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ADCs aren't weak, but I finally understood why people think they are

D357R0Y3R··42 votes·15,435 views

Short answer: no agency, something that everyone knew already and reddit is all over that

but why do they have no agency?

as a Lucian main I would never felt that before, but since Caitlyn buff I tried to play her a couple of time and the result?

https://i.gyazo.com/a48aa653f18783a910c1816c5863381a.png

It's not fun, just not fun all because of mid/jungle 24/7 I'm playing the lane 2v3 or 2v4, fucking camille and nidalee gank lvl 2 and force my flash.

But now you're going to be like "ohoho wait wait a second, this is the same everywhere!"

NO IT FUCKING ISN'T, because you do not play a late game class when you're top/mid (minus few exceptions)

If you want to play caitlyn, or any "hypercarry like adc" it's the same. You just want to farm and get 2 items or 3 items. This is not possible

with jungle/mid, you're never going to be able to farm. Without counting that enemy botlane is also trading, you're just going to lose lane. They nerfed FFW sustain doran's shield sustain hp/5 sustain they nerfed marksmen's base AD resulting in less sustain too So now botlane is like taking Jhin Draven Lucian because it's pointless to try to farm. There is no fucking need to farm when you can put the enemies behind while snowballing. A d4 adc can keep up with a d1 adc right now, because you don't need any farm/push/wave control knowledge to lane. you just go in kill and win no fucking knowledge is needed it's so sad

So are adcs weak? Not really, if they have a competent midlaner/jungler they will have a fun game if they don't they lose

and this is only true for the adc class

https://i.gyazo.com/49d0b3b4d0842072064cdb52972bcc2f.png

Here is me trying to play a champion that doesn't requiere any lane knowledge and carrying harder than I carry on any adc Literally pick morde, and oneshot the jungler in 2v3 witht a support alistar it's so dumb.

Riot game is it possible to talk with you about how you made this game so braindead?

I swear to god your scuttle change didn't fix jungle, they still decide everything. Damage is still an issue, you acted like the president of France with your %%%% armor/mr runes that are x2 less efficient than offense game pacing is dumb laning requieres no skill

game is so stupid right now that I understand why adcs mains think that adcs are weak, with how dumb things are (damage, jungle, shit sustain) there is no way to win unless you pick things like Lucian Draven and say "fuck late game"

95 Comments

Slythion26 votes

I understand what you're saying but holy shit those are some terrible examples haha

Saying Caitlyn lacks agency or lane power and is a hypercarry adc, and then going on to list Mordekaiser as an example of a solo-carry champion that doesn't need a team...maybe I'm crazy but those are some ass-backwards examples

D357R0Y3R6 votes

Saying Caitlyn lacks agency or lane power and is a hypercarry adc

ok hear me out on this: ->they nerfed cait's early game BY SO MUCH she isn't the adc she used to be, her base ad is one of the lowest, she has the shittiest base attack speed, and also THE lowest base health thanks to all riot's changes

->they buffed headshot's damage from 50%+100% crit scaling to 50%-100% (depending on lvls) +200% crit scaling Her headshot can oneshot in late game with a trap

and then going on to list Mordekaiser as an example of a solo-carry champion that doesn't need a team

My bad I'm really sorry, I just took one game as an example so it's terrible in this example I just killed the jungler when he ganked because of morde's insane base damage, but generally I dealt so much damage idk https://i.gyazo.com/7f1f317bd3cdf530a6bfac0865837b7d.png

Mordekaiser might not be able to solo carry, but I felt like I had much more impact than other adcs

I could heal by so much with item 3504 this alone changed so much fights you can't do that with a hypercarry that is behind because of multipile ganks

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

her base ad is one of the lowest, she has the shittiest base attack speed, and also THE lowest base health thanks to all riot's changes

I dont believe you can really compare Morde and Cait i could say by Contrasting them you can see the same design values applied to each

Caitlyns Hp 481- 2119 Mordes Hp 530- 1,934 Caitlyn surpasses Morde at lvl 4.

Caitlyns Base atk Speed .568 +4% Mordes Base atk Speed .601 +2.2%

Caitlyn Surpasses Morde at lvl 5 without items and if Morde is hitting you with AA something has gone horribly wrong.

Caits base AD 58 +2.88 (51 ad @18) Morde base AD 61 + 5(90AD)

Caitlyns use of AA as her most reliable damage source dictates it be Weaker. Morde on the Other hand has Absolutely no built in Reliability with his Damage other Than his Ultimate.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

I dont believe you can really compare Morde and Cait i could say by Contrasting them you can see the same design values applied to each

First of all I'm talking about her base hp in lane

Mordekaiser also has 25% bonus hp through his shield

Caitlyns Base atk Speed .568 +4%

ok so what? her base attack speed is still the lowest amongst all adcs, same for her base ad

in the past Mordekaiser mains lied a lot about their champion, talking about his base hp for instance when his shield is the reason for that , but this isn't going to work on me.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

First of all I'm talking about her base hp in lane

While ignoring her Obvious Range advantage. Sounds like cherry picking

Mordekaiser also has 25% bonus hp through his shield

Also No Mobility, No CC. 325 MS. As a Medium range Mage, he has a Defensive steriod to lessen the effectiveness of Poke which has to be done through gameplay since he gains much More shield vs Champions. Requiring him to get close aka potential for counterplay

ok so what? her base attack speed is still the lowest amongst all adcs, same for her base ad. in the past Mordekaiser mains lied a lot about their champion, talking about his base hp for instance when his shield is the reason for that , but this isn't going to work on me.

The Same applies to Cait. Her Range is the Reason she has weaker base stats.

Cait can still get fed and stomp lategame by overcoming her Damage disadvantage. Other Marksmen will never Overcome thier Range Disadvantage.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

{quoted}

While ignoring her Obvious Range advantage. Sounds like cherry picking

Range doesn't mean anything when you can die in one all in, who the fuck would talk about range here?

the cycle is sustain>all in<poke>sustain

cait having range won't mean anything when one all in of pyke+lucian or pyke+morde means she dies

Also No Mobility, No CC. 325 MS.

I don't care Why is this a discussion about morde? in the first place I compared caitlyn to other adcs then you arrived and put morde in the discussion while also lying about his HP because of his shield

The Same applies to Cait. Her Range is the Reason she has weaker base stats.

OH THANK YOU , and her weaker base stats keep her in check which is what I was saying because people think that due to her range cait is like before, wins lane against everyone but since riot's butchering she can't do that, and they buffed her headshot damage in late game so she becomes a hypercarry

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

Range doesn't mean anything when you can die in one all in, who the fuck would talk about range here?

Someone who is looking at the Entirety of a champions kit before assessing for buffs and Not cherry picking bullshit to support outrageous claims

cait having range won't mean anything when one all in of pyke+lucian or pyke+morde means she dies

Thats dependant on gameplay though isnt it. Ward dont over extend play safe.

I don't care

I can see you just want buffs and don't care about overall game health

Why is this a discussion about morde? in the first place I compared caitlyn to other adcs

You brought him into this Actually.

then you arrived and put morde in the discussion while also lying about his HP because of his shield

Wow an accusation of Lying. Which never happened. your really reaching For a leg to stand on

OH THANK YOU , and her weaker base stats keep her in check which is what I was saying

I dont think that should change by much if at all

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

I dont think that should change by much if at all

I never claimed the opposite, I never said that we should increase cait's base stats If anything I suggested +5 ms to adc AND mordekaiser (and other 325 base ms champions) to nerf junglers

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

I never claimed the opposite, I never said that we should increase cait's base stats If anything I suggested +5 ms to adc AND mordekaiser (and other 325 base ms champions) to nerf junglers

You havent been clear with your suggested changes from what i have read. Althougth i have really been only reading our discussion.

Śhunpo3 votes

At this point Cait may as well be a hypercarry since her rework kinda made her that way, at least with her current ratios and such.

Death by Glamour1 votes

after her mini rework and subsequent nerfs she arguably is a hyper carry, her winrate has always got better the longer a game goes

Rester20 votes

Is there even much of a late game anymore when most games end roughly around 20 mins and you'd be lucky to see 30?

Leetri4 votes

Most games end 25-30 minutes, actually.

Vlada Cut15 votes

Ehh I feel more like a ranged bruiser when I play Lucian. Pew pew, dash, oew, dash, skraaaaa, ace.

AirKingNeo14 votes

item 3020 item 3165 item 3802 [The lack of decent base MR on most champions]

#CAN WE NERF MAGES ALREADY?

Hibeki2 votes

Sorc shoes are just broken 18 magic pen is kinda disgusting, meaning if you pick up that and oblivion orb youre basically doing true damage to anyone who doesnt have an item 1057

3TWarrior2 votes

compared to literal true damage on conquerer and infinity edge and unmissable damage

the damage has basically evened out over the years but when it comes down to it, miss one skillshot as a mage and your damage is lower than a carry's

TomiMan72 votes

whats the difference between 15 magic pen on sorch botos and (atleast) 8 magic pen in OLD runes vs now you have 18 magic pen on sorch boots and 0 in the runes. Get your shit straight, before runes reforged ppl had more flat magic pen with just sorch boots + magic pen marks than what they have now.

Rexxiee8 votes

You basically just said that adcs are worthless because they cant farm, yet the title of the thread is "adc isnt weak"

If adcs cant have impact on the game until 3 items and dont do anything at almost all phases of the game, then that is the definition of weak.

Crit adcs are ASS and they need the old Ie + zeal item spike back so they can play the game again.

D357R0Y3R8 votes

you can farm

if you have a competent jungler that is

Saianna14 votes

They aren't weak, but need too much attention and babysitting and spoonfeeding and defending. Almost like rising your own kid.

Damage-wise they aren't inferior to others (minus obvious examples of few broken duelists), it's the META of "who will cripple ADC first" getting in the way. And by no way should ADCs get buffed, cause knowing Riot they are unable of surgeon precision balancing, they'd shovel buffs, that you'll again see monsters such as jungler-top-mid-tank-assassin-duelist-fighter-halfmage-ADC vayne or jungle-tank-assassin-ADC graves or the like.

Śhunpo3 votes

I guess you just want ADCs to go back to 2 hitting kids? Oh wait....they still do that, it's just that they can't get to that point. I think that's fairly balanced. They're supposed to be a hard carry class which relies on farm, and that's exactly what they are now.

Zéychin7 votes

So, you point out that the enemy team has a jungler and a mid laner and that is why you can't farm.

But your team also has a jungler and a mid laner, which counters your argument.

As it turns out, the better team wins the game. It's not who has a person who can best last-hit minions for 20 minutes in the bot lane. Sometimes your mid laner and jungler outperform the enemy mid laner and jungler. Tough stuff.

monkaS

D357R0Y3R25 votes

{quoted}

But your team also has a jungler and a mid laner, which counters your argument.

thanks so as I said things don't depend on you

LTK KoRo2 votes

What do you propose then? ADCs have to lose something in order to get agency. What it should be?

D357R0Y3R1 votes

-Decrease damage ONCE FOR ALL, do not do changes that are lies like introducing armor/mr runes that are just not efficient -if you don't decrease damage, then increase sustain

you pick one of the two above

then

-reduce jungle presence, scuttle didn't fix anything except making junglers ganking at lvl 2 instead of lvl 3 -if not, then increase adc's base movement speed as well as mordekaiser's and all 325 base ms champions to 330

pick one of the two above once again

Nice! now adcs can farm once again to get items!

ADCs have to lose something in order to get agency

Why exactly do they have to lose something? it makes no sense to make champions strong in late game while taking away their ability to get into late game without their team, what kind of non-sense is that?

You know, adcs aren't the only one who are strong in late game Karthus is THE STRONGEST late game champion in the game yet he gets waveclear soon in the game, and after lvl 6 he can impact the game

Vladimir once again, a champion that is as strong as an adc in late game, but gets sustain in lane and utility with ultimate damage amplification to his team until he gets items

please...

LTK KoRo1 votes

The problem is that ADCs aren't superior lategame because their damage is the highest. ADCs are superior lategame because their damage is most reliable. Karthus can miss his shit. Vlad have to be in the middle of the enemy team to deal relevant damage.

ADCs were a problem in the past because there's no counterplay to their damage. You can't flash autoattacks, dodge autoattacks, you can't "bait" the long CD autoattack, yknow, the 101 of mages counterplay. ADCs back in the days were just the most reliable class to deal safe damage. ADCs aren't like bruisers, they don't need to be out of position to deal damage.

reduce jungle presence, scuttle didn't fix anything except making junglers ganking at lvl 2 instead of lvl 3 -if not, then increase adc's base movement speed as well as mordekaiser's and all 325 base ms champions to 330

this is wrong. ADCs have the best access to the %MS boosts from the zeal items. No other class have such unconditional/permament MS boost. Other classes usually have it tied to actives item 3907 item 2065 item 3800 or conditional passives item 3044 item 3742. Also ADCs can't have base MS on par with other classes due to way how kiting works in league (turn rates pls?). Reducing jungler presence is a better idea, but it might end with junglers have no true powerspike, like in season 2-3. Currently junglers are at their strongest at lvls 2-3, and after that they're getting gradually weaker than other lanes (unless they're snowballing). Removal of said spike might end in junglers changing again into utility bots, which no one really wants to play.

I won't talk about the damage problem of the game, but ADCs cannot be given agency if they aren't going to be reworked to be more than "Ranged autoattack damage". Current ADCs aren't even weak as you said before. They need a power shift, not a straight up buffs. Unless we wan't to end in ADC-centric meta... again.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sk1mZv3v,comment-id=00030000000200000000,timestamp=2018-12-22T11:39:14.774+0000)

The problem is that ADCs aren't superior lategame because their damage is the highest. ADCs are superior lategame because their damage is most reliable. Karthus can miss his shit. Vlad have to be in the middle of the enemy team to deal relevant damage.

Karthus can miss Q, but his E still does 180 damage per second in AOE in late game, an adc with one autoattack deals about 400 damage right now on a single target karthus ult deals so much damage and can't be dodged

I don't know about being "inside a fight" means unreliable, vlad's damage was never unreliable really

Now if we talk about adcs Most of them have windows of power, few adcs have very reliable damage and those adcs are bad design, very very bad designs

let's talk about caitlyn she has the lowest base ad, base attack speed (meaning that buying attack speed is going to be worse on her) her DPS comes from stacking headshots which means it takes time, do you find this reliable?

it's either this, or she mind-fucks enemies with traps, again do you find this reliable? one AA criting on caitlyn is going to deal about 300 damage (counting armor btw), with low attack speed (one hit per second), her Q deals more damage (210+140% total ad) and she needs it in 1v1 but has a delay and can be dodged

then you have like Draven who is SO BAD without axes, making him unreliable because you can throw ccs at his axe locations we think that adcs have no counterplay to their damage, but in reality they have as much reliable damage as other champions

the one who do not, are broken designs that need reworks

LTK KoRo1 votes

Karthus ult channels for like three seconds, is countered by anyone with any kind of being untargetable or spellshield. Also Karthus have to be into the enemy team to use the AoE part of his E decently. If he's staying 500 or units more behind his backline he's not going to accomplish much, unlike the ADCs.

Inside a fight means unreliable, since yknow, people can damage/cc you easily. Is Camille reliable when she jumps into a enemy team? Not really. Same with idk, Darius or whatever.

Well for every unreliable adc there are two reliable abominations, like Tristana or Vayne.

If Riot will rework every Tristana, Vayne, Sivir or Kai'sa into a Cait or Draven then im all in for buffs, agency or whatever.

But pls, i don't want to get melted in 1.5 sec by Trist/Vayne and then be knocked back because i dared to come closer than 400 units and then killed.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

Now we agreed on something, those kind of adcs are bad designs yes

but an adc like draven who needs to do something to deal damage or an adc like cait/ashe who have to stack an ability are not more reliable than karthus/vlad same for ezreal/xayah, and even twitch who is only good one time every 100 seconds

LTK KoRo1 votes

I agree on every adc on this list outside of Twitch, i mean, you're right, but it's not like teamfights happen more than once per 100 seconds, he doesn't really need to be great (he's top notch with his ult) more often.

Anyway, when people are complaining about adcs when it comes to damage (people like me, yknow) we aren't talking about Ashe, Cait, Draven or Ez being unfair. As far as i know most of us don't mind them, unless we're kited to death by IBG Ezreal. We are complaining about ADCs who hyperscale just too hard, or don't have any meaningful weaknesses against melees. Trist is just too good in late, Vayne beats 95% of melees without any counterplay, Sivir scales way too hard, etc.

Hypercarries overall are a bad design imho.

saltran14 votes

{quoted}

So, you point out that the enemy team has a jungler and a mid laner and that is why you can't farm.

But your team also has a jungler and a mid laner, which counters your argument.

As it turns out, the better team wins the game. It's not who has a person who can best last-hit minions for 20 minutes in the bot lane. Sometimes your mid laner and jungler outperform the enemy mid laner and jungler. Tough stuff.

monkaS

I dont understand what agency means and I think I'm funny.

chipndip17 votes

Can we report this guy for dodging his perma-ban?

AirKingNeo8 votes

Dodging permabans isn't against the rules.

Evading Board Bans Do not use alternate accounts to post rule-breaking content if you have an account serving a Boards suspension. Do not post rule-breaking content on behalf of an individual serving a Boards suspension.

If this was an alternate account, he would need to be posting rule breaking content.

Which, by the way, brings up how you plan to prove he's dodging a permaban?

btw pretty petty claim after you lost an argument against him.

Bottom Laner6 votes

On one hand, learning Lucian was kinda fun

On the other hand, there's 140+ champs in this game and I'm only relegated to a single ADC

Śhunpo4 votes

Just don't buff ADCs, they're not "weak". It's just that roles that take advantage of early-mid game are currently quite strong due to the amount of general damage in the game rn. Hit some more peeps with the nerf hammer, don't just buff ADCs and think the problem's fixed.

LemurMonster4 votes

it also doesn't help that poke or burst mages burst you down so fast its stupid. Squishes cant do much this season because of that. They scale too easy I feel honestly. They really are a problem.. Even in other games modes, it shows like in aram, another team is even MORE helpless now vs a team of them. They also need to do something about Ms tits aka MissFortune abusing lethality because I sure dont damn like losing half my heath to a single Q.

ArtumisPrime4 votes

Imagine a world where ADCs don't die in 3 abilities at level 2, and most champions don't have a short CD, long range gap closer.

In that world, they might be able to safely farm with the protection of another champion, and get to the items they need to...provided they have the skill to avoid poke, and hit their CS. Oh, and if they're REALLY good, they can take advantageous trades at opportune moments to put the opposing ADC behind while gaining a small lead which can grow.

What a world that would be.

OtterlyLost3 votes

Its almost as if people who play hyper scaling ADCs have been saying this since 8.11.

Glad you finally decided to actually play someone outside of Lucian and find out for yourself though. :)

Mordepool3 votes

Play Morde( with flash on cooldown) 1v1 vs any Marksmen. Then come back and Dare try to talk to me about agency. Morde has none vs Marksmen The Support wins the lane for Morde. Mordes 3/4 of a champion without one.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

So how is Mordekaiser going to lose 1v1 when his ult deals with liandry like 75% of your max health? Mordekaiser ult + E is going to heavily damage you, and if you take ignite and Aery I'm pretty sure that's a solo kill considering that morde ult procs aery 4 times

And Mordekaiser doesn't need his jungler to win, he does need his support that is true but the support is already here in lane. In this thread am I talking about how an adc needs a competent support to win? no everyone does it mordekaiser also needs a support

but when it comes to comparing an adc and morde, morde doeesn't need a jungler to gank and snowball and put the enemies behind. He also can kill the jungler in 2v3 And in teamfight, if Morde is behind he can heal harder than soraka with his W what can an adc do if he's behind?

yea

Does mordekaiser also have to be scared of assassins when he's trying to farm sidelane to get to late game? I don't think so

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

So how is Mordekaiser going to lose 1v1 when his ult deals with liandry like 75% of your max health?

If thats the scenario Morde ulted enemy ADC with flash down. fine ill tell you how it plays out: Morde disengages. Since he has no ability to do any follow up damage.

The Marksmen has 10 Seconds of Counterplay (8 more than what you get from the majority of the Roster btw) in which they can be shielded or lifesteal thier health back. Stasis even works to negate a portion of it

If Morde chases the adc will kite him to death.

Mordekaiser ult + E is going to heavily damage you, and if you take ignite and Aery I'm pretty sure that's a solo kill

Holy Shit they should invent some sort of Resistance to Magic damage. Some Sort of Magic Resist they could use this icon for it.item 1033 /s

considering that morde ult "CAN"proc aery 4 times

Thats entirely dependant on distance. Therefore has Counterplay disengage aery will most likely proc twice. Are you trying to be misleading on purpose or is it accidental.

And Mordekaiser doesn't need his jungler to win,

He may need jungle assistance but thats entirely dependant on Matchup. Which im sure is the same for all Marksmen

he does need his support that is true but the support is already here in lane.

Bard not always true

morde can 2v3 the enemy jungler

So can any marksmen since thats Entirely based on Gameplay. Honestly that only happens if the jungler misplays.

And in teamfight, if Morde is behind he can heal harder than soraka with his W

Entirely based off positioning for a champion with the worst target access

what can an adc do if he's behind?

Poke out a Morde thats behind

Does mordekaiser also have to be scared of assassins when he's trying to farm sidelane to get to late game? I don't think so

Yes actually. Morde can Lane vs Assasins because he can use the threat of the turret to force short trades which Morde wins due to the heal. But out in the Open Morde is dependant on Minions to cast W effectively.

HEALTH FOUNTAIN2 votes

what is an agency

Cats Are Food3 votes

Presence. Existing for longer than 0.28 seconds to actually dish out damage, which is hard when assassination happens instantly.

Reaper Claws2 votes

Bot lane has way too much importance in the game. I am not sure how this can be done, but if we can equalize the pressure on all lanes than we may see less early ganks and 5 man fights occurring down bot lane.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Pretty sure they don’t even make balanced breakfasts

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Falls down into two core problems:

A.) ADCs are the only class that has been forced into the "late game" slot. B.) Most Bot Players are just ADC players.

Both problems fall on Riot imo, although it's overall less of a balance problem and more of a design problem.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

ADCs are the only class that has been forced into the "late game" slot

I don't think this is bad, traditionally in Dota1 like games carries always requiered a good macro to farm, farm better than the enemy and become better. Making adcs no longer late game would remove that

The problem is that adcs when broken, used to have an insane early game AND late game, and hear me out on this, as well as high sustain but riot nerfed both the early game (base stats) and the sustain, you're now both weaker in early game and have less survivability.

Why didn't they just do one of the two? I wish they did because I don't understand what you're supposed to do except hope that your jungler ganks bot.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

I think it's a problem because unlike DOTA (and every other class in the game) ADCs are the only ones relegated to that status. As an example, if I want to play an early game ranged bully in DOTA, there are a few of those. Not an overwhelming amount, mind you, but enough to sate my desire to play an early game ranged hero.

In League, there really aren't any save for Draven or Lucian. Caitlyn used to be THE lane bully until she got some early power taken in exchange for late game power. Even then, these champions are almost forced to be strictly bot laners. Part of this is also players. Few weeks back I had a discussion about why we need to open up bot lane and I was flat out told by players "I don't want to be a botlane player, I want to be an ADC player".

It's gotten so bad that ADCs want special exemption from something every other role has to do (Learn other champion classes) and Riot is more than willing to accommodate them in most situations.

meowwow72 votes

i agree on most points, but you say adcs don't need farm/push/wave control knowledge to lane and then complained about getting ganked lvl 2 by the camile/nid making you burn flash

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