Why isn't there an AD equivalent of Morellonomicon yet?

Visigoth·Apr 8, 2015·61 votes·6,317 views

Ever since Executioner's Calling was removed, there is no way to counter sustain monsters without ignite. If you were AP, you can just buy , but if you're AD and you're fighting or or for some reason AP then you need to have ignite or someone else who is AP with Morellonomicon.

Not saying we need executioner's calling back, because it was pretty bad, but it would be pretty handy to get another grievous wounds item for AD champions.

71 Comments

Black Coffee 666Apr 8, 201517 votes

anything stronger than executioners calling would be gamebreaking to adcs because when xin zow jumps on you while slowing with randuins and then giving you free grievous wounds by the time his initial combo is up, you will have no way to kill him or get away.

Old Executioners: Avarice Blade (800g) + Longsword (360g) + 740g = 1900g

+25 attack damage +20% critical strike chance Passive Unique: Your basic attacks inflict Grievous Wounds on enemy champion for 1.5 seconds.

Stronger Executioners that might be balanced????: Bilgewater Cutlass (1400g) + Pickaxe (875g) + 725g = 3000g +50 attack damage +10% life steal Unique Active: Next basic attack inflicts Grievous Wounds on target champion for 3 seconds (60 Second CD). (8 second window)

Pretty good for dueling, making it an active is alot healthier than doing it to literally everyone in a fight.

AmelieApr 8, 20152 votes

It's funny because this is almost EXACTLY what it was in one of its earliest iterations... then they kept changing it and finally removed it from the game... I have NO IDEA WHY. Even if it wasn't picked up often, I built it whenever there was a Mundo/Swain in the game. Ok, that didn't happen often, but it was still necessary sometimes.

TheTyeGuyApr 8, 201512 votes

Awwe. You mean now I need to remember to press ANOTHER button in combat?

Blue Moon WolfApr 9, 20152 votes

you should see how I build supports sometimes :p

item 3222 item 3092 item 3190 item 3512 item 3040 item 3279

TheTyeGuyApr 9, 20151 votes

As a botlane main, pressing buttons is all a support does. But as an ADC, I don't like pressing number buttons.

Teridax68Apr 8, 201513 votes

I think this is sort of the wrong direction: we don't need more Grievous Wounds in the game, we need sustain that can be dealt with organically, i.e. without having to resort to a mechanic that hard-counters healing. A lot of overbearing healing in the game ( DrMundo and Swain 's ultimates, namely) is only allowed to be as strong as it is now because it's expected to work against GW, and if it were healthy on its own, we wouldn't need the mechanic. Soraka is proof that we can have crazy healing in the game and still have interesting and interactive gameplay, so with appropriate tweaks to less individually counterable sustain we wouldn't even need Grievous Wounds at all.

AxlStreamApr 9, 20151 votes

No! Screw the unicorn! Healing in general just annoys me because it's so freaking free and nullifies the point of harassing early.

ajwfApr 9, 20151 votes

"Free" as in costs 5% of Soraka's HP per heal on a champ with literally no health regen. There's nothing free about Soraka's heal but for the ADC who receives it.

NinjaToad99Apr 9, 20153 votes

Actually it costs 10% total HP. 5% in URF, but otherwise 10%.

Sightless66Apr 9, 20154 votes

It actually costs 10%, but who's counting?

NilokApr 9, 20151 votes

more Grievous Wounds

There are less Grievous Wounds than before, it would be nice to have a few counters back in the game. Currently there are only five sources in the game that can apply it, Kat's Death Lotus, MF's Impure Shot, Varus's Hail of Arrows, Morellonomicon, and Ignite.

Two of the sources I remember off the top of my head that use to apply Grievous Wounds was Tristana's old Explosive Shot and Executioner's Calling.

Teridax68Apr 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There are less Grievous Wounds than before, it would be nice to have a few counters back in the game.

It's true that there are less Grievous Wounds in the game, and I think that's a good thing. Ideally, the mechanic should be phased out completely, since it counters healing in a manner that is both excessively harsh and low on gameplay. I think the gameplay behind healing should be "this champion is healing for a lot right now, I should outplay that in this fight", and not "this champion has a lot of healing, I should cut that in half for the rest of the game". Because Mundo or Swain-like healing doesn't really allow for strategy 1 (there's no real way of outplaying their healing on a play-by-play basis), the default so far has been strategy 2, and I think that's something that needs to be fixed.

test accountApr 9, 20151 votes

To be fair, you can wait out Mundo's ult. Or bait it out and disengage, it's not like he has hard CC. Or dogpile him if your team is communicating well, so he goes down before he can ult. That's a form of outplay. If you repeatedly bait out Swain's ult, you'll eventually find yourself with an 8 second window immediately after he just toggled it off. Alternatively, he'll run out of mana eventually -- though getting a good Swain to go oom is much harder. Playing around that cooldown is another form of outplay.

They aren't flashy or LCSBIGPLAYS, but they are forms of outplay that you can take advantage of.

Duke AnaxApr 9, 20151 votes

That's the idea Riot had, improve healing mechanics and eventually get rid of GW.

KingsgraveApr 8, 20158 votes

because the ADs that would build it are almost always tanky and the ones that build the AP version are almost never tanky

CubedJusticeApr 8, 20156 votes

Do you commonly have trouble with Mundo, Swain, and FIddlesticks? They really need nerfs?

Meeks011Apr 9, 20152 votes

yeah omg every game spammed fuck them highest play and win rate I can't 100-0 them at level 1 fast enough Riven

IcyPepperApr 8, 20155 votes

Er, same reason there's no crit stat for AP, or an AD version of rabadon's deathcap (except Zed, I think?).

Not quite sure. Lifesteal is definitely stronger than spellvamp, so I don't think sustain and anti-sustain is supposed to be even for both sides.

WheatloafApr 8, 20155 votes

As far as I know, Riot's still looking for a way to properly remove Grievous Wounds in their entirety. Having heals balanced around the existence of this mechanic hasn't really helped anyone, as anyone that's had to face a Mundo with only a single ignite across the whole team to deal with him would know. The problem with that is that heals would actually have to be nerfed pretty much across the board to compensate, which would throw off balance really hard. A similar situation would arise, actually, if they made Grievous Wounds more accessible. Thus, They're going to be treading very carefully around what they change in regards to it. Nobody actually used Executioner's Calling, so that was pretty much the one safe move they could make.

RenailleApr 8, 20154 votes

Excluding the fact that AP and AD items aren't supposed to be paralleled? Because nobody bought executioners calling. It wasn't slot efficient enough for ADCs, Didn't give the right stats for AD mids or bruisers. The problem with Morellonomicon is that it is stupidly cost efficient and worth getting even without considering the grievous wounds. In order to make an AD Morellonomicon worth using, you'd have to make it so good that it is worth buying even when the other team doesn't have sustain which would make sustain champions unviable.

Hentai MemesApr 8, 20153 votes

An MR item 3075 would also be nice.

Nameless VoiceApr 9, 20152 votes

The counters to high-sustain champions are to burst them down before they can heal, or to be dealing more damage than they are healing each second.

AD carries generally have very high damage output, so they can deal damage faster than a high-sustain champion can heal. An ADC with good items can kill a Mundo or Swain through their ultimates. Many mages have more of a poke-over-time pattern, which makes it much harder for them to deal with high-sustain champions (they just heal up between damage rotations), which is why they have more need of a healing reduction item to counter high sustain.

In any case, Grievous Wounds shouldn't be in the game, and the healing abilities should be adjusted to compensate. It's not healthy for an extremely common summoner spell and a popular items to hard-counter champions with healing, despite the fact that the healing reduction is almost never the reason that you take that spell or buy that item.

slipstreemApr 9, 20152 votes

Have you met a mundo with item 3075 item 3068 ?.... Good luck killing that with any item set and a good support peeling for you before you die.

missinggraveApr 9, 20151 votes

Mundo: item 3068 item 3075 item 3065 item 3111 / item 3047 item 3083 item 3023

I know this is a warwick quote but, "It's only fun when they run!"

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 9, 20152 votes

Rito claimed that grievous wounds can ruin the experience for healing dependant champions, and I would guess that's why they didn't add in a different AD item.

But morellonomicon can be ridiculously OP to the degree there was a meta of buying 2 disregarding the passive.

Totally OK.

I hate morellonomicon, it's supposed to be a niche item yet you can build it on most mages.

DrukyulApr 9, 20152 votes

Replace the active on BotRK with Executioner's passive. Ultimate tank killer item.

AmightyTApr 9, 20152 votes

Sustain champs have always been either real good Vladimir or real bad Aatrox depending on the meta, the only way to make them work long term is to remove heal reducing effects entirely and balance healing from there.

Earl EulrichApr 9, 20151 votes

couldn´t agree more here. 50% reduction is just an silly amount to balance around - either it´s way too weak when the 50%apply, or it´s ridiculously overpowered when they don´t. It just leaves all heavy Sustain in a very binary feast or famine situation by default.

Meep ManApr 9, 20152 votes

They should add a Grievous Wounds passive of some sort to Zeke's Herald so only Supports get it, but it can be applied to allies.

missinggraveApr 9, 20151 votes

That's actually brilliant. Give ZH some loving!

CindikleApr 8, 20151 votes

They need to rework it anyway.

Healing reduction in general needs better options and I don't think it should be actual items.

A flask would make more sense.

PartholonianApr 8, 20155 votes

{quoted}

They need to rework it anyway.

Healing reduction in general needs better options and I don't think it should be actual items.

A flask would make more sense.

Healing reduction should be removed from the game. If you want to stop someone from using a healing spell, silence or stun them. (Or knockup, charm, polymorph, fear, suppress... you get the idea.) Why does one specific type of spell need another counter? Especially one that's built into things that are strong on their own ( summoner 14 item 3165 ) so you get it for free?

DrMundo Swain ults would probably need some nerfs, but that's better than the current binary state of "are they grievous wounded? If yes, they're useless, if no, they're immortal". (And with how common ignite is, well, it's no wonder how frequently they see competitive play.)

I would actually favor indirect nerfs over direct ones, e.g. longer CD for Mundo and heavier mana costs for Swain, so that their ults are still good at what they do, but the opposing team has more opportunity to engage when they're not available. But they might have to do some direct nerf too.

CindikleApr 8, 20152 votes

I can agree with this.

GW comes with a lot of problems.

Kind of feels like they only did it because WoW had it. Never played DotA. But I never heard of them having it.

NymearaApr 9, 20151 votes

Why isn't there an ap equivalent of mercurial scimitar each style has advantages and disadvantages

Only Play DariusApr 9, 20151 votes

item 3165 + item 3068 = Permanent AOE Grievous wounds + item 3075 = A big f*ck you to anyone reliant on lifesteal. + Arcane blade mastery = Grievous wounds on basic attacks. + item 3115 or item 3091 = Grievous wounds on basic attacks.

You've got plenty of options. I'm sure there are others that I haven't listed.

PikmintsApr 9, 20151 votes

I always thought that having an AD item that applied grievous wounds would be a difficult thing to balance. With there being only 3 abilities, 1 item, and 1 summoner spell that applies grievous wounds any more, I do think there needs to be just a little more. I'd like to see grievous wounds not as much of an AD stat, but more of a tank stat. Maybe if an item were added with stats like Frozen Mallet but applied grievous wounds on attack.

Champions that build full tank aren't doing it so that they can get kills, they do it because they know the utility they'd offer by building tank items is better. This helps further that by providing more situational options for builds.

MarshallBanannaApr 9, 20151 votes

you could continue the cycle of 80 AD BFS-built items and make one with grievous wounds.

THE VlLLAlNApr 9, 20151 votes

This would be the worlds largest nerf to Aatrox.

The LovelessApr 9, 20151 votes

This went from 9 to 35 upvotes in 10 minutes!

AuryielApr 9, 20151 votes

Give me all that free sustain you get from lifesteal and sure, have a grievous wounds item

SexyTaylorSwiftApr 9, 20151 votes

The same reason AP champs don't have a version of the most OP item in the game item 3155

iainB85Apr 9, 20151 votes

Why do AD and AP itemization have to be the same? Maybe it'd be more dynamic for the game if they excelled at different things.

Focus TeemoApr 10, 20151 votes

I think most people here haven't played Swain much outside of URF mode(not trying to offend anyone, so please don't take it that way)... his mana costs and farming are already very crippling. His ultimate can't really be left on early, and NEEDS to be strong late. It kinda has the whole 25 INITIAL MANA PER SECOND which increases per second until it literally costs your entire mana bar to keep it on. He itemizes to maximize usage of his sustain in fights, and when hes ignited he's nearly useless. With that said he doesn't really have anything else going for him either, trying to stop him from healing is basically asking Swain to stop being Swain and kill himself. Mundo is bit more of a problem... although currently hes not doing that well(he has one of leagues lower win rates).