"I want ADC to be less shitty to play"

Marshbouy·Feb 5, 2019·47 votes·13,756 views

"SO YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO THE ARDENT META? YOU WANT TO BE THE ONLY PROTAGONIST OF THE GAME WHILE EVERYONE ELSE PLAYS AROUND YOU?"

"No, I just don't want to instantly die every time an enemy champion breathes in my general direction"

"SO YOU WANT TO GO BACK TO PRESEASON 6 WHEN THERE ARE 4 MARKSMEN ON THE MAP AT ANY TIME?"

It's almost like there is a gray area between the extremes of "everyone in the game is focused around ADCs" and "ADC isn't even relevant." Both extremes are ass and right now we are leaning more towards the latter.

No one who played bot lane enjoyed the ardent meta except for the brief moments when they popped off and got a quadra or something. The rest of the time it was spent dodging 4 and even 5 mans who are grouping bot for the tower and trying to get ardent censer first.

There are various ways (runes, items, individual champ balancing, etc.) that riot can work with to make ADCs less shitty to play while also preventing them from becoming the only meaningful thing in a game.

But as soon as you say "improve the game for ADCs" some people only hear "overbuff support items and bring back preseason 6"

EDIT:

ITT:

RANGE PEOPLE BAD MELEE PEOPLE GOOD

I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the game playing my role because fuck me apparently.

126 Comments

Hayaishi2Feb 5, 201933 votes

Too many people on the boards don't want balance, they just want to see whatever they hate (In this case ADC) rot.

Like not a single post complaining about the state of ADCs has suggested we should go back to ardent meta but a large amount of people post garbage like "Better than adcs dominating every game" "i dont wanna go back to better bot wins meta" as if anyone was suggesting anything like that.

SaezioFeb 5, 201914 votes

But adc is still integral to any composition, so how can we even debate their relevance? I mean last year when adc wasn't relevant for _ 1 FUCKING PATCH _ they were insta buffed directly and indirectly. Tanks have not been relevant for how long now? And no tank buffs yet. Only nerfs and more damage in the fucking _RESOLVE TREE _

AntiSJWFeb 5, 20194 votes

true dat

Chembaron YamadaFeb 6, 20192 votes

But adc is still integral to any composition

Not really true, at least not in pro play. We see quite some games with mages bot lane instead of an ADC, like Viktor for example.

JhinuinelyDunkFeb 6, 20193 votes

Who cares about pro play

JamenawerlFeb 5, 201916 votes

ADC mains just dont want to understand that if they are blowing everyone up from range without cooldowns they should instantly die if they misposition. Its the only possible counterplay if you are a point and click-nuke-spam machine with a shield battery. You want to have more agency, go play assassins or bruisers. But then you wont be able to nuke the living shit out of everyone without exposing yourself. If you ask for marksmen to have more survivability, also ask for a nerf to their damage and reliability. That'd be fair. But you dont want that, do you? No, you want to return to ardent meta without calling it ardent meta.

As a former top main that plays mostly ADC now I always cringe when I hear this kind of shit. You people dont even know how easy you have it when your class is always meta and actually has impact on the outcome of the game. L2p.

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 201912 votes

{quoted}

ADC mains just dont want to understand that if they are blowing everyone up from range without cooldowns they should instantly die if they misposition. Its the only possible counterplay if you are a point and click-nuke-spam machine with a shield battery. You want to have more agency, go play assassins or bruisers. But then you wont be able to nuke the living shit out of everyone without exposing yourself. If you ask for marksmen to have more survivability, also ask for a nerf to their damage and reliability. That'd be fair. But you dont want that, do you? No, you want to return to ardent meta without calling it ardent meta.

As a former top main that plays mostly ADC now I always cringe when I hear this kind of shit. You people dont even know how easy you have it when your class is always meta and actually has impact on the outcome of the game. L2p.

be careful, you might make yourself "unwelcome" by saying something they dont like to hear.

JamenawerlFeb 5, 201911 votes

Yeah like, I always picture their asses walking up to a Zed who has ult to auto him and then complain that they died.

Its a mechanically difficult class but it only requires to do 2 things right: kiting and positioning. Yet they refuse to learn those 2 simple things to cry on the boards. Its not that they dont understand what they have to do like it happens with more complex roles, they just dont want to improve.

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 201914 votes

{quoted}

Yeah like, I always picture their asses walking up to a Zed who has ult to auto him and then complain that they died.

Its a mechanically difficult class but it only requires to do 2 things right: kiting and positioning. Yet they refuse to learn those 2 simple things to cry on the boards.

well the problem is, i can kindof see their side aswell.

like camille flies at a marksmen over two screens and locks them down then kills them. you have champions like rengar who jump at them from outside their own range and delete them in half a second before they get a chance to press a button to save themselves.

the problem is, what happens when they do reliably manage to save themselves. that was literally the ardent meta, when supports just stacked shields on them. turns out, marksmen tend to be just as bullshit as leblanc, rengar, and all the champions who reliably blow them up, when they dont get blown up.

its just a race of who can bullshit who more, and it will never change until the champions themselves dont change.

maybe making marksmens ability to carry not entirely tied to auto attacks but kit inherent mechanics that arent reliable, and are outplayable, just like juggernauts and other melee carries are designed, would open up some power budget for extra defense.

JamenawerlFeb 5, 20194 votes

I agree.

But Camille and LB arent just an ADC problem, they do that shit to everyone. And as much as I hate to defend Rengar, he has counterplay on his ult. And who else does thank kind of BS? Maybe Hecarim and full AD Noc when they are strong. Thats it.

Its like asking to buff juggernauts every time Kog (just to give an example, because almost every ADC shits on juggers) is strong. Its ridiculous. You just ask for Kog nerfs.

LTK KoRoFeb 5, 20193 votes

Camille is a problem to squishies only. If she uses her E+R to gapclose from two screens it means she missed her E stun. Which means she's unable to win fight vs any bruiser, assassin or even most of the mages. Only ADCs and squishy supports get screwed hard by her.

JamenawerlFeb 5, 20194 votes

Id argue that Camille wins to mages 1v1 but even if that were not the case my point still stands. You dont ask to buff a whole class just because 1 champion feels bad to play against. You ask to change that champion.

LTK KoRoFeb 5, 20194 votes

In Camille case i would say that she just counters ADCs, which is totally fine. A lot of other hard counters feels even shittier to play against, like any immobile melee vs Kalista/Vayne.

Im just an Camille apologist/abuser, don't include me while talking about overall balancing, i never intended to talk about it

AjXtarFeb 6, 20193 votes

the game hate on this sub is so bullshit that you people started to create a different reality where camille will just jump in a team fight and kill the adc just like that.

Nobody cares that she is still damn squishy, that her E can be blocked way before she can reach her target, that her damage is delayed and is easy.

You people would rather bitch about other champions than learn to position correctly. "muh, adc weak. NARF CAMILLE"

That's you all are.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 5, 20193 votes

Walk up to Zed? Dude his W-R range is about 1250 which is about 600 more than the highest base range any marksman has.

And most of them sit at like 500.

Furthermore you cant kite a damn kha6 who either jumps ontop of you or runs up invisible, hitting you with a q then going invisible again before another Q-AA comes in and kills you, if you dont have a lulu/janna/taric here you wont survive that.

The only option becomes to just sit out fights until these guys burn their abilities while you watch your team die, a very shitty feeling indeed.

Its because of stuff like that that Vayne/Lucian and kai sa are so popular, you are basically a marksman/assassin so conventional rules dont apply, if an enemy gapcloses onto you its easy to break away and deal a lot of instant damage before they even know they missed you.

I mean in terms of pure DPS kog and Varus are the best but they also die the most along with Ashe......no mobility or selfpeel is extremely crippling.

JamenawerlFeb 5, 20197 votes

In a vacuum sure, they have it extremely easy to kill ADCs, in an actual teamfight with a frontline and a support its much harder for them to oneshot you.

The only option becomes to just sit out fights until these guys burn their abilities

I know it sounds stupid but thats essentially what you do sometimes. If they dont burn their abilites your frontline will kill them or zone them and someone less dangerous (like an enemy tank) will get in range for you to hit him. Sooner or later you will be able to enter the fights. If you cant you probably got zoned and outplayed.

Ofc there are many variables every teamfight but talking from experience in very few instances playing ADC I have the sensation of being useless. If an opportunity for me to enter the fight doesnt appear I generally feel that me or my team fucked up.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 5, 20192 votes

I´ve played marksmen a lot and let me tell ya, even if you do have a frontline its pointless in a number of cases if you dont have a support like lulu etc.

Why? Because something like kha6 or shaco can easily bypass your frontline and instantly kill you before anyone has the chance to interfere.

I´ve had full AD jarvan go like flash-EQR-AA-tiamant-AA and blow me to kingdom come without my team being able to say a peep many time as well.

To be honest i dont believe any marksman right now aside from Vayne, kai´sa, lucian and Sivir are worth anything, they are the only ones who can reliably survive and dont need to follow the rules that the other ones follow.

I myself play Sivir a lot right now but even so i find that building defenses against assassins dont really archive anything, its better to just pump everything into a burst build with stormrazor-static shiv-IE-Rapidfire and just attempt to kill any assassin that comes after me before they kill me.

Phantom dancer? Hurricane? A measly 12% damage reduction against your last hit opponent doesnt actually help very often because usually its a overkill anyway.....AOE potential is only useful if alive to use it.

I quite frequently feel that my opponents, especially when they have a strong assassin or mage present while i lack peel,are the ones to majorly screw up when i manage to enter fights, i mean those guys could just sit on the side waiting for their own backline to decimate my front and keep me from ever acting.

JamenawerlFeb 5, 20194 votes

Try building item 3047 item 3026 item 3812 . Against mages a little bit of MR is usually enough to prevent a true oneshot unless we are talking about Syndra or some shit. A midgame item 1033 usually helps a lot. Not that they wont be able to kill you but it will be a lot harder.

Khazix has to catch you isolated to oneshot you in one combo. Shaco oneshot potential greatly depends on runes and items so it can greatly vary. If you know he is near you pop red-trinket and blow him up. His mobility isnt that great, its just a matter of predicting his assassination attempts. Full AD Jarvan is just r-tarded but I dont think he is a very good pick outside a clown fiesta honestly. Its more of a meme build.

I quite frequently feel that my opponents, especially when they have a strong assassin or mage present while i lack peel,are the ones to majorly screw up when i manage to enter fights, i mean those guys could just sit on the side waiting for their own backline to decimate my front and keep me from ever acting.

I know what you mean but a lot of the time from their point of view its the same shit. They may not be able to stay out of the fight just to zone you. As I said it varies greatly from game to game because it depends on a lot of variables so its hard to analyze, but in my personal experience its balanced, even if it can be annoying some times.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 5, 20192 votes

Ninja tabi i do get when i dont accidentally buy berserkers before my brain catches up with me, but both GA and DD are items you can only really get after your third item.

Kha6 doesnt have to kill me in a single combo, he usually has a lot of time given his stealth x)

And my issue with shaco is exactly that if he is any good then there is no warning, full AD jarvan is only a meme if anyone like lulu is around to stop him from detonating his targets.

However fair enough on the early null magic mantle, i´ll keep that one in mind.

HàrrowRFeb 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah like, I always picture their asses walking up to a Zed who has ult to auto him and then complain that they died.

Its a mechanically difficult class but it only requires to do 2 things right: kiting and positioning. Yet they refuse to learn those 2 simple things to cry on the boards. Its not that they dont understand what they have to do like it happens with more complex roles, they just dont want to improve.

Yup, plat and diamond adcs like myself are complaining cause they are trying to 1v1 Zed in melee, i sure hope you can teach me how to kite and position, hell you can teach all of us, maybe teach Sneaky while you're at it, its an old video but it shows what carries have to deal with, no positioning and kiting can help you when you get flashed on and insta gibbed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS9BHPxoXSw

JamenawerlFeb 5, 20195 votes

I've seen a lot of garbage plat ADCs not respecting Zed and trying to auto him. Not in melee, but ofc if you try to auto him he will jump in your face and oneshot you.

90% of that video is Sneaky going full r-tard in yoloQ and getting oneshot from fog of war. Cmon.

I know how frustrating it is to get instagibbed and I actually hate assassins even more than ADCs but its balanced. Id gladly have it changed but an ADC buff isnt the solution, as you probably know already.

HàrrowRFeb 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

ADC mains just dont want to understand that if they are blowing everyone up from range without cooldowns they should instantly die if they misposition. Its the only possible counterplay if you are a point and click-nuke-spam machine with a shield battery. You want to have more agency, go play assassins or bruisers. But then you wont be able to nuke the living shit out of everyone without exposing yourself. If you ask for marksmen to have more survivability, also ask for a nerf to their damage and reliability. That'd be fair. But you dont want that, do you? No, you want to return to ardent meta without calling it ardent meta.

As a former top main that plays mostly ADC now I always cringe when I hear this kind of shit. You people dont even know how easy you have it when your class is always meta and actually has impact on the outcome of the game. L2p.

Stop god damn speaking for the rest of us, i've been saying for years now that ADCs should get more surviveability and less damage, hell go into my old posts from years ago and you'll see that i was talking about making carries more like mages, cc,burst,hp, surviveability but also less point and click auto damage, more ability damage, more mana issues and cooldown management, hell maybe even lower the range idgaf since most champs have 3 dashes now, a heal and a shield so it doesn't matter they can catch you in a fountain.

Also it goes both ways, i've randomly started playing Yorick top as a life long adc main that never touched top lane and i can carry just as easily as with an adc cause i actually have some agency and can at least split push and get an inhib or finish the game on my own. The grass is always greener on the other side

JamenawerlFeb 5, 20194 votes

Im just stating that most ADC players are whiny bitches. Most, not every single one of them. I've also said that marksmen should be less reliable and less dependant on their team in the past.

I know it feels like shit sometimes, but its balanced. To preserve balance, if they buff their survivability they would have to nerf their damage. I actually support the idea but every forum poster seems to forget the "nerf" part, and it annoys me.

Also it goes both ways, i've randomly started playing Yorick top as a life long adc main that never touched top lane and i can carry just as easily as with an adc cause i actually have some agency and can at least split push and get an inhib or finish the game on my own. The grass is always greener on the other side

Kek. If you say it seriously good luck, you will legit end up wanting to quit the game. I stopped playing toplane 2 seasons ago and I regret nothing. You think you have it rough but you cant even begin to fathom how the balance team has been treating toplaners since season 4, or even before. Id rather play lethality ADCs during ardent meta and CotC tank meta than play toplane. Which is exactly what I did. LOL.

Daddy AntsFeb 5, 201910 votes

No ADC main wants to be the main influence on the outcome of a game....

We want to be able to contribute to the outcome of the game in some way.

{quoted}

Only people who have never breathed in the direction of ADC can ever say that Ardent meta was a good time for ADCs.

Ardent meta was literally a race to get your Support to Ardent Censer... It wasn't even close to an ADC meta as people think.

The ADC's impact in that meta was "Take Relic shield and farm well, Hope your support finishes their Ardent first"

Twitch Tristana KogMaw were the only ADC's who "had a good time" during that meta.

Ardent Meta was also unhealthy for bot lane due to the fact that if you didn't pick Janna Karma Nami Lulu Sona Soraka Rakan you were borderline trolling.

OtterlyLostFeb 5, 20191 votes

As a Tristana main, I can say that it wasnt even fun for her. :/ in part because anytime Tristana is even slightly popular and okay to play, people pull out pitchforks and Riot always guts another part of her kit, which is disheartening for the 1% or less of people who actually main her and will have to play her after they fix whatever item(and its always items) is making her okay.

But it also was unfun because you still didnt have any agency in the lane phase and your build path was stagnant and boring. I'm still disappointed that all they did was a crit revert and they turned stormrazor into another energizer item.

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20199 votes

{quoted}

As a Tristana main, I can say that it wasnt even fun for her. :/ in part because anytime Tristana is even slightly popular and okay to play, people pull out pitchforks and Riot always guts another part of her kit, which is disheartening for the 1% or less of people who actually main her and will have to play her after they fix whatever item(and its always items) is making her okay.

But it also was unfun because you still didnt have any agency in the lane phase and your build path was stagnant and boring. I'm still disappointed that all they did was a crit revert and they turned stormrazor into another energizer item.

tristana is honestly another marksman with trash design.

shes just built to win against melee champions without a real chance for most of them to deal with anything in her kit.

they should shift power from her q into her e at the very least and rework her ult to not be an auto disengage button in case she fucks up and lets someone get through her 800 range twice.

they should make tristana deal shit for damage against anyone but the guy she has marked with her e. just cut the attack speed buff on her q down to 30% and add a % damage increase to her e, so she deals increased damage to the target that is marked by her bomb. maybe even make her bomb a skillshot, that latches onto people like zilean q in addition to that. reduce the cooldown to 10 seconds at all ranks.

so if you dodge her bomb she doesnt do nearly as much damage as now just off her auto attacks. if she hits it, shes allowed to carry.

if we added mechanics like that to marksmen kits and got them away from carrying entirely off 100% reliable auto attack damage, we could allow them to be ranged carries without instantly dieing to everything.

OtterlyLostFeb 5, 20193 votes

Not even going to bother arguing or talking to you. Your bias for melee champions and your failure to listen or attempt to understand how ADCs or the game works means we have next to nothing to talk about. You will never convince me of any of your malarkey and why you continue to appear on these posts where you're not welcome and are regularly proven wrong and bias absolutely baffles me.

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 201913 votes

{quoted}

Not even going to bother arguing or talking to you. Your bias for melee champions and your failure to listen or attempt to understand how ADCs or the game works means we have next to nothing to talk about. You will never convince me of any of your malarkey and why you continue to appear on these posts where you're not welcome and are regularly proven wrong and bias absolutely baffles me.

right, youve proven me totally wrong, how?

melee carries and ranged carries are held to entirely different design standarts for some reason.

except for some specific outdated champions (who are already on the VGU list), melee champions all have to be designed around mechanics that anyone should be able to outplay, no matter whos up against them.

look at fucking Aatrox for crying out loud. his entire kit is designed with abilites that only have an effect under certain conditions.

his q doesnt deal damage unless he hits the crit zones, his w doesnt displace when you walk out of it, his passive has an insane cooldown unless he hits enemies with abilities. it doesnt matter which champion youre playing, because his kit has inherent counterplay in its skillshots and the delayed impact of his w, you always have a way to outplay him.

now look at ranged carries inlcuding Tristana what counterplay they offer to their opponents. attack speed steroids on button presses, 95% of her damage comes from her auto attacks (from flat stats on items), and her bomb makes only a minor portion of her kit. her r is a straight up "oh shit, i played terrible" button that cant be outplayed by anything but spellshields which very few champions can access.

if tristana was designed like a melee carry, her bomb would be a skillshot, and 90% of her carry potential would hinge on the ability to hit the bomb on the right target.

this is why balancing the game around marksmen is so shit. theyre the most stat checky class in the game.

kingDeDeDariusFeb 5, 20194 votes

Agreed

HàrrowRFeb 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t1w9sL14,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-02-05T14:13:26.833+0000)

tristana is honestly another marksman with trash design.

shes just built to win against melee champions without a real chance for most of them to deal with anything in her kit.

they should shift power from her q into her e at the very least and rework her ult to not be an auto disengage button in case she fucks up and lets someone get through her 800 range twice.

they should make tristana deal shit for damage against anyone but the guy she has marked with her e. just cut the attack speed buff on her q down to 30% and add a % damage increase to her e, so she deals increased damage to the target that is marked by her bomb. maybe even make her bomb a skillshot, that latches onto people like zilean q in addition to that. reduce the cooldown to 10 seconds at all ranks.

so if you dodge her bomb she doesnt do nearly as much damage as now just off her auto attacks. if she hits it, shes allowed to carry.

if we added mechanics like that to marksmen kits and got them away from carrying entirely off 100% reliable auto attack damage, we could allow them to be ranged carries without instantly dieing to everything.

You're one of the most biased anti adc people on these boards, i see you write stupid things all the time, hell i think once it was you who actually got mad that you couldn't kill adcs and his support and suggested that a juggernaut shouldn't be stopped unless there's at least 3 people on him.

You have a specific perception of what the game SHOULD be according to you and you see anything that doesn't fit your narrative as a "mistake" riot made or as you would put it "trash design" , no Tristana is not a trash design, she's meant to be hard to kill and safe, her knockback or reset isn't a mistake that's somehow found its way into the game as much as Yasuo's wall, even though i hate it the most, isn't a mistake, its an intentional part of his kit.

I see a lot of people complaining what ADCs should and shouldn't do, oh i got bursted carries shouldn't do that, oh Vayne killed me 1v1 she shouldn't be able to do that, oh Ezreal has a flash he shouldn't have that, like why? Tristana,Vayne and Ezreal are one of the oldest champs in league and all 3 are pretty safe,bursty and good at 1v1s.

People got used to carries being weak a few years back especially seeing as how they added in some immobile carries while adding tons of mobility and damage to the game making them easier targets then ever before, but in reality every carry has its own sets of abilities, strengths and weaknesses, some are meant to be good dualists and some are meant to be burst or safe no matter how hard you try to deny it as a "mistake"

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20195 votes

{quoted}

You're one of the most biased anti adc people on these boards, i see you write stupid things all the time, hell i think once it was you who actually got mad that you couldn't kill adcs and his support and suggested that a juggernaut shouldn't be stopped unless there's at least 3 people on him.

literally never said that.

i do however think a juggernaut and a support should have an equal chance of winning against a marksman and his support, and riot should gear supports to be as good as enabling juggernauts, as protecting marksmen.

You have a specific perception of what the game SHOULD be according to you and you see anything that doesn't fit your narrative as a "mistake" riot made or as you would put it "trash design" , no Tristana is not a trash design, she's meant to be hard to kill and safe

then she shouldnt be a carry. why should a carry exist that is hard to kill on its own and unproportionally safe for how she can impact fights? thats dellusional and a great way to break the game.

every champion has to have some sort of weakness throughout the entire game to offset and justify their strength. and im not just talking about power curve and different impacts at different times of the game. if you make a ranged carry safe on her own, then she doesnt have a weakness. that shit doesnt fly.

I see a lot of people complaining what ADCs should and shouldn't do, oh i got bursted carries shouldn't do that, oh Vayne killed me 1v1 she shouldn't be able to do that, oh Ezreal has a flash he shouldn't have that, like why? Tristana,Vayne and Ezreal are one of the oldest champs in league and all 3 are pretty safe,bursty and good at 1v1s.

are you just coming up with random shit and building strawmen now? if youre gonna make accusations like that, provide quotes to support them.

tristana and vayne might be some of the oldest champions, but that dosnt mean theyre well designed. infact, by todays standarts for league, their design is absolute garbage and not even close to fair gameplay.

with ezreal, people arent complaining about his mobility, but how his q tends to break a lot of items and mechanics in this game, that are generally balanced on other champions.

if it werent for that, id put him up as an example for great marksmen design. because his q, w and r are abilities that you can outplay. something that a lot of marksmen dont have.

Bob the ToastrFeb 5, 201910 votes

I think the main problem people have with Tris is her W. It's got huge range, damage on impact, is resetable, and most frustratingly, can't be interrupted by CC. IMO if they at least let it be interrupted by CC people would complain about her less, and they could give her back some strength in other areas.

Daddy AntsFeb 5, 20197 votes

Critmaster Garen speaks about binary champions but plays Garen.

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 201920 votes

{quoted}

Critmaster Garen speaks about binary champions but plays Garen.

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

yes i do. garen has more counterplay than most adc. thats actually his biggest "problem", and why its difficult for him to be relevant at high mmr.

at the very least he has clearly defined cooldown windows to abuse. most marksmen dont even give you something like that to fight them.

KaìjuFeb 5, 20194 votes

Garen weaknesses. Cooldowns, melee, no strong gap closer, kite able depending on champion.

Strengths: Built in resistances, dmg resistance, tenacity, slow removal, speed boost, armor shred, silence, execute, moderate to high sustain.

flibitydooFeb 5, 20193 votes

also manaless and has juggernaut tier base stats in terms of ad and health growth (and probably other stats like armor and scaling ad)

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20195 votes

{quoted}

also manaless and has juggernaut tier base stats in terms of ad and health growth (and probably other stats like armor and scaling ad)

and also very defined cooldown windows. hes strong when his spin is available and very weak when its not.

tell me, what weaknesses does tristana have for all of her strength? what actual mechanic does vayne have in her kit that modifies her playstile in a way that justifies her max health % true damage the same way fiora has her vitals, and garen is restricted to the villain?

the way i understand it, vayne plays exactly the same way with her silver bolts as if she didnt have it. she just auto attacks any target infront of her that she can safely auto attack. there is no special condition that she has to fulfill to access her w passive. her playstile is exactly the same.

Sona PingFeb 6, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Garen weaknesses. Cooldowns, melee, no strong gap closer, kite able depending on champion.

Strengths: Built in resistances, dmg resistance, tenacity, slow removal, speed boost, armor shred, silence, execute, moderate to high sustain.

Yes, Garen has a kit with abilities; no one was questioning was that. And beyond that, I kinda think most champions in this game do as well.

GigglesOFeb 5, 201923 votes

Most ranged players don’t understand how much skill it takes to simply be melee without a dash.

Sir SaltarinFeb 5, 20195 votes

I'm starting to believe that instead of melees with no mobility mains and rangeds with no mobility mains hating each others we should focus on how cancer mobility rangeds and melees champs are.

kingDeDeDariusFeb 5, 20193 votes

I agree, I propose a truce! Nonmobiles must muster our forces and mobilize against our common enemies: the yasuos, Zed's, jax's, irelias, and vayne's of this world

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20196 votes

{quoted}

I agree, I propose a truce! Nonmobiles must muster our forces and mobilize against our common enemies: the yasuos, Zed's, jax's, irelias, and vayne's of this world

nope. the problem is still the reliability of the main damage source(s) of marksmen.

lets not forget, that the original champion who started the mobility and power creep in league of legends was Ashe pre season 1.

if marksmen werent carrying almost entirely off their auto attack damage, and were outplayable, they could be more resilient to gap closing and burst without being broken.

kingDeDeDariusFeb 5, 20193 votes

That might be the best way to word that conundrum that I have yet heard. Without a dash you have to think about different windows of opportunity, different defensive item builds, etc, that other classes of champs simply take for granted.

HàrrowRFeb 5, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Most ranged players don’t understand how much skill it takes to simply be melee without a dash.

Most melee players don't understand how much skill it takes to simply be ranged without a dash

NemeBroFeb 6, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Most melee players don't understand how much skill it takes to simply be ranged without a dash

Being ranged is an advantage. This is an inarguable fact my friend.

KaìjuFeb 5, 20195 votes

I played Garen once going Cleaver into full tank. My E did something like 600 to 1200 damage to somebody in one full go. I knew instantly "oh in specific scenarios this champion is braindead."

kingDeDeDariusFeb 5, 201910 votes

And oh in specific scenarios this champ is useless. Aka, when fighting gnar, kennen, Jaycee, vayne, any control mage, and long ranged adc with any form if hard cc, any champ that can simply jump away from you, etc