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A math. proof that Hexdrinker is broken and shouldn't be allowed to coexist with Nullifying Orb v2.0

Seviel Vorose··341 votes·12,022 views

Syndra: item 3020 item 3191 (fully stacked)item 3802 item 1056 AP: 102 Armor: 96 Magic penetration: 18

Zed: item 3134 item 3155 AD: 145 Magic resistance: 77 Lethality: 12

Raw 6 spheres Unleashed Power damage: 662 magic damage.

6 spheres Unleashed Power damage after damage mitigation without Hexdrinker: 536 magic damage.

6 spheres Unleashed Power damage after damage mitigation with Hexdrinker: 417 magic damage, - 200 from the lvl 10 shield and -90 from Nullifying Orb = 127 magic damage.

The close peak of Syndra's R burst was close to being completely denied from a single rushable item and a rune. 536 magic damage -> 127 magic damage.

I had a fully stacked Keeper's Armguard, for 45 armor. This item increases my physical damage resistance by 15% (33%->48%). Is it even close? I DO NOT think so.

Hexdrinker is broken for the assassins. It should not be allowed to stack with Nullifying Orb. Hexdrinker is way more cost efficient than Seeker's Armguard.

If the situation was reversed, i would have died to his burst. This is totally unfair and biased.

280 Comments

Succubús GF46 votes

I have no idea why this got downvoted

Seviel Vorose74 votes

Salty assassins mains that can't deal with the truth.

The Great Divide37 votes

They got such tailormade items to mitigate weaknesses they have and it's dumb.

Can't dodge cc with your hypermobile kit? item 3814 Couldn't land enough abilities to burst? item 3147 Don't have enough mobility to roam? item 3142 Played with impunity and didn't respect mages' damage? item 3156

And yes, every class has items to help them be "better." But these items basically remove key counterplay from assassins or accentuate their strengths to stupid degrees with little tradeoff (item 3147 )

But let's keep saying assassins are unplayable because supports could finally do their jobs and make them use skill to kill the ADC

AirKingNeo7 votes

Because he fails to realize that Hexdrinker isn't broken and there's no proof to support it.

It's literally working as intended. Zed did a full combo and barely hurt Syndra due to the lack of damage it gives.

Succubús GF8 votes

He probably "barely did damage" bc she has seekers fully upgraded. Also the interaction with null orb and hexdrinker makes syndra complete burst nothing? Which is stupid???? and poor design and hurts mages more?

Faceroll Tactics5 votes

wait wait wait. its ok for syndra to barely take any damage because she built defense, but its not ok for zed to survive?

did you reread that before you sent it?

Succubús GF9 votes

Because hex drinker AND null orb is too strong ? Like as a pair? Syndra also took quite bit of damage considering she dropped to about 40% from 100

Shablagoo4 votes

You still dont see the hyprocrisy of what you are saying man... why should syndra survive while building defensive while zed which does the same thing should not?

SH Azykan22 votes

because the zed started out at 40% hp, syndra started at 100% zed ended with about 25% hp, syndra ended with about 35% Zed missed a lot of his kit, syndra used a 6 ball ult (which if people recall was a huge part of the ADC2k17 meme because of how much damage it does) basically most of syndras burst was negated by the item + rune. The zed played awful in that situation, and should have died.

Hibeki19 votes

He did barely any damage because he missed literally everything lol

General Esdeath 6 votes

Sees whole mathematical formulas and video evidence proving hexdrinker is broken

"There's no proof this item is broken"

[sg-lux-2]

AirKingNeo2 votes

He didn't give math proving his point. He gave math proving it worked fine.

General Esdeath 4 votes

"This item and rune single handedly countered an ultimate from a mage meant to deal burst damage with her ult, it's clearly not broken, it's working fine."

https://i.imgur.com/msPvXCY.jpg

Next you're gonna tell me 7.21 Galio was fine

Seviel Vorose45 votes

The fact that people are downvoting makes me sad, really sad. People consider this normal and acceptable, and it frightens me.

The Yetii Rider7 votes

Yes, inequality is normal and acceptable, especially when it appears between two individuals who are not equal.

HongChongDong16 votes

None of what you said really applies when we're talking about the balance of a competitive video game. The simple fact this post presents, a fact that has been true for a very long time, is that against an AP champion hexdrinker is a stupidly gold efficient item that can GUARANTEE absolute safety in a 1v1 scenario with no mechanical counterplay or skill required. Just simplistic brain dead stats. Mages aren't supposed to counter assassins? Fine, what about something like Fizz VS talon/zed?

Once an AD mid laner grabs hex it becomes impossible to kill them. Zed and Talon will come out even in a trade and have the power to turn a trade into an all in. in an all in you definitely won't kill them so the only choice is to play the lane passively at that point. This is also a pointless way to go about it because both of them have power ranged abilities to attempt to poke at you until they can set you up for a kill. The disadvantage only grows as the game goes on when they start stacking lethality items and start to massively out damage you because once again AD champions have access to a powerful line of items that there is no comparison for in AP itemization. Once they get duskblade it's completely over.

Completely negating a champions capabilities with brainless stats is a privilege that should be exclusive for tanks, not something you can pick up on anything you want.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

First of all, assassins are inherently more difficult to play than mages. That was true before and Riot specifically went out of their way to make it even more true with the assassin update. They want assassins to be difficult to play. If the kit is inherently already hard to use, they can have a break on the item being brain dead.

AP assassins getting the short end of the stick doesn't stop the argument. It just means that AP assassins need to stop existing. If Riot wants to appropriately balance their game they should normalize the assassin class and make them all AD.

"Once an AD mid laner grabs hex it becomes impossible to kill them". This isn't an issue. You don't need to kill your lane opponent. You can keep them at bay by softening them up with damage from range and then just out CS them and move on with your life. There is no reason to fight a battle you know you can't win. Thankfully, you have the range and the CC to avoid the fight altogether.

"Once again AD champions have access to a powerful line of items that there is no comparison for in AP itemization"

That's the fucking point of my original post. Do not compare items for two classes. They are separate. They are not equal. There should be no comparison. They have different roles, different goals, different reasons for being picked. Assassins have higher damage on their items. Yes. That is because mages have more damage in their kits. If I drop Tibbers on three enemy champions he will do over 600 damage instantly. The only assassin who has that much raw AOE damage in their kit is Katarina and Evelynn, and both of them are a lot easier to counter or avoid than Annie.

Do not compare mages to assassins. This is the point I am making. This is the point Riot understands. That is why no one does anything about Hexdrinker no matter how many times you cry, no matter how many threads you make. They already know that mages are better than assassins in terms of utility and AOE, they don't need to worry that assassins have raw single target damage and sustain.

NineTailedMystic15 votes

"Once an AD mid laner grabs hex it becomes impossible to kill them". This isn't an issue. You don't need to kill your lane opponent. You can keep them at bay by softening them up with damage from range and then just out CS them and move on with your life. There is no reason to fight a battle you know you can't win. Thankfully, you have the range and the CC to avoid the fight altogether.

Out CS them? Yea, if you're not fighting them for CS, you're getting zoned. If you're using your CC every time they walk up, you're going to run out of Mana very fast (and are very impressive if you hit every CC).

Do you know how awful it feels to play a mid lane Mage and not have the chance to get fed in lane? Not even plays utility based champs. Hell, I doubt anyone playing Lux mid is playing her for her utility. Most AP mid players want to be damage carries. And with all the nerfs to AP values over the past two years, getting fed is the only way to do it. And what do we get to not do when playing against an Assassin?

The Yetii Rider1 votes

So then ban out the assassins. Zed is way more common than Talon. Ban Zed every game, that removes half of the common Hexdrinker users. Problem solved.

Or, you could roam. You could play a bot lane mage and get fed that way. Zyra and Brand play well bot. You could go top lane and prey on melee champions. Riot is making changes to Zyra and Morgana to let them jungle. You can do that soon as well.

NineTailedMystic10 votes

Personally every one of my bans will go to Zoe for a long time.

Roaming against an Assassin will not go in your favor, they are simply the better roamers with itemization to support it. Top Lane is very volatile in playing a mid Mage. Either you kill them more than once early, or they tank up and never die unless they're a skirmisher like Riven. The changes to Morg and Zyra are aimed at better mid laning, not jungle. I doubt Riot would let them stay jungle as a side effect.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

They SAID they want them to jungle. Here, let me find it...

Here's the post by one of the playtesters: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/xMuTbNoe-patch-chat-with-the-playtest-team-723?comment=0002000100010001

You're going to have to read the whole comment chain to understand the context. But basically, Riot is making changes that the playtest team feels very heavy handedly push Morgana and Zyra into the jungle.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Alright, fair enough on Morg/Zyra. I had thought Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts had specified the changes to "help them mid lane", but actually says "help them outside of Support". Can't say I'm enthused about 9 year snares from FoW, but ya know.

Saianna40 votes

Considering Riot are doing their very best to give AD clear advantage over AP since S4, I'm not really surprised.

DarkRooster23 votes

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/d/de/My_point_exactly._Good_to_see_that_people_see_it_d132975652374dd27d77f0b722a8d63f.png/revision/latest?cb=20131103020848

Slich Bissi11 votes

Is not itemization a part of countering and counterplay? Isn't the point of building an item to survive exactly this situation? Isn't Thornmail to counter ADC? Isn't anything with Grievous Wounds meant to counter such beings like Warwick and Mundo?

I thought being able to make smart item choices to be able to live longer was a good part of the game ???? Also you can build Zhonya's to get armor and cancel Zed ult?

Seviel Vorose52 votes

Seeker's Armguard is only 100 gold less, it's a stacking item and is far from providing such a strong defense. Don't bring Zhonya's into the table just because you have nothing to discuss about. It's rushable defensive items we're talking about here.

Slich Bissi9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Seviel Vorose,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQbRBfN3,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-11-27T18:10:49.527+0000)

Seeker's Armguard is only 100 gold less, it's a stacking item and is far from providing such a strong defense. Don't bring Zhonya's into the table just because you have nothing to discuss about. It's rushable defensive items we're talking about here.

I'm discussing itemization and defensive counter items. I have something to discuss.

Slythion38 votes

{quoted}

I'm discussing itemization and defensive counter items. I have something to discuss.

These aren't fair arguments to make because Zhonyas is a much more expensive item (which means you can't get it before 6) than hexdrinker and is an absolutely terrible item to rush in the first place for almost all mages. Zed and other ad assassins, however, can pick up a hexdrinker by the time midlaners hit level 6 and start up a dirk.

By the time a mage finishes Zhonyas, hexdrinker will have been available to ad assassins much before then and they will have much better and useful stats from being able to build from there.

Zhonyas 1st item is a sinkhole that you're forced to rush just to not lose lane, but you lose sooooo much power in forms of lane sustain, trades, roaming, and teamfights.

Hexdrinker + (insert w/e enemy mid laner wants here) provides good stats at a cheaper price. It's a much more flexible and forgiving build path with earlier spikes.

See the difference?

Slich Bissi6 votes

{quoted}

These aren't fair arguments to make because Zhonyas is a much more expensive item (which means you can't get it before 6) than hexdrinker and is an absolutely terrible item to rush in the first place for almost all mages. Zed and other ad assassins, however, can pick up a hexdrinker by the time midlaners hit level 6 and start up a dirk.

By the time a mage finishes Zhonyas, hexdrinker will have been available to ad assassins much before then and they will have much better and useful stats from being able to build from there.

Zhonyas 1st item is a sinkhole that you're forced to rush just to not lose lane, but you lose sooooo much power in forms of lane sustain, trades, roaming, and teamfights.

Hexdrinker + (insert w/e enemy mid laner wants here) provides good stats at a cheaper price. It's a much more flexible and forgiving build path with earlier spikes.

See the difference?

Well when you put it that way: yes.

mack91122 votes

But aren't zed and syndra two very different classes ? Like syndra also has a stun dosnt even need to get close to the target to kill them. Im not saying things are 100% fair but it definitely isn't black and white.

Votable Jester20 votes

But Jayce for instance can also grab hexdrinker. He doesn't have to get close for all his damage and he provides a knockback and slow (equal cc to Syndra).

Hexdrinker isn't tied to assassins, any ad champion can take advantage of it to dramatically mitigate AP burst while AP champs have no options other than Zhonya's which is situational defense and has a significantly longer cooldown.

mack91124 votes

Ya that's a very fair statement I can't argue. I do hope the new runes get tuned down a bit. It's fun to see the new interactions but I feel the game didn't require another later like this.

Doctor Dunk2 votes

I feel like people are wilfully ignoring the fact that you can now buy a stop watch that has the same effect as zhonyas! for 600g now. This means that by the time zed has his ult, the only reason you can die is misplay.

Auz the Ripper14 votes

Stopwatch is single use and gives no stats. Hexdrinker can be used multiple times and is pretty stat efficient.

Cynosis8 votes

Its all about making the game faster, assasins and 2 hit AD's man. I'm not really sure how to even fix any of the problems that have come up. Between the BE fiasco being what it is, to the tank shredding ADC meta, to everything else. No for any of it anymore. Cool down on hexdrinker is a bit longer than your ult? Oh wait JK hahah

WatchThePower8 votes

I hate to be a dick here, but assassins NEED to be stronger in this early situation. The entire identity of an assassin is a champion that can beat and shut down high damage champions in a 1v1. If syndra/any ranged champion was able to completely avoid the early game strengths provided by picking an assassin, assassins would just be completely useless. Syndra scales well into teamfights, and while zed does scale very well for an assassin, (fuck zed) he doesn't bring the same strengths to a team that syndra/whoever can mid lane.

Also I don't want to completely shut down your argument here, but syndra/every mage can buy an early stopwatch or get a free one this season (and 600g discount on zhonyas), so I'd honestly argue that mages actually benefited even more than AD assassins from the preseason changes. Especially considering the removal of flat MR glyphs.

Weiss Guertena13 votes

You have to understand a difference between "being stronger" and "completely negating with zero effort". First one is allright. Zed should have an advantage against Syndra, but he should also be able to die if outplayed. What OP posted is the second one - Zed simply picked a mastery rune and bought a cheap item, and now Syndra literally can't do anything no matter how good she is. If Zed decides to rush on her when he comes back, she's dead no matter how well she plays - you can't outplay a shitload of free defensive boosts. There is absolutely zero skill and effort involved from Zed in order to become all but unkillable by any mage. You can't possibly claim that is fair.

Stopwatch is also an absolutely terrible early buy. First of all, it's a highly snowbally meta - meaning that spending 600 gold on an item that gives zero stats is putting a giant neon sign over your head saying "team please carry me, I just put myself insanely behind by throwing 600 gold down the drain when I need them the most". That's 3 kills worth of gold. If Zed gets 3 kills, he snowballs the game. If Syndra gets them, she might survive a single all-in. Second, it's a ONE use item - aside from paradox of spending 600 gold to deny a single kill worth 200, it leaves you with a literal dud in your inventory. Meanwhile your opponent spent his 600 gold on actual stats, crushing any hope you might have had of fighting him.

Imagine if instead of Hexdrinker there was an item that built into Maw and gave a one-time shield with zero stats. Who in their right mind would ever buy it? Oh, and free stopwatch is only a 300g discount on Zhonyas instead of 600.

Riot is all high on words like "counterplay" or "interactivity". So where are those in Hexdrinker+Orb combo? Where is counterplay to negating a massive part of my burst without even having to press a button? And why should I even try to interact with an opponent who gets to be unkillable with zero skill or effort involved? He can kill me easily, I can't kill him at all - so why even bother with anything other than passively farming (you know, the thing Riot also hates and has repeatedly nerfed champions able to do that very effectively).

Have a Nice Game7 votes

Outplay should not be zero effort. Syndra waited to ult Zed specifically after he ulted so he wouldn't dodge the ult via his own ult. His blunder should have resulted in a death.

Also, Double shields on CD is not better than a one time use statless stasis? That a joke?

Zed would have the option of using shadows to poke down Syndra and scare her into using a stasis. Syndra used most of her spells on a Zed that all-in'd her at low health and he escaped relatively unscathed. And the best part is that it will come back after its CD.

Snowplosion7 votes

You... won that trade?

Ahris5 votes

Did you account for mr?

Seviel Vorose60 votes

Read my calculations, i obviously did.

Rite of Shadows5 votes

Well or Zed used a rune slot solely dedicated to being able to survive a Syndra ult hugely benefitting the other team members later into the game as it doesn't affect them that much. But instead rant on boards about how your Syndra skill button doesn't oneshot a Zed anymore when he buys some items and appropriately spikes in the game.

mikemcparty9 votes

It's not a "one-shot." A syndra ult should kill that zed... The dude has like 1/4 of his hp.

ARequestOfDeath4 votes

As a person who plays a lot of top lane let me say this. Hexdrinker is a must to face some champions that counter you just just to stand a chance in fighting them. examples beingVladimir Swain Rumble Heimerdinger Kennen

Seviel Vorose6 votes

The item is meant to be built on bruisers, like Riot once said, not on assassins. Building it in the top lane would be completely fine.

Eedat3 votes

Why did you copy and paste your last thread?

Seviel Vorose38 votes

I deleted the wall of text and made it more clear I called it v 2.0

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

Let's just remove it then and let Orianna Syndra Annie 1shot everyone lul.

He barely survived and he used both summs , you only used barrier (which you didn't have to btw)

TheDangerousTaco14 votes

But she was close to full health, he wasn't. That scenario hardly counts towards what your implying Edit: He didn't just barely survive, he basically nullified 2 of her abilities ( one being an ult ) and still managed to bring her down to 30% hp. All while only loosing 10% hp of his own. If that isn't broken, idk what is.

Yaśuo Main4 votes

But he was almost dead

he lost a good 70-80% hp. Sure nullifying orb and hexdrinker is cancer but I think that damage would irk me more. Especially if Syndra did all that damage on him while she was full HP.

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