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Daily reminder that Karma needs work

Koechophe··17 votes·7,543 views

-Her kit has terrible identity crisis, she's got the Q of a poke mage, the W of a diver, and the E of a support, with an ult that makes each one do that job a little better. -She has no passive; just a boring extension of her ult that doesn't change gameplay whatsoever. -There's no way to build her that optimizes well (she needs CDR, mana and AP, and her W calls for more HP and resistances while her E calls for shield amps). -She's suffering badly since the huge E shield nerfs, sitting at a 47% win rate -Her old mains still miss some thematic elements (shield bombs most specifically) and her new mains struggle with her playstyle. -There's nothing distinctive about her; no unique strengths or potential niches -Riot has refused any comment on Karma for a long, long time.

A dialogue on Karma would be lovely, she was one of my mains before the rework, and afterwards I've tried several times since to grow to love her, but suffer from the identity issues.

14 Comments

OverpoweredSoap6 votes

Her kit in its current iteration is impossible to balance because of her stupid passive. Do you realize how many times she can have mantra up in a mid-late teamfight? She abuses the fuck out of her passive and its the main thing that keeps her afloat as a champion.

Her passive makes her a mess to balance because it means Mantra up is all the time (especially in the support role due to ardent censor as well, which is a role she is NOT healthy as a champion) and her base kit has to be weak as fuck (which ironically, the rework was suppose to fix but didn't) because of her passive giving her Mantra all the time.

Her current identity is a champion that pokes hard early and then turns into a Mantra E bot for the rest of the match because that's all she can do besides moderate damage (in the support role at least, mid karma is also not very health to play against because she is really safe but she has her downsides too).

Karma is not healthy as an "enchanter", she shits out Mantra E throws out her Q and autos just so she can get her mantra up again for another Mantra E.

The rework failed to fix her problem of being dependent on Mantra to be useful to her team (though she is more useful than she was before without Mantra, she's still REALLY dependent on it).

Don't get me wrong, she's **not ** bad, at all, right now. But her kit is a balance mess because Mantra is up all the god damn time and her base kit has to suffer from it unless she has a shit ton of ap.

She really needs to return to her roots of being a battlemage, because her current kit hints at it, but there's just so much god damn power in her Mantra E and her passive that it gets overshadowed by the fact she can pretty much have those two up every 6/7 seconds.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Her kit in its current iteration is impossible to balance because of her stupid passive. Do you realize how many times she can have mantra up in a mid-late teamfight? She abuses the fuck out of her passive and its the main thing that keeps her afloat as a champion.

Her passive is completely broken, but it's buffs are the result of Shield bombs removal. I'd very much like to ask the devs if it was worth it, but like you said she's at 47% W/R... imagine that.

OverpoweredSoap1 votes

{quoted}

Her passive is completely broken, but it's buffs are the result of Shield bombs removal. I'd very much like to ask the devs if it was worth it, but like you said she's at 47% W/R... imagine that.

I mean, her Mantra E is overloaded with a bunch of stuff so the damage could never really be that strong (just there to proc the passive like you're implying). It provides a speed boost, a shield to everyone on the team, the damage was just icing on top, even if they didn't buff the passive it would still be up all the time since its basically the only Mantra she uses most of the time.

She also has a 47% winrate because she's a semi-popular champion that gets picked in 3 different roles and does alright in all of them.

I don't blame the Devs for not talking about her though, her fanbase (me included) get very heated about what they say about her very easily.

That doesn't mean they should stay completely silent on her though.

I wonder what happened to that supposed mini-rework that was proposed for early 2018.

IxtaliKing2 votes

I wouldn't say RE is overloaded at all, it's just her E spread to allies in range. The damage component meant that more consideration had to go into it's use, as opposed to it just being there to proc the passive - she had the shield bomb before that passive. As for the damage itself, it was relatively low in the early game, but was decent mid/late.

Apparently Endless Pillows and Riot August have done some exploration into her that they couldn't comment on just yet. Would just be nice to know that Karma hasn't been forgotten about. The devs shouldn't worried about communicating with Karma players, the fact that Karma mains are passionate about her is all the more reason to talk to us.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Her kit in its current iteration is impossible to balance because of her stupid passive. Do you realize how many times she can have mantra up in a mid-late teamfight? She abuses the fuck out of her passive and its the main thing that keeps her afloat as a champion.

Her passive makes her a mess to balance because it means Mantra up is all the time (especially in the support role due to ardent censor as well, which is a role she is NOT healthy as a champion) and her base kit has to be weak as fuck (which ironically, the rework was suppose to fix but didn't) because of her passive giving her Mantra all the time.

Here current identity is a champion that pokes hard early and then turns into a Mantra E bot for the rest of the match because that's all she can do besides moderate damage (in the support role at least, mid karma is also not very health to play against because she is really safe but she has her downsides too).

Karma is not healthy as an "enchanter", she shits out Mantra E throws out her Q and autos just so she can get her mantra up again for another Mantra E.

The rework failed to fix her problem of being dependent on Mantra to be useful to her team (though she is more useful than she was before without Mantra, she's still REALLY dependent on it).

Don't get me wrong, she's **not ** bad, at all, right now. But her kit is a balance mess because Mantra is up all the god damn time and her base kit has to suffer from it unless she has a shit ton of ap.

She really needs to return to her roots of being a battlemage, because her current kit hints at it, but there's just so much god damn power in her Mantra E and her passive that it gets overshadowed by the fact she can pretty much have those two up every 6/7 seconds.

She abuses the fuck out of Ultimate Hat as well.

She can have it stacked by the 5 minute mark.

SirLapse2 votes

The fact that tank Karma exists is what makes me believe that she has this thing called versatility bro, not "identity crisis." Why do people note that as a negative these days? Because there's a threat of the balance hammer?

I do not like fighting Karma but enjoy having a good one on my team. Generalists that have a good chance of success usually turn out this way regardless. If she were to be balanced (aka forced) into a certain role then she'd need the Q or E to stay with the other leaving, period. But I don't personally believe that's her problem. This meta is quite harsh on squishier champions if the enemy snowballs at all, and Karma is a champion that falls off and becomes an E bot later into the game as overpoweredsoap explained. If she loses a lead for any reason early, her value immensely drops. She is not alone in this. Thresh is also with this issue despite also being an extremely versatile champion.

Bladeleaf2 votes

Karma's Rework put her design wise in a healthy place. She has a unique kit, a unique ult mechanic and I don't think she needs a rework at all. What Karma needs are number tweeks and I can explain why.

I don't think there's any problem with identity in her kit. She's a control mage. She debilitates enemies with CC and boosts her allies with speed ups and shielding. People who take issue with her identity usually want her to lean more on being a poke mage, which she is not.

A quick Legend for those who don't want to google Karma's kit:

Q: Skillshot poke. W: Tether that roots in 2 seconds if not broken. E: Shield + Speed boost. Mantra: Her Ultimate empowers Q, W or E.

  • Mantra - Q: deals has more damage+AoE+Range(Also hits twice)
  • Mantra - W: heals Karma twice if tether isn't broken
  • Mantra - E: shields for more and part of the shield + speed boost goes on allies

Karma's current kit has great synergies, each ability works with her other abilities to pull off several possible combos.

  • You can E to land your W and Mantra Q. Ensuring both hits of Mantra Q land.
  • When you're not focused you can Mantra E your ally, pick up the speed boost in combination with a Q to slow your enemy and land your W. Then Q when the W ends to add 5 seconds of cc, a shield and speed boost.
  • Or if you're a tanky Karma (or maybe just trying to survive the gank) You can Mantra W and use E+Q to stay at the perfect range to land the heal.

These things work great together. Each Mantra choice has a useful combo with strengths and weaknesses. For example when you are alone you don't want to Mantra E. When you are in a teamfight and not being focused you don't want to Mantra W. And Mantra Q is inferior to both in their niche situations.

So far everything's healthy. What's not is Karma's numbers. The reason you feel like she's a bad poke mage is because she has only one ranged ability (like old Nidalee.) That one poke ability does not have enough damage tied into it.

Which is fair, getting Mantra Q'd for half your life is not fun. It's a low CD ult with decent range and AoE. Paired with her speed boost Mantra Q can be hard to dodge.

What needs to change is the second hit on her Mantra Q. Every champion hit by Mantra Q can walk out of it even without boots, but if Karma or her team forces you to stay in with CC or by making you not walk in a straight line, then you deserve to be punished for it. Hard.

The other thing that needs to change is the damage on her W. Maybe also reduce it's casting range (NOT it's tether range) a little to emphasize the All-In nature of using Karma W offensively. Having almost all of Karma's damage baked into her Q is unhealthy. It takes away her dueling potential in bot lane and solo lanes and makes her too vulnerable to mages who out range her. You aren't adequately rewarded for dodging skillshots and going in close. (Against some mages like Syndra you're actually punished for using your W.)

So that's my two cents from a Karma OTP.

Koechophe3 votes

If you'd identify her as a control mage, she's a lousy one imho. She's only got 1 hard cc that requires you to stay in low range of the enemy champ before it kicks in. Her slow is pretty weak as far as cc goes. I'd put her closer to a generalist, which isn't much of an identity, but it's shared by other mages (morg, lux, orianna)

Bladeleaf1 votes

Oriana, Lulu, Lux, Janna all have only 1 hard cc.

Karma has a very low CD slow, root, Low CD speed up.

Control mage is the only thing she fits into.

ZapMyHeart4 votes

{quoted}

Oriana, Lulu, Lux, Janna all have only 1 hard cc.

Karma has a very low CD slow, root, Low CD speed up.

Control mage is the only thing she fits into.

Orianna and Lux are mages that can obliterate you in one combo, so 1 hard CC is all they need. Janna and Lulu both has 2 hard CC + 1 soft. Karma has 1 hard and 1 soft.

Karma is not a control mage. As Rito continually refer to her as part of the Enchanter group and balances her as such.

Also, her control capabilities are limited compared to what the dedicated control mages such as Anivia, Orianna, and partly Taliyah can do.

Verxint1 votes

The way her kit is designed means that she also doesn't really have any weaknesses except for the glaring one of turning into a mantra E bot lategame. During midgame you basically have to accept what she's going to do. She has strong poke, strong catch, and can't be all-in'd. It makes her really obnoxious to deal with and I can't imagine it's fun for Karma players to have such a strange power curve. Since all of her meaningful damage is in Q, unless she gets retarded fed she just doesn't have real AP damage lategame.

FakeGravity1 votes

she have no true remarkable thing, there is nothing about her that feels like "oh thats karma thing" when you play soraka and you save someone across the map with an ult it feels great, when you see janna you know her tornadoes (and her annoying no colddown shield) and braum feels like a defender, karma's kit isnt well focus around anything and the fact that her mantra exists make the rest of it too dependent on it, for support an mantra shield is almost always the right call, for a tank karma mantra W is just the way to go, all else is poke with mantra Q, instead i think she should have two skills focus on damage and one in defense, and her mantra reverse them (shield into damage reflection, Q into healing geiser, W rework all together)

Toxic Diana1 votes

Wait in line bitch. Just because your indian sexualized & underplayed champion is trash tier in ever elo, doesn't mean they deserve a rework immediately. Diana needs a rework for being off meta for exactly 5 years and 9 months now.

Elegant Egoistic1 votes

based on how much trash u got under your reptilic toxic skin, u wont have to worry much since u wont even count to 20 games before getting a guaranteed perma ban

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