Aren't we all tired of two/three items Vaynes, Xayahs etc. bursting people down like assassins?
It's just getting worse.
146 Comments
Strawberrycocoa46 votesI mean by three items I would expect Vayne to be nuking you. What I hate is how quickly she can get there riding off just a few kills. I miss when everything snowballed slower so you had more time to regroup if the enemy got a bit of a lead. Now the smallest god damn lead wins the whole lane.
DeusVult4 votesbut Vayne is supposed to be the "deal lots of damage over time" adc because of her silver bolts passive and desire to build AS.
But crit chance just allows her to do that AND kill squishies in 3-4 autos. Maybe less
Kaìju25 votesThe problem is not the damage itself, it's how cheap it is. I've been an ADC main for about two years or so now, and the games are shorter partly because carrybitems are cheaper. If I get four kill bot lane at 10 minutes, I gave IE and a Zeal. That is enough damage to start doing my job. Vayne or Xayah, marksmen with a burst combo coke online at IE Statik. MF starts doing 700 damage autos at Duskblade Youmuus. The solution is to make the items more expensive.
Here is why the gold price needs to go up. •More expensive items means losing lane isn't a death sentence. •Taking longer for carries, a class designed around ending the game, to get their items means games end slower. •If carries take longer to get their damage then teams will need to stop playing full damage comps and start taking real comps that are not comprised of Fiora, Xin, Zed, Lux, and Ezreal. This is because with less damage carries will no longer be able to self peel by nuking their aggressor and teams will need to start using peel more, making the game less snowball heavy due to the lack of three+ carries per team.
In most of my games I see three or four carries per team. Using just my friends as an example we can see this. Yasuo/ main mid, Darius/GP player top, Zyra main supp, plus me on carry. This isn't including the probably assassin or fighter/bruiser jungle like Shyvana, Yi, Kindred, or other.
Runes do a lot of damage, full damage team comps do a lot of damage, getting maxed out damage items early does a lot of damage. The game slows down if these carry items are made more expensive.
TLDR: Less items means less damage, less damage means less kills, less kills means less objectives, less objectives means longer games.
Daddy Ants3 votesThe problem is not the damage itself, it's how cheap it is. I've been an ADC main for about two years or so now, and the games are shorter partly because carrybitems are cheaper. If I get four kill bot lane at 10 minutes, I gave IE and a Zeal. That is enough damage to start doing my job. Vayne or Xayah, marksmen with a burst combo coke online at IE Statik. MF starts doing 700 damage autos at Duskblade Youmuus. The solution is to make the items more expensive.
Here is why the gold price needs to go up. •More expensive items means losing lane isn't a death sentence. •Taking longer for carries, a class designed around ending the game, to get their items means games end slower. •If carries take longer to get their damage then teams will need to stop playing full damage comps and start taking real comps that are not comprised of Fiora, Xin, Zed, Lux, and Ezreal. This is because with less damage carries will no longer be able to self peel by nuking their aggressor and teams will need to start using peel more, making the game less snowball heavy due to the lack of three+ carries per team.
In most of my games I see three or four carries per team. Using just my friends as an example we can see this. Yasuo/ main mid, Darius/GP player top, Zyra main supp, plus me on carry. This isn't including the probably assassin or fighter/bruiser jungle like Shyvana, Yi, Kindred, or other.
Runes do a lot of damage, full damage team comps do a lot of damage, getting maxed out damage items early does a lot of damage. The game slows down if these carry items are made more expensive.
TLDR: Less items means less damage, less damage means less kills, less kills means less objectives, less objectives means longer games.
I stopped reading at "MF starts doing 700 damage AUTOS"
No she doesn't.
WolfChases12 votesNot 700 but about 700 on a squishy for sure. Her Q also hits like Nasus Q. After Duskblade, one single Q sends you back to base lol.
Leu0717 votesI hate vayne so bad, I know Ill lose when she is on the enemy team, no matter if she was behind, she gets two item and starts 3 AA kill people, she does not need armor pen cuz of her W and her R and Q makes her hard to catch, may God have mercy on you if she has a Karma, Lulu or Janna supp.
Ok sure but why14 votesIt's a real sad day when the Attack Damage Carry starts carrying people with their attack damage
Xeref58 votesyeah late game hyper carries carreing early mid game untouchable by anything other than hard cc
Ok sure but why5 votesIt's a real sad day when not every champion has hard cc and late game nearly never happens anymore
Troll for Trump16 votesCan you please drop the attitude
WolfChases5 votesHe can't. He probably mains Vayne.
LuxannaVeritas6 votesI think his attitude is pretty justified here.
On these boards, there has been two big opinions swirling around.
- Late game is barely getting reached anymore; the game usually ends before then. (I agree with this point)
- Late game damage carries are doing too much damage in the early/mid game due to easier snowballing.
So, if this is the case, Vayne should have a high win-rate early-mid game, right? And since games that go until the early-mid game are becoming more popular, she should have an above-average win rate overall, right?
Here's a problem. She doesn't, unless you consider a 48.93% win rate above average.
According to op.gg, Vayne has the 15th highest win-rate of ADCs in games that last under 25 minutes. That's pretty good... if it wasn't out of 16 marksman. That's right, Vayne has the SECOND-LOWEST win rate out of any ADC in games that end in less than 25 minutes.
Wow.
Between 25-30 minutes isn't much of a help either; she's 11th. Once we get past 30 minutes, a.k.a once she's reaching her 3 items, she tops the win-rate charts. Which isn't surprising, since she's a hyper carry and all. The point here is that the statistics prove she does MUCH worse when games last for 29 minutes or shorter. Oh, which is exactly against what the majority of the boards is saying!
Here's the kicker; any talk about late-game carries doing too much damage early will be hyperbolism, because it does NOT happen often. If they ARE doing too much damage in your game, then your bot lane probably played really poorly and gifted those kills and gold over. Remember, lane kills should almost NEVER happen if the laners are of equal skill value, unless there's a gank. In most games nowadays, Vayne doesn't have the time to reach her three items, and the game ends before Vayne can get online.
So let's stop talking about this like it happens all the time. It doesn't.
Thryale24 votesright. the problem is vayne and other ADC's like her aren't supposed to come 'online' until at least 30-40 min into the game. but atm they're coming online around the 15 min mark and are obliterating everyone.
UpDownLeftRightAB12 votesOh, that was Old league, NEW™ League is a quick 25-30 minute game meant for more fun!
Thryale10 votesyeah. I understand yer being sarcastic, but I can't see how a 25 min game of league will ever be more fun than a 35-40 min game. If games finish faster, it means that no one has a chance to get a full build and someone has snowballed out of control.
The core fundamentals of league are not compatible with short games. And to get the average shorter than 35 min average means that excessive snowballing and damage output has to be high with long death timers for that to be possible.
UpDownLeftRightAB2 votesOh, totally, I liked the long 60-80 minute games of beta.
Not xPeke5 votesThat's because the average league match lasts less than 30 minutes across all ELO's and all regions...
The whole power curve shifted downards, earlier, etc. That's what we get thanks to Riot's shortening games more and more.
I hate it.
Leu0713 votesI hate vayne so bad, I know Ill lose when she is on the enemy team, no matter if she was behind, she gets two item and starts 3 AA kill people, she does not need armor pen cuz of her W and her R and Q makes her hard to catch, may God have mercy on you if she has a Karma, Lulu or Janna supp.
Big Black Croc4 votesWait, did you just comment the same thing twice?
Athenes Lulu12 votesI'm also tired of two item tanks bursting people down like assassins by only building tank items, and it's just getting worse.
nGio20 votesYou can just say "2 item Ornns", and stop with the whole "tank" thing. You sure as fuck aren't talking about tanks 2 shotting anyone.....
Damage is through the roof on just about anyone who builds it, and the tank class is getting shit on the hardest right now. Outside of a couple of recently reworked/buffed outliers, that class is a steaming pile of under performing shit atm.
dominusx10 votesRammus shits on everything in sight still even tho he lost early game power with the armor removal. Mundo does no dmg? Yeh right. Tahm does no dmg? yeh sure mate..Do i even need to comment on Galio? Rest are shit cause riot only cares about their LC$bigPlays champs that do flashy aoe shit.
WolfChases4 votesAaaaiiinnnt gonna happen dude. Juggernauts yes, tanks nope. Darius might kill you with 2 items but Sejuani will not.
option paralysis9 votesWe late game now BOYS 
Asudurga8 votesI am sick of 
having such a short detection radius compared to his range and Burst Per Second. At least I would see 
or 
before they burst me down.
Fairyfleur6 votesSo how would you like to fix it?
JustSaiyan6913 votesMake crit items less cheap, and completely getting rid of either her true damage or percent health damage because putting both of those in the same sentence is worse than commiting murder.
Either that or just lowering precent health damage to 10% across the board so cancer like Fiora and Vayne cant legit 3 shot tanks.
ZephyrDrake7 votesMake crit items less cheap, and completely getting rid of either her true damage or percent health damage because putting both of those in the same sentence is worse than commiting murder.
Either that or just lowering precent health damage to 10% across the board so cancer like Fiora and Vayne cant legit 3 shot tanks.
i really want to see this vayne or fiora 3 shotting a tank. Unless that tank is so underfed and underlvl'd that is literally impossible
JustSaiyan695 votesI'll admit Fiora 3 shotting is an exaggeration, she's more of like a 5-10 autos, Vayne on the other hand can and has. With defense being lowered across the board, and with the new runes increasing damage creep even higher than last season, it isn't far fetched.
My point still stands though Fiora and Vayne having percent hp true damage is completely ridiculous. I can allow it on Fiora as long as they nerf her ms, but Vayne is unacceptable since she's ranged.
ZephyrDrake5 votesI'll admit Fiora 3 shotting is an exaggeration, she's more of like a 5-10 autos, Vayne on the other hand can and has. With defense being lowered across the board, and with the new runes increasing damage creep even higher than last season, it isn't far fetched.
My point still stands though Fiora and Vayne having percent hp true damage is completely ridiculous. I can allow it on Fiora as long as they nerf her ms, but Vayne is unacceptable since she's ranged.
give me a replay of it happening or you are lying. Sorry but a Vayne isn't 3 shotting any tanks at all unless she is so fed or they are so underlvl'd that at that point anything could 3 shot them.
JustSaiyan696 votesLook up a video, I'm not doing research for you. You're completely avoiding my actual point that is percent health true damage being bullshit and crit itemization being too cheap. Those 2 things are what makes Vayne such an annoying champion.
That and maybe her self peel.
ZephyrDrake6 votesLook up a video, I'm not doing research for you. You're completely avoiding my actual point that is percent health true damage being bullshit and crit itemization being too cheap. Those 2 things are what makes Vayne such an annoying champion.
That and maybe her self peel.
"look up a video" sorry but no you provide me with actual proof instead of sending me off to find it on my own that is not how that works. Also She has nothing outside of her attack range. Nothing at all. Her range isn't even that high. She has no way but literally be in people's faces in order for her to do anything which means if you or someone on your team is good enough you can catch her very easily. Is Vayne strong when she gets ahead? yes! just like every single other champion in the game. When you give Vayne something other than her auto attack range to do anything of value you can then talk about taking away things from her. Since all that will accomplish otherwise is just make her not be worth playing in the slightest
ninjaroxas4 votesYou not trying to find out if it's true or not is you just admitting you are scared you are wrong
Weiss Guertena3 votesHe's right tho. If Vayne attacks 3 times, she deals 12% of max HP as true damage. So to be 3-shotting a tank, she also needs to deal 88% if their HP in physical damage, or almost 30% per AA. This means that, post armor, she has to do more than 1000 damage each attack. You'll agree that this is pretty much impossible unless Vayne is insanely fed and tank was AFK with disadvantage in both levels and gold.
ninjaroxas2 votesYou assume this is full builds though. Lets say each one has 3 completed items. vayne would most likely ie, shiv, and a botrk. Lets say the tank has an average amount of base armor and health.The tank has deadmans sprit visage, and sun fire. Assume ing vayne crits all 3 times and 2 of them are a Q-crit. Does a 3 shot sound that unlikely. I know she isn't gonna 3 shot a tank late game and maybe not even in this case since i don't know the exact math but i think it's possible
Weiss Guertena2 votesOnly assumption I'm making is that Vayne's W is at max level. 12% max HP is 12% max HP, meaning that no matter the builds other 88% will have to come from Vayne's AA damage. Even with average HP tank will most likeli have 2.5k+ at that point, meaning Vayne will still have to do more than 700 post-mitigation damage each AA.
In your example it's still unlikely. Vayne has 50% crit and no penetration, while tank has 3 items giving fair amounts of HP; two of which have armor and third one has MR which mitigates Shiv. With 3 items both champions probably also have finished boots too; Vayne will always go Berserkers and tank will probabably have Tabis, further reducing Vayne's damage. Sure, Vayne will be able to easily 1v1 a tank due to her mobility and E, but it will surely take more than 3 AAs to do so.
ZephyrDrake4 votesYou not trying to find out if it's true or not is you just admitting you are scared you are wrong
yes, i'm scared... so scared to waste my time. You either give me proof or shut up
ninjaroxas3 votesLol how about you don't be lazy? Here I'll give you the steps on how to do it
You already have step one done of opening your browser, next you open a new tab, then you type in Y-o-u-t-u-b-e, after that all you have to do is search "vayne 3 shot" and boom in a matter of 10 seconds you have found out if it's possible.
Im not even really on either side, i wouldn't be shocked if vayne could 3 shot though
ZephyrDrake4 votesLol how about you don't be lazy? Here I'll give you the steps on how to do it
You already have step one done of opening your browser, next you open a new tab, then you type in Y-o-u-t-u-b-e, after that all you have to do is search "vayne 3 shot" and boom in a matter of 10 seconds you have found out if it's possible.
Im not even really on either side, i wouldn't be shocked if vayne could 3 shot though
give me a proof yourself. I am not looking up a single video. You cannot give me a video? then you are LYING! simple as that
ninjaroxas3 votesCan you prove she can't 3 shot?
ZephyrDrake5 votesCan you prove she can't 3 shot?
that is not how this works. I would love to see your reports on something
CithriaC3 votesReply to NinjaRoxas, don't know if the boards is putting this in the right place.
He means that when you make a claim, back it up with evidence, otherwise this could happen very easily
-"Ghosts are real"
-"No their not"
-"Yes they are"
-"Show me proof"
-"No, you show me proof that they are fake"
-"What the heck"
-"Dont be lazy, just go to the library already"
He isn't the one who made the claim that vayne can 3-shot tanks, you/the guy you agree with did, so the burden of proof would be on you to find the evidence.
source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/burden_of_proof
But if you want proof, Weiss Guertena already said it.
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesVayne can 3 shot. Squishies.
Whether or not she can do this to tanks needs a lot more variables.
Like items on both sides, levels, etc.
As different scenarios are different, you can't really use overarching blanket statements such as "Vayne 3 shots" without any context UNLESS Vayne 3 shots everyone consistently at all points in the game, which is obviously not true.
CithriaC2 votes[{quoted}](name=Weiss Guertena,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fzp9hoWE,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-26T13:53:25.628+0000)
He's right tho. If Vayne attacks 3 times, she deals 12% of max HP as true damage. So to be 3-shotting a tank, she also needs to deal 88% if their HP in physical damage, or almost 30% per AA. This means that, post armor, she has to do more than 1000 damage each attack. You'll agree that this is pretty much impossible unless Vayne is insanely fed and tank was AFK with disadvantage in both levels and gold.
I agree that vayne is annoying, but her damage isn't the problem.
OP Garen Support3 votesMy 5000K HP tank Sion got deleted in less then 2 seconds against Vayne.
ZephyrDrake2 votes[{quoted}](name=OP Garen Support,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fzp9hoWE,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-26T13:04:49.462+0000)
My 5000K HP tank Sion got deleted in less then 2 seconds against Vayne.
give me a replay or it didn't happen
OP Garen Support2 votesHere you go
I was wrong it took 4-5 seconds she killed 2 other people first.
PB4UAME2 votesJesus, the physical damage per auto alone was over 500 each hit, against a lategame looked like full build tank.
DarkRooster4 votesIt does happen and almost every game
ADC5LUT4 votesXayah bursting people is fine, she has to seriously outplay you (or you outplay yourself) in order for her to get maximum burst damage.
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