an average of 2.5k, oof. they make gold without even csing, oof. But it's fine @riot knows what they're doing. Only half of their balance team is in silver. Even aphromoo says support is broken as fuck and almost every other support main would say that as well that is in d2+. ADC items are like 2.8k gold they have lock on auto attacks, they hit you from across your screen. And almost no counter play if they can build right "item 3812 item 3047 item 3026 item 3046 item 3031 item 3156 summoner 4 summoner 7 Lulu Janna

Mordekaiser lol great champ gimme rework

Have a Nice Game11/26/2017, 12:37:29 AM2 votes

Old System - You put in games and effort to win in order to get more IP each game

New System - You put in games and effort to win in order to level up once so you get an RNG capsule that ends up giving you a tiny amount of BE

Good job Riot


"I'm a Syndra main. I'll never forget patch 6.9"

ayyyyyyy Malzahar

One of the best patch numbers and the worst content (MYMU)

Fedoran11/25/2017, 6:29:38 PM1 votes

But Zoe is not broken? It really isnt all that different from veigar except that veigar’s nuke is point and click and his E can trap a whole team, whilst Zoe’s Q is a skillshot and the E has a delay to cast any leap, spell, cleanse, etc before you get stunned.

Zoe’s ult lets you land a skillshot on her for completely free if you have even half a brain?

Stop complaining that you can’t understand her kit like a bronze.

Hugh G Rections11/25/2017, 8:34:11 PM1 votes

they shot themselves in the foot. there is not point to play this god awful game now. i cant even unlock a champion i want to play unless i play 50+ games. its so stupid. it will take 5 years to catch up with release champs

UnknownTerritory11/25/2017, 9:27:40 PM1 votes

I agree that everything is unbalanced right now...chaos*[zombie-brand-mindblown]*

GageNA11/27/2017, 1:23:36 PM1 votes

The issue started with PBE, on the PBE server every win is a "first win of the day". On PBE it seems fine you level faster gain BE very fast, therefor testing was a joke and an illusion. None of us gave bad feedback during "testing" cause the system works on PBE. The live server BE/leveling system I trash.

Tibold11/25/2017, 11:36:09 PM1 votes

In a nutshell: Players: The new update is broken-Zoe's E is too OP Riot: We'll fix it! (Buffs tower) Players: Zoe is still broken. Riot: (Zoe now has 5armor in less!) players:...

Tomoe Gozen11/25/2017, 7:40:10 PM1 votes

PBE is never a place where you'd do actual balance of a champion. They are shipped in the best state there and that state doesn't even have to translate well to Live servers because on Live servers, games we play actually aren't of PBE quality.

It's time to stop pretending like Riot isn't listening to you when in fact, there were plenty of times when things got shipped weaker than intended because players (and Riot) didn't want to overreact before the release. And then they consequently had to buff that thing for a patch or two slowly, to bring it back to the power level they wanted.

The thing is, this kind of issue is only going to be posted on the boards when it's inconvenient for the player in question which is quite BS and biased. It's the preseason, it's a new champion and it makes no impact in your ranked experience at this point. In fact, this is how balance is done because nothing ships in a perfect state, ever.

notice me Sin pi11/25/2017, 3:38:50 AM1 votes

riot ignores player feedback cuz it's hard to tell which ones are worth listening to. When plants were being introduced, we acted like it's going to be the end of this game, but right now we are fine with it in overall. When it also comes to BE, i can understand riot not listening to players, as there's a clear reason to assume that all players, myself included, would be biased.

But still, i agree that riot needs to listen to champion MAINS for reworks.

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