Tahm Kench is an example of bad balance decisions.

Galewings·Oct 8, 2015·56 votes·5,783 views

Hey riot, if you reealllyyy don't know what you want a champion to be (Jungle, Support, Top) you really shouldn't just random buff them for consecutive patches and then go "Oh wow. How did this happen?"

This is the same as Gnar. People called Gnar awful at release, but I knew, just looking at his kit (Let's face it, gnar's kit is incredibly toxic and cancerous for a top laner "balanced" by the uncontrollable rage mechanic) that he was going to be a huge problem one day. And he got buffed, and people figured how to kinda manage his passive. And then all of a sudden he became the undisputed top lane pick.

103 Comments

RalanrOct 8, 201518 votes

So...what's wrong with Tahm? I couldn't quite make out the specifics in your detailed explanation.

RyzeReworkOct 8, 201520 votes

{quoted}

So...what's wrong with Tahm? I couldn't quite make out the specifics in your detailed explanation.

What's wrong is KOO destroyed clg with tahm and now a qq thread has been posted

RalanrOct 8, 20152 votes

But...that's played on 5.18 and it's pro play.

JJI744Oct 8, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sxXy9gNO,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-08T19:26:09.218+0000)

What's wrong is KOO destroyed clg with tahm and now a qq thread has been posted

I missed that game, sadly.

But I can tell you Tahm has been turning up as a power-pick in higher ranks as of late. Ever since people figured out you can go jungle or top instead of support, Tahm has started walking around lategame with 5k HP (with a potential 5k shield) getting 400 magic damage on every AA and ability thanks to his ult passive.

Its not unusual for a full-tank Tahm to be topping damage charts in long matches. I don't think he needs nerfs, at least not massive ones, but he but he is certainly a powerful pick right now.

iamleburkOct 10, 20151 votes

It was a shit-stomp, dont watch it. If theres any game you should watch, its KT vs OG. Top-notch plays from both teams. CLG losing had nothing to do with Tahm Kench being OP, although he has the strengths of making dives completely useless, meaning he synergizes REALLY well with jinx. The loss had more to do with Doublelift somehow ending up in melee range of Kench all the time rather than him legit being overpowered, although Gorilla made a lot of nice plays with him. People are also ignoring the fact that the KOO support was putting in a shit load of practice on to kench, literally half of his SoloQ games between OGN finals and now were on Kench.

And he hasn't been used as a jungler or a top laner at all yet, i dont know how well he would do in competitive tbh. He seems like he would be shit on by any other viable top (Darius, Gnar, Fiora). Honestly, i dont see how he would be any different from a mundo in the top lane.

BigPooStormOct 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sxXy9gNO,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-08T19:26:09.218+0000)

What's wrong is KOO destroyed clg with tahm and now a qq thread has been posted

My god this. Might as well rename this thread to "I'm salty CLG got destroyed by KOO and didn't make it out of groups". No mention to the fact that DL took 2 turret shots for no reason and was the reason the double kill happened bot lane. No mention about how Gorilla played that champion perfectly. You've seen him in one game played brilliantly and start crying about how he's OP. Not only are NA fans delusional, the fact that this is upvoted shows they are brain dead as well.

RyzeReworkOct 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

My god this. Might as well rename this thread to "I'm salty CLG got destroyed by KOO and didn't make it out of groups". No mention to the fact that DL took 2 turret shots for no reason and was the reason the double kill happened bot lane. No mention about how Gorilla played that champion perfectly. You've seen him in one game played brilliantly and start crying about how he's OP. Not only are NA fans delusional, the fact that this is upvoted shows they are brain dead as well.

the moment when a aphromoo tries to fight tahm i was just like wtf are u doing? hes ganna eat u lol and then he dead

LankPantsOct 9, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sxXy9gNO,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-08T19:26:09.218+0000)

What's wrong is KOO destroyed clg with tahm and now a qq thread has been posted

There's nothing in this world that's more satisfying than watching Double Lift get dumpstered.

A Miss FortuneOct 9, 20153 votes

His kit is kind of overloaded.

He basically has 2 health bars with how his shield is set up, he's almost immune to poke damage, he has an insaneee amount of CC that makes it almost impossible to kite him, and even if he goes full tank he's largely rewarded with more damage for some reason. I think his Devour is pretty broken since It's value in gold is infinite, being able to invalidate one person from the game is so powerful and it shouldn't be on a 10 second cooldown. At least Fizz can only do it to himself and Bard's is an ultimate, Tahm can do it to any unit but himself on a really low cooldown.

Tahm can do really well with any build in most roles. I kind of got mad when I was like 25-5 as Kassadin with a pretty good amount of defensive items on top of my passive, and the full tank Tahm Support could 100-0 me. He does so much damage with tons of CC and he's impossibly tanky.

Bard RockOct 9, 20151 votes

I believe that says more about kassadin's current state than tahm's

A Miss FortuneOct 9, 20151 votes

Except Kassadin has no heal, he only is somewhat good against Magic Damage, his mana costs are insanely high, he has pretty trashy damage, and he has almost no CC. Oh and even with his passive he's squishy.

Bard RockOct 10, 20151 votes

Yes I meant that it says more about how weak kassadin is right now rather than how good tahm kench is.

luckmalloryOct 8, 201513 votes

Gnar and tahm are both balanced

YsayleOct 8, 201511 votes

Yoho, Tham kench main here~

in my opinion, he might be quite unbalanced in the jungle. However I'd say his top/support performances are fine.

First, let me remind you that, while tahm LOOKS like a tank, he isn't quite one.

He has no actual mobility, apart from his ult, which gives a big warning and must be channeled away from the enemy team, Which makes him EXTREMELY kitable. On top of that, he doesn't truly provide much in the CC field. Surely he has his devour and Q stun, but you need to put three stacks on the enemy. as the champ with no mobility. yeah, doing this to an adc is pretty hard, providing his team protects him.

On top of that, his early laning (top) is rather poor, you don't do much damages until you get your ult passive, and your mana costs are truly extreme. (if you try to tongue harass, you'll quickly run out)

I think the problem with tahm jungle is that once he gets a few levels in W, it almost instakills the jungle camps, going jungle also allows him to bypass his weak early game, and most of all, to get cinderhulk ,which synergies incredibly well with him.

So yeah, while I agree he may be problematic in the jungle, let's also remember that if he didn't do any damage, he would simply be entirely irrelevant. He is more a juggernaut than a tank if anything.

RetnusOct 9, 20152 votes

As another TK main, I fully agree with your summary. Honestly, people dont realize how bad his early game is. Pre-6 you have very little presence against the average top lane picks, and there are several supports that counter/invalidate his rotation bot lane. He's similar to Thresh when it comes to support style of play...but his power is only at it's most potent at MELEE range. Not 600+ range lanterns, hooks, or 400-ish range flays. That's not to say I find Thresh OP or anything, but it illustrates a point. I'd sooner say Tahm has more weaknesses to exploit than Thresh, and I've played as and against plenty of either champ.

Definitely agree with the jungle issue though. That cinderhulk is a touch too good on him, no argument there. Thats the sad thing though, jungle items have been well known for causing that issue, at least here and there.

theSoapOct 8, 20159 votes

Kench can go full defense and chunk people incredibly hard all the while swallowing them for half an hour then spitting them back out for an even bigger % of max hp

Low mana costs and perma 50+% slow

Muted SummonerOct 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Kench can go full defense and chunk people incredibly hard all the while swallowing them for half an hour then spitting them back out for an even bigger % of max hp

Low mana costs and perma 50+% slow

well His W is quite costly. Everything else is low because of his kit. hes meant to tongue frequently

Kitten of EvilOct 8, 20157 votes

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52283121.jpg

PrinceKOOct 8, 20154 votes

"tongue frequently"

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

SalidfingersOct 8, 20152 votes

if you see the red fish on yourself it is time to kite him.

JnFnRuOct 8, 20151 votes

The problem is as support, he should have like a 60second ish CD per Ally that he can devour. At least that gives the others a bit of counterplay time to go in and 2 v 2 them. He has his ridiculous grey health that turns into the biggest shield which imo should be capped at , lets say , aren't the usual shield base rates about 240max at lvl 5? His goes up to 3k health if he waits that long, its a joke.....

SalidfingersOct 8, 20152 votes

Well do you also take into account that it is hard for tahm to hard engage.

Its hard for him to kill someone unless they commit to the fight.

I am a support main and i can deal with tahm alone but with a TahmKench + Kalista kalista comp. That is Bull

JnFnRuOct 8, 20151 votes

I couldn't even imagine that lane.

But also as a support main, it is bull to play vs tahm and any tricky situation he eats ally and speedboosts away....

Ulquiorra995Oct 9, 20151 votes

Yeah, after committing to a kill and they just escaping like that because of one cheap ability with nothing you can do really feels terrible.

Thresh

JnFnRuOct 9, 20151 votes

Don't even get me started on that one.

It doesn't even work anymore to stand on the lantern so they can't click it.

It should be changed to if enemies right click the lantern, it disappears and the ally can't grab it anymore to allow counterplay if its in the middle of a fight.

Chromatic EagleOct 8, 20159 votes

I thought people liked it when a champion isn't limited to just one role?

Truly PridefulOct 8, 201512 votes

They like it until the champion beats them, then it's the most broken shit in the history of the game.

RalanrOct 8, 20153 votes

Truer words have not been spoken in this regard.

TeemoJenkinsOct 8, 20156 votes

So.... why isn't Gnar still the undisputed top lane pick?

JefftiffyOct 8, 20159 votes

{quoted}

So.... why isn't Gnar still the undisputed top lane pick?

Gnar has had counters introduced and has had his power spikes toned down. His boomerang CDs went up and his Mega Gnar went down. On top of that people finally figured out that picking pure melee people against him is bad and that if you do they better be able to stick to him.

He received mostly buffs to his his late game and nerfs to his early game. He had minor buffs to his kit to make sure he could actually land his kit, but besides that most of his changes were nerfs to early game and buffs to late game. Riot knew what they were doing with him.

Tahm on the other hand has had numerous flat buffs and even had new items that synergize with him really well added in. As well as making his kit easier and easier to use.

To put this in perspective. Tahm has an ability that is stronger than an ult in Heroes of the Storm. Not only does it do more damage, but it can also be used on allies. And to top it off the CD is about 1/4 (up to 1/8) the CD. So yea I think Tahm has a big problem.

NebuulOct 8, 201552 votes

Did you just say Tahm was unbalanced because of how his abilities compare to an ability in a completely different game?

killd0zerOct 8, 201530 votes

lmao this

mundo's op as fuck in Dota cus he doesn't have mana

JefftiffyOct 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Did you just say Tahm was unbalanced because of how his abilities compare to an ability in a completely different game?

The point is his ult in Heroes of the Storm does flat damage as a tank. This is also the same person with a better version of Thresh hook as one of his abilities and the rest of his abilities are generic damage and slowing abilities. So in a game where you scale with items, your ability scales not only better, but has better base values while being on 1/4 the CD minimum and has more flexibility. I'm sorry but that doesn't sound the least bit broken to you? The fact that an ultimate in one game exists in this game as a basic ability for a lower cost, more utility, more damage, more frequently, and the same kit has a mobility spell as their ult that works like a TF ult for 2 people. So tell me how is this not a loaded kit, but someone like Lee is loaded when they do relatively the same damage, are as hard to peel, and squishier.

When a tank does Lee's job better, there is a serious problem with a kit. I'm just pointing out how loaded one his abilities is in comparison to what an ult is supposed to be. To put it this way even if Tahm hit you for 0 damage every single hit except AAs and his devour he could kill someone when they have less than 18s of counter play. (because the CD starts on eating someone). Now you add in his slow, his innate tank, and his extra damage for building tank you create a kit capable of killing most people in the game in under 15s while being a tank.

ÑapoleoniOct 8, 201517 votes

I've created a chart to help you understand the game better.

League of Legends = League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm = Not League of Legends

See the difference?

MrSexyHoboOct 8, 201510 votes

That's not a chart it's a list. Here i've created a list to help you understand lists better.

Lists = Lists
Chart = Not a List

MrSexyHoboOct 8, 20156 votes

Here is a chart. http://botcrawl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Pointless-Pie-Chart-That-Says-Nothing.png

KeyLimePiesOct 9, 20152 votes

Nautilus Not a list :P

EedatOct 8, 20152 votes

On top of that people finally figured out that picking pure melee people against him is bad

Thats not 100% true. You should try playing MonkeyKing against him. Easiest lane of your life guaranteed.

Malphite Yasuo Rengar are also melee champs that do very well vs him. Pretty much any melee champ that has a low cd gap closer can force him into taking losing trades over and over in mini Gnar. Malph is the exception with the passive shield that is going to absorb 80% of his boomerangs while poking back with Q

SalidfingersOct 8, 20153 votes

Don't for get Olaf

Gnar was trash then and trash now. He was only good because people always tend to pick into there counters and when gnar picked into me they had a bad day.

luckmalloryOct 8, 20151 votes

I will gladly pick gnar into olaf.

SalidfingersOct 9, 20151 votes

and many people do

I just land all my q's auto attack and when gnar rages i ULT and he will just die :P

luckmalloryOct 9, 20151 votes

In no way shape or form could you just burst 100-0 mega gnar at any point in the game. And with how good gnar is a t kiting, good luck landing those Q's fam

SalidfingersOct 10, 20151 votes

Not hard to land q's, it only takes one.

Early levels gnar generally has no HP and catching him with (1) q can really hurt him if you stay on top of him with autos.

Regarding mega.... You just have to trade and if he ever turns into mega gnar with just Botrk or omen he just falls short with out his CC.

Left Hook LarryOct 9, 20153 votes

Gnar is a cancer top.

YumaS2AstralOct 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Thats not 100% true. You should try playing against him. Easiest lane of your life guaranteed.

are also melee champs that do very well vs him. Pretty much any melee champ that has a low cd gap closer can force him into taking losing trades over and over in mini Gnar. Malph is the exception with the passive shield that is going to absorb 80% of his boomerangs while poking back with Q

There is also Yorick . He doesn't have a gap closer, but he has sustain, ranged harass, and damage reduction. Everything needed to combat Gnar.

HorrowOct 8, 20156 votes

As someone who mains Tahm and is closing on on that 100k mark with him, I admit he's not balanced. Honestly, noone should be able to build PURE tank items and still be able to kill who ever you please. Its insane that I can build up to 3k-4k hp with 150-200 Armor/MR and basically take on anyone I want in a fight.

Fight another tank? I auto win. They don't do jackshit to me while I get to chunk them for nearly half their health with one W, then never let them escape due to Q spam.

Against carries? No problem, I can tank their damage, then shatter them because they only have 2kish HP while I deal empowered auto attacks and extra damage from my abilities (roughly 150-200 from ult) to blow them up with while I have the panic button E if they some how kite me long enough to threaten my life.

Kench is sleeper broken, but noone really wants to give him a chance.

NukyancestralOct 8, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Protean Wings,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sxXy9gNO,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-08T18:46:57.774+0000)

Hey riot, if you reealllyyy don't know what you want a champion to be (Jungle, Support, Top) you really shouldn't just random buff them for consecutive patches and then go "Oh wow. How did this happen?"

This is the same as Gnar. People called Gnar awful at release, but I knew, just looking at his kit (Let's face it, gnar's kit is incredibly toxic and cancerous for a top laner "balanced" by the uncontrollable rage mechanic) that he was going to be a huge problem one day. And he got buffed, and people figured how to kinda manage his passive. And then all of a sudden he became the undisputed top lane pick.

Tahm is one of the few single target tanks with no actual aoe cc and easily chunked off with botrk champs, so yeah, no matter how fed u r , u cannot carry games with him, gnar has some sick teamfight potential, but it is potential, if enemies disengage in the right time and turn the last sec its pretty much adc sitting on the front line xd also his laning phase is ridiculiusly bad srsly. Almlst every top laner bullies him in lane, ans unless he hit u with every boomerang, which means u have no reactions what so ever, u should pretty much be able to force him out of lane every one minute

The FastOct 8, 20151 votes

I agree'd with you until you said you can't carry games on him. Tahm is one of the, if not the best, carry tank. Also, thats why you don't play top tahm as much. You play him in the jungle.

NukyancestralOct 9, 20151 votes

His jungle pressure is so bad that he has almost no early game pressure and untill it gets to the point he becomes a true tank, the game might be over. As a top laner, except for the juggernauts, almost every other top laner outplays his kit and just forces him out of lane.

The FastOct 9, 20151 votes

His jungle pressure is bad, but not nonexistent, up until level 6, wherein he becomes one of the biggest threats in the game, gaining significant damage, ganking, and counter-ganking ability. All tahm needs to start taking over the game is a Cinderhulk and level 6. Yes, his team may be behind at that point against early game junglers, but Tahm scales very hard, and as such can make up for his behind lanes, as he works to bring them back up.