An in-depth analysis of Syndra's Q duration and her R's "windows of power" by a 950k Syndra main

Seviel Vorose··88 votes·18,501 views

Hello everyone! I've been a Syndra main for several years. Despite not being able to play a lot of rankeds due to personal reasons, i've always been playing, analizing and practicing her for over 1300 games. I'm writing this thread for reasons you'll understand later. I hope Riot will comment, since i'm putting a lot of passion for my Syndra on this! Good reading.


As you all know, Syndra's R damage depends on how many Dark Spheres you manage to keep on the ground. I'll call these damage opportunities "windows of power". Much has changed, however, since patch 6.9, and i'll analyze these windows of power before and after 6.9

Before 6.9

Spheres duration was always 6 seconds throughout the whole game. This means that a 7 spheres R, the peak of Syndra's burst, wasn't possible until you managed to get at least 30% cdr.

With 30% cdr, the window of power for a 7 spheres R was 0.4 seconds if done perfectly .

Q1 ; Q2 + Q1(2.8s)->W ; Q3 + Q2(2.8s) + Q1(2.8s) ; Q4 + Q3(5.6s) + Q2(5.6s) + Q1(5.6s).

item 3041

With 40% cdr, the window of power for a 7 spheres R was 1.2 seconds if done perfectly.

Q1 ; Q2 + Q1(2.4s)->W ; Q2 + Q1 ; Q3 + Q2(2.4s) + Q1(2.4s) ; Q4 + Q3(2.4s) + Q2(4.8s) + Q1(4.8s).

item 3041

This is perfectly fair if you consider that is for a single target nuke of 1.260 + 140% AP. However, reaching this peak wasn't only about the skills of a player, but also about the very stats at his disposal. If you didn't have at least 30% cdr, 7 might as well be not a number. This mechanic has been changed with patch 6.9

After patch 6.9

I'm not gonna mention the W change, as it is gone (thanks god). The new Transcendent passive changed these windows of power drastically. As soon as you reach level 9, a 7 spheres R is possible even with 5% cdr.

With 5% cdr, the window of power is 0.4s if done perfectly.

Q1 ; Q2 + Q1(3.8s)->W ; Q3 + Q2(3.8s) + Q1(3.8s) ; Q4 + Q3(3.8s) + Q2(7.6s) + Q1(7.6s)

item 3041

With 40% cdr, the window of power is 3.2 seconds if done perfectly.

Q1 ; Q2 + Q1(2.4s)->W ; Q3 + Q2(2.4s) + Q1(2.4s) ; Q4 + Q3(4.8s) + Q2(4.8s) + Q1(4.8s)

item 3041

One of the key mechanics of Syndra's kit was made much easier to allow her to reach the peaks of her burst much more easily. I totally understand why it needed to be done: 7 spheres Rs were too rare, for good reasons, but too rare. Now they are much easier, and with the right amount of cdr, you can reach them almost randomly. The fact is: how can the rest of her kit have any other source of power added to it, if reaching the peak of her R burst is so much easier now? The +2 seconds duration is a straightforward bonus on her Q with no real proof of skill, no real interaction. This is, in my opinion, one of the reasons why her dps had to be reduced a few patches ago.

And i finally got to the point:

i propose to change it.

Make Qs bonus duration feel like a reward

The duration of dark spheres manipulated by W, E and R is increased by 2 seconds when hitting at least one enemy champion e.g. if a sphere you manipulate with E hits an enemy champion and has only 2 seconds left, it will stay on the ground for 4 seconds instead

Note: this is just an example, and variations of this mechanic would be interesting This would be the only Transcendent bonus affected not by the spell itself, but by Syndra's other spells. It makes sense, since Dark Sphere is the core of her whole kit When you reach level 9, you are able to access Syndra's true burst potential, but you'll have to work for it. Dark sphere's duration would again be 6 throughout the whole game, but it can go up to 8 seconds if you manage to manipulate your spheres with W and E in the right way

This new Transcendent Q passive could potentially open new ways to balance her kit around

And that's all, folks.

I really hope i haven't bored you to death, and i hope to get feedback from Syndra mains and other champion's mains alike

p.s at least one Rioter comment would be appreciated [sg-syndra]

Edit: slightly edited my proposed Transcendent Q passive Edit 2: grammar corrections Edit 3 (03-22-2018) "Make Qs bonus duration feel like a reward" part deleted.

61 Comments

Ender L79 votes

It's clear you put a lot of effort into this post which I appreciate (bonus is that I agree with what you're saying!). I like the terminology you're using with "windows of power" and agree that the uptime on her orbs is one of the must frustrating parts of playing against her. Mainly the case where she just stacks them in a bush and waits for someone to walk close enough to combo. I'll pass this along and see what some other people think :D

Seviel Vorose16 votes

That's great! I'm proud you agree with me and i thank you sharing this with your colleagues. I strongly believe nothing can be really done about her kit as long as the Q passive stays how it is, but hopefully this will change, one day. Thanks for your comment, it really made me proud of myself and my love for Syndra ^_^

The Yetii Rider10 votes

TFW senpai notices you.

Ender L4 votes

The yeti knows the way!

Funkin Dunkin3 votes

I have an interesting take on her so Syndra can't just Q spam to generate more orbs.

Every time Syndra casts an orb via Q a new orb is replaced. Only when champions are hit with the orb via W and E will they reproduce. This will force more skill rather than mindless Qing

Sraeg20138 votes

That's nice and all, but it'd make her completely useless against mobility and one of her characteristics for the longest of time is that she actually CAN deal with mobility, LeBlanc being the prime example.

Funkin Dunkin2 votes

She can still deal with mobility just fine. And typically mobility champs are soft anyway. And she can't a counter for everyone. Perhaps being weaker vs mobility wouldn't be a bad thing. And besides...she doesn't have to HIT the mobility champ, just one of the champions. Easy enough to 6 ball ult mobility with point and click.

Sraeg20132 votes

And how many champions are on midlane most of the time?

Funkin Dunkin2 votes

This is how I know you're being cynical. A champion cannot be strong vs every champion she fights. That's just not how this game works.

Velzard of Koz4 votes

A champion cannot be strong vs every champion she fights.

His point was: you justify your statement by saying she just needs to hit one enemy, but most of the time during laning phase, there is just one enemy so in other words, If she can't hit the enemy (because they are mobile), then she's useless. And he started the discussion with noting Syndra not being effective against mobile champions would be design irony because she is SUPPOSED to be effective against mobile champions.

He doesn't say she must be good against everyone, he says nerfing her against mobile champs, which would be what you propose according to him, doesn't make sense since she is supposed to be good against them and the argument that she doesn't need to hit the mobile champ is flawed because in laning phase, that is the only champ she will be able to hit majority of times.

He might've sounded very cynical to you because you missed his point like a stormtrooper.

SettDownShutUp2 votes

While you're at it, do you think you you can talk to them about how if syndra dies her ult will follow through without her? It feels horrible, like there is nothing you can do about your own death even if you play properly. (Or is the only way to win never approaching her...)

DarkSunSovereign2 votes

Just like any other projectile

DarkRooster1 votes

Its a sickness of slow animation *knock ups someone under zhonia while being Blitz''

Syndra had free window in which she could press R on you in range and ult already started to detonate, she died after the detonation. This works the same when you detonate it on enemy, who is about to die from your teammate, Syndra ult doesn't even make it in time and she gets full cooldown anyway.

Syndra is easy to play around in meta where killing enemy Syndra taks 2 - 2.5 sec, she can't kill anyone as fast if not insanely fed, also her Q and W and E are easy to dodge. Also her range is quite low if you don't trip on her stun, so anything that can nicely poke can bully her.

She got nerfed 2 or 3 times since her power times, the same time mages dropped generally past few years, she is not powerful at all, most who tries her dies 10 times with 2 kills and never returns to trying Syndra. Worlds picked Syndra, but she was almost a bad pick generally, no one did anything decent with her there, completely different from her influence in esports few years ago.

Mace Ventura1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Ender L,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xu1PzAvO,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-13T12:27:25.956+0000)

It's clear you put a lot of effort into this post which I appreciate (bonus is that I agree with what you're saying!). I like the terminology you're using with "windows of power" and agree that the uptime on her orbs is one of the must frustrating parts of playing against her. Mainly the case where she just stacks them in a bush and waits for someone to walk close enough to combo. I'll pass this along and see what some other people think :D

Just wanted to drop by and say I love how you guys do your best to listen to community suggestions, keep up the good work!

XdeathitselfX2 votes

damm when i made a nasus in depth post you guys didnt say shit i played nasus more than 2000 times and im diamond3 i am the worlds 29th best nasus was the 1st best nasus before and you guys seems to hate juggernauts and bruisers alot and care about champs that are already broken?

Riot ENDER L im very dissapointed in you

Ender L14 votes

I'll gladly take a look at it. Drop a link for me?

XdeathitselfX5 votes

wow QwQ i never thought you would say that to me TwT. you mind if i can make a video and upload it on youtube and get my points across there and ill link you after 1 hour?

Ender L14 votes

Sure.

XdeathitselfX2 votes

yes ok :3 ill record the video now and ill link it soon to you 0^0

i just hope something good will happen to my beloved susan qwqNasus

XdeathitselfX2 votes

sorry for making you wait so long my internet upload speed is super bad :C its going to be on my channel after 2 hours :C

this is my youtube channel you can check it out ^_^

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEQNSuIeS6gqHtzB-lhmz0A

XdeathitselfX3 votes

here and these are the numbers that my video didnt show about nasus E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRtgvV1YC8o&feature=youtu.be

E magic damage 77/133/189/245/301 (+70%AD) E magic damage per second 11/19/27/35/43 (+25%AD) but E will only remain for 3 seconds instead of 5 seconds

XdeathitselfX1 votes

so what do you think about my video :3 Riot ENDER L

Ender L2 votes

Sorry it took a while to reply! But I finally got a chance to watch the whole video.

I do agree with you that the E damage does feel low in the late game, but that is partially because his Q becomes so much more powerful compared to other abilities in the game.

I'd love you to explain here a little bit more about Nasus versus tanks. I am by no means a Nasus main, but his kit has a lot of tools to be able to deal with tanks. You go over that in the video and say that his E and R are not enough. What tanks does he actually lose to in the late game? His sustain from passive and tank shredding abilities should make him able to win out against them in a side lane. You brought up Maokai and that he gets hard-countered by Nasus. I agree (and that matchup was picked a few times in the Korean pro scene this year). Why is he hard-countered but not other tanks?

I'd love to keep talking with you about this to try and understand a little bit more.

XdeathitselfX1 votes

ok wow im shock XD ill make 1 more and try my best to explain some more about nasus verses tanks :D

XdeathitselfX1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umhUk7RnlnU&feature=youtu.be

here is my new video and sorry i kept burping because i was really sick :C

Ender L2 votes

I'm not sure I agree that AD scaling on his E would be a good direction for Nasus. First of all, I don't think that Nasus would be stronger if he were incentive to build damage over tank stats. Because of his Q stack and his juggernaut nature (as you pointed out) he needs to build tank to stay alive long enough to get off as many Q's as possible. Also, the AP scaling on his E opens up some alternate, more early game focused strategies, with Doran's rings and E max. I don't really want to live in a world where that is the optimal strategy for Nasus, but I do find it interesting, similar to Doran's ring start Sion (to give tanks a more impactful laning phase).

I did watch the rest of your video, but its difficult for me to gain much from it because you have brought up issues with all of his abilities aside from W and power at various stages of the game. The best way to work here is to find one or two problem spaces that you believe Nasus has. Don't figure out how to fix those yet, just identify them. Then we can talk about hypothetical changes to meet those goals.

I'd prefer if we proceeded with text replies rather than video so we can communicate more quickly :)

XdeathitselfX1 votes

Alright ^_^ well as a Nasus main i always go E max but ever since you guys changed that flat 40 armor pen into 35% armor pen on maxed E i feel maxing E is really bad to low armor targets like Fiora, Jax, Riven, Tryndamere, Yasuo, Camile and Akali etc. those are the champions that naturally give Nasus a really hard time in laning phase making it more harder after the changes on his E if maxing E first.

As a Nasus 1-trick i can identify 2 things that Nasus has problem with

1st: Nasus Q doesn't scale properly in the upper mid to late game due to the fact that he needs to consistently push as fast as possible and resulting in losing a lot of stacks to do what he excels at splitpushing causing his scaling to suddenly almost stop due to his scaling is dependent on his Q stacks or the other way around if he does choose to stack all of them it will make the wave slow push and make it harder for him to splitpush properly and by the time Nasus stacks all of the wave either a teamfight is over or the top laner or anyone can just come back and collect all the wave as if Nasus is assisting the enemy team XD.

2nd: This is sort of a minor issue with his E that his last few ticks of over time flame damage feels completely wasted due to the fact that the total duration is 5 seconds which people can even hardly stay in 2 seconds and making it 3 seconds even when using W on the enemy which the remaining duration is wasted with a 130 mana at maxed rank. I would suggest to increase the max armor penetration to 45% instead of 35% making it more impactful for people who max E over the sacrifice of maxing Q (side note the counter to E maxing is 2 dorans blade or any reliable sustain ability in laning phase or simply by just magic resist making the armor% penetration not really effective because they wont be buying any armor yet making E max really a bad choice so the 45% buff would be really decent in my opinion.

PeepingPeafowl1 votes

You made that guys week by saying like 10 words, way to go!

xDogMeatx1 votes

'must' (autocorrect to) most frustrating parts of playing against her.

Seviel Vorose1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Ender L,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xu1PzAvO,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-12-13T12:27:25.956+0000)

I'll pass this along and see what some other people think :D

Hello. I apologise if i'm bothering you, but could i get to know the opinions of your colleagues about my thread? I'd be very interested in what they had to say about it :)

Ender L4 votes

Sorry for not following up sooner. Syndra is on our radar at the moment, although I don't believe there are any changes planned soon. Showed your post to a few other playtesters/designers. Can't promise your post will end up affecting anything, but the information is out there!

Spideraxe3 votes

Just some small commentary on your replies i think this what people really want to see from Rioters, people who put a lot of effort in to creating in depth posts that aren't ranty/ragey getting noticed by Riot. Even though you acknowledged you cant necessarily act upon this data and thoughts just having being acknowledged and passed around designers is good enough imo. Just feels good to be heard and discussing

Ender L3 votes

[galio-happy]

Seviel Vorose3 votes

You have absolutely no reason to be sorry! I am extremely grateful for your attention. I'm sure the balance team will make the proper choices for Syndra in the future, and i hope they will reach to us to hear our opinions when the time comes. Have a good day!

Battalion5 votes

I agree, Syndra has become less of a high skill champion and much more user friendly, but by doing so she's been taken out of the running for buffs because of how disgustingly powerful she could be with a nudge too far.

AmazoX5 votes

People will then cry about Syndra being too hard to play. Honestly this is a cool change but the correct way to solve this would be.........no fucking clue, have my up vote & love. (nerf fucking adc's challenjour skill of right clicking ass nuclear damage )

Seviel Vorose8 votes

Syndra is meant to be an hard champion. Don't misunderstand, she still is an hard champion, but she has a very, very easier time with the actual Q passive. Balancing her kit is very tricky right now.

Hovering Hentai5 votes

Maybe we could also do something about her catastrophic drop in frame rate following her ult

It's nice ulting someone late game then being unable to play for 3 seconds in a team fight....

Seviel Vorose4 votes

A Rioter has just fixed this and many other R bugs on the PBE. I can confirm it since i've been talking wih him and testing these fixes myself ^^

Hovering Hentai1 votes

Ok so is that next patch it's gonna hit live servers? I noticed it in a game yesterday but it's good to hear it's finally sorted somewhere

Seviel Vorose1 votes

He said the bug fixes are coming out with patch 8.2

Veraska4 votes

I love numbers and passion for specific champions have an upvote

Śhunpo4 votes

Laughs in Syndra oneshotting Sneaky with one button

Spârky1 votes

"Wahoo!" In sneaky's voice

Eisheth34 votes

So, Syndra is not doing so well right now. She's at #43 out of 45 mid laners with a win rate of slightly 45%. Now you want to make her weaker and harder to play? This makes absolutely no sense. Why would anyone hate their main champion this much?

DarkSunSovereign7 votes

Seviel Vorose wants to make her weaker at setting up 7 spheres so she can be buffed elsewhere. As it stands, if she's buffed, she'll be OP because of the point and click oneshot nuke that is her 7 sphere R. If this change goes through with compensation buffs, she might finally be balanced.

Eisheth31 votes

Oh, I might have read it too fast then and didn't see that. If the intention is for her to get buffs, then I think it is definitely needed and the change I an interesting idea. Thanks for the clarification.

Starcraft243ver4 votes

You forgot the calculation with 45% cdr :)

Teridax684 votes

This looks like a change that would go in a good direction for Syndra. Personally, my issue with her is that her sphere uptime is defined purely by her own spell usage, rather than interaction with her opponents: for sure, it's difficult to get 7 spheres up at the same time, but if you master it, there is not much her opponent can do to stop the process, short of locking her down at critical moments. Having her sphere duration refresh or extend by hitting enemy champions could make her a lot more interactive in this respect, and might also shift her ramping power more towards aggressive plays, rather than isolated sphere management.

Sraeg20132 votes

That's one of the reasons I was against MYMU from the get-go.

That said, getting a 7-sphere ult still requires possibly one of the longest setups in the game. Yes, it's easier now, but there are champions which can in those 10+ seconds do much much more than to nuke a single champion.

The actual problem here is that the 6-sphere ult wasn't possible without CDR either and now it is, and that affects early game which is much more important, because let's face it:

A squish (like ADC) is going to die anyway in mid-late game, regardless if it's 6 or 7 spheres.

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