Grievous wounds is NOT a healthy mechanic.

MealReadytoEat·Oct 30, 2015·36 votes·3,097 views

Grievous wounds means that healing overall needs to be over-the-top to make up for the fact that it is easily halved.

Healing would be in a much better state overall if it was simply reduced, say to 2/3 of what it currently is, and Grievous Wounds removed.

Edit - I should point out that I was prompted to write this as on PBE right now executioner's calling is back in, as an 800 gold item that combines with last whisper for a great lategame item that most ADC's will get. It applies grievous wounds for 5 seconds on ALL physical damage.

50 Comments

BleedissOct 30, 201517 votes

you're joking right

grievous wounds is necessary for stupidly high healing spells and items

you can't just reduce the healing power without making the healing useless

A Miss FortuneOct 30, 20157 votes

Champions like Mundo and Vladimir completely revolve around sustain, if you buy something like a 5 second Grevious Wounds against them, their kit is so bad It's unreal. You can easily outduel any sustain champion with it regardless of how fed they are unless they're legit able to blow you up in 2 - 3 abilities. I mean Vladimir is absolute cancer but still It's kind of stupid when he's hypercarrying but loses to the 0-20 Yi simply because he can invalidate Vladimir's sustain.

BleedissOct 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sh46AEq2,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-10-30T13:04:14.655+0000)

Champions like Mundo and Vladimir completely revolve around sustain, if you buy something like a 5 second Grevious Wounds against them, their kit is so bad It's unreal. You can easily outduel any sustain champion with it regardless of how fed they are unless they're legit able to blow you up in 2 - 3 abilities. I mean Vladimir is absolute cancer but still It's kind of stupid when he's hypercarrying but loses to the 0-20 Yi simply because he can invalidate Vladimir's sustain.

their kit isn't 'so bad it's unreal.'

an advantage they have over other champions gets reduced drastically, yes, but vladimir is still the same teamfighting mage who nukes people with his low CD spells and high damage ultimate, dr. mundo is still the same 5k+ health tank who runs into a teamfight not giving any shits about what you're doing to him as his one job is to make the ADC/APC's life a hell of a lot harder

and i wouldn't be saying you can easily outduel any sustain champion

because in no world is a vladimir going to be losing against a 0-20 yi, especially when yi has absolutely no way to stop vladimir's absurd amount of healing power and damage, seriously, no way

ashebergersOct 13, 20162 votes

That "Advantage" comes at a cost of not having other advantages YOU have! Like extreme mobility, insanely insta kill damage, ultra tankiness (Alistar for example), True damage, ect/ect/ect.

If Aatrox/Mundo/Vlad/Swain ect are all so OP and have such an "Advantage" why does no one ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever play them?

You see them once in a blue moon, grevious wounds needs removed.

BleedissOct 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That "Advantage" comes at a cost of not having other advantages YOU have! Like extreme mobility, insanely insta kill damage, ultra tankiness (Alistar for example), True damage, ect/ect/ect.

If Aatrox/Mundo/Vlad/Swain ect are all so OP and have such an "Advantage" why does no one ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever play them?

You see them once in a blue moon, grevious wounds needs removed.

You may want to look at the post dates before yours.

ashebergersOct 13, 20162 votes

Yeah that stupidly high vlad heal, on a 5 sec cd, sure it will save him vs 5 people that kill him in 0.5-2 seconds.

Healing is fine, sorakas heal cd needs doubled and thats all, then grevious wound completely removed.

kJsOct 30, 20154 votes

I think they should have bumped up the price from 800 to 1300 considering how severe 50% healing reduction in healing can be. Or easily make it a stack system where: 1 attack/spell = 5% healing reduction (can stack up to 10 times). or 1 attack/spell = 10% healing reduction (can stack up to 5 times). ~~Bleed~~ Damage over time effects count as multiple attacks/spells.

LostSoul666Oct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think they should have bumped up the price from 800 to 1300 considering how severe 50% healing reduction in healing can be. Or easily make it a stack system where: 1 attack/spell = 5% healing reduction (can stack up to 10 times). or 1 attack/spell = 10% healing reduction (can stack up to 5 times). Bleed effects count as multiple attacks/spells.

Darius approves this message

Karn BishopOct 30, 20153 votes

Correction as a mechanic its unhealthy to have it on most champion kits, as an item slot though it is fine as you are losing out on other build options for one slot the moment you build it.

lets also look at it a different way if the mechanic did not exist at all then high hp regen healer champions and items also could not exist or would need to be dumpstered to avoid unkillableness.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20151 votes

On PBE, you can get it a 800 gold item (exectuoniers calling) that combines with last whisper for great slot efficiency.

WoonStruckOct 17, 20161 votes

What you say might apply if the items providing that utility weren't obscenely strong and almost must-buy themselves

item 3033 item 3165

AezanthyaOct 30, 20153 votes

They introduced this new cancerous item because ADC get free heal from every item and masteries. So they made an ADC item to counter ADC screwing every TRUE healers.

Classic Riot - balance the game around ADCs and ADCs only.

AmelieOct 30, 20153 votes

Grievous Wounds is now 40%, not 50%
It is absolutely necessary to have in the game vs heavy healers or people who build ridiculous lifesteal, otherwise they are literally impossible to kill unless you built the perfect team composition that can burst them. Infinite healing is not a healthy mechanic.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20151 votes

Which is why I said healing should be reduceded, rather than relying on grievous wounds for balance

Silents429Oct 31, 20152 votes

And why would it be better to make healing worthless?

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20151 votes

It wouldn't be worthless... I'm saying that having healing balanced around everyone getting grievous wounds requires healing to be numerically too strong.

Silents429Oct 31, 20152 votes

It's not being balanced around grievous wounds, grievous wounds is being balanced around the healing.

Deadly QuillsOct 30, 20152 votes

Enter Aatrox, enter Mundo, enter Irelia, enter Soraka

HaIlMonitorOct 30, 201510 votes

Do you not see what he is saying? Part of the reason those champions have to have so much healing is because of GW

Karn BishopOct 30, 20151 votes

Honestly your not the one to get it. everything has to have counter balance in some way shape or form, it also restricts build paths by itemizing against one healer vs the rest of the team.

xFrostKnightxOct 30, 20152 votes

Let me just reduce your damage to me by 20% with phantom dancer, also reduce your healing by 50% and while I'm at it, I'll Pen your bonus Armour and bleed you for bonus Ad damage while I walk around with 30% Life steal from only 3 Items. CORE items. It's still good because I have 2 slots left and 200Ad with 40% crit and 90% attack speed.

Now because of how accessible Grievous is, I want buffs to champion's who can heal to compensate for the permanent -50% healing received by mid game to the people I have to heal.

Why is Soraka even paying 10% flat total HP for a heal if it's going to be reduced to 50%? 240 + 60% ap Heal.
A proper Soraka build can get 200ap - 300ap if they go a little more ap and keep all the good support items (but you wont be hitting 300AP with the new Mastery tree). So that's 360/420hp Heal thats reduced to 180/210hp Heal

180-210 Hp Heal for 10% of sorakas HP + mana
That's less that the base heal currently before the Grievous wound Meta comes in to counter all the life steal they gave in the ADC patch.

2Charmnot2CharmOct 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Do you not see what he is saying? Part of the reason those champions have to have so much healing is because of GW

If they didn't have so much healing than their healing will be damn useless to the point we wouldnt need grievous wounds.

TheXtractorOct 30, 20152 votes

Its an amazing mechanic. Its great to counter specific heal heavy champs or comps. Also L2Barrier instead of Heal. its good to see things that stop people from just going heal always, its boring.

DehornOct 30, 20152 votes

grievous wounds should be on a niche item, not the core item every apc buys first.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20151 votes

They are adding it as part one of the two upgrades of the new last whisper

DehornOct 30, 20151 votes

good. it should always be an option. you should be able to strategically buy it when you need it. currently thats not the case. item 3165 is the staple apc item. its built almost 100% of the time. mainly because its a great item even without grievous wounds. its an overloaded item and grievous woulds should be removed and just like last whisper, be made an upgrade option.

Zorae42Oct 30, 20151 votes

Psh. Unless the other team has serious sustain, item 3174 every time. The higher mp5is is worth it for really mana hungry champs.

Cenobite AzazielOct 30, 20152 votes

Riot: 1 year ago - grivoues wounds is awful. RNG is awful. Ghostcrawler comes in : YAY, grievous wounds just to dump on some especific champion taht heal over time and crit everywhere.

DivewingOct 30, 20151 votes

Honestly I think healing was unhealthy to begin with, but I'm pretty sure that's all biased opinion

charcharmunroOct 30, 20151 votes

I always wondered why items that apply Grievous Wounds didn't have a progressive effect the lower the health of the target. Like... It's only Grievous Wounds below 30-40% health. Before that, it's Rather Moderate But Not QUITE Grievous Wounds, which only lowers healing by a third, or something.

FeathermaneOct 30, 20151 votes

This applies equally well to armor shred, mr pen, slows etc. Not a great argument in my book.

Awkward CouchOct 30, 20151 votes

From what I can tell, grievous wounds is meant for high health targets. Take someone like Malphite for example. He (if building straight tank) has a lot of health not to mention that shield. The best way to cut through that health is to get him below 40% HP and then burst him with grievous wounds. Without GW it would be harder to kill front line tanks. Not to mention it has a similar passive to ignite, which is good for burst mages.

If you want to talk about unhealthy gameplay I'd much rather see crit removed from the game, but this is not the discussion for that.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20151 votes

Your 40% target is a good point, that's how Morrelo's works, but not the new executioner's calling.

Awkward CouchOct 30, 20151 votes

I can't find a description of the new executioner's calling. Would you mind posting a link if you have the time?

CyberDeath1337Oct 30, 20151 votes

Wouldn't that be it's point?

Widder88Oct 30, 20151 votes

Healing is toxic.

BlastermineOct 30, 20151 votes

Guys, In WoW they removed Mortal Strike debuff and simply reduced healing in PVP by like 20% years ago. In fact they cited the exact same reasoning on why Mortal strike was unhealthy for the game.

But as usual, Riot's arrogance prevents them from learning from others mistakes.

DeynaTaggerungOct 30, 20151 votes

And right has said this quite a number of times, along with that they're trying to mostly phase it out, or save it for one special use case(ignite)

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20151 votes

Which is why they added to an item most ADC's will get mid to late game...

DeynaTaggerungOct 30, 20151 votes

Ah I haven't tracked all the item changes they're going to make(especially because it's not final), and I don't think everyone knows that, so you might want to edit it into your post.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 30, 20151 votes

I totally agree, and I thought Riot has said before they were planning to remove that mechanic. I am sad that they haven't. It would improve things immensely.

KaisadiIIaOct 30, 20151 votes

halved.

forty-percented*

doiminat0r3600Oct 30, 20151 votes

Volibear passive literally heals him like a mundo ult but its automatic and costs no mana. He would be unkillable and be able to do high amounts of physical and magic damage if he cant be killed. GW is a must.

MealReadytoEatOct 30, 20152 votes

Or they could just reduce the passive a bit, to make up for the fact that it won't be reduced everytime he uses it, which is my main point.

NekusenOct 30, 20151 votes

nor are the champs it counters

ashebergersOct 13, 20161 votes

Healing is already god damn fine, it doesn't need reduced at all as then it would just be like having grevious wounds on you ALL THE TIME.

People die in this game in like 0.5-3 seconds, healing is god damn fine.

Just remove grevious wounds period, no compensations as they not needed.

KallianOct 17, 20161 votes

if the enemy team has a raka or sona, its pretty hard to deal with that in lane and in team fights as an ADC

RequiemsfireOct 17, 20161 votes

This is why Morello didn't believe that a pure healer should exist in league, because he knew that numbers would have to be balanced around the fact that a champion like Soraka or Mundo exist, it leads to various issues such as damage creep, mechanics like grievous wounds and effectively controls the state of items that revolve primarily around health regen and sustain.