Please buff Nasus's defense, not his damage

Moody P·Dec 12, 2018·56 votes·15,476 views

I have never felt like I was not doing enough damage if I stacked correctly and played well on Nasus, even in a more difficult lane. I constantly feel like no matter how defense-oriented my build is I get vanished as soon as I walk within 20 feet of more than 2 enemy champions. I'm really concerned that this is only going to push him back up to shit-stomping Silver players without actually addressing his issues in regards to higher ranked play. Namely, that he vanishes as soon as he walks within 20 feet of more than 2 enemy champions.

Could you, instead, trade these buffs and maybe even the 50% Q refund for ult giving him % damage reduction, or at least letting his ult's resists cap sooner so he can actually enjoy the full buff for a bit? You could even make it rank-dependent, so while an early game Nasus would have to wait a bit for his maximum, at level 16 it would be fully-charged much sooner since teamfights late game are very short and he can't afford to wait.

Also, (as a Nasus player), please nerf the perma-Wither and give him fair compensation elsewhere. His 100% uptime on crippling people with enough CDR is the sole reason you can't let him actually be good at doing anything. Thank you.

77 Comments

Irelia BotDec 12, 201816 votes

Everyone feels like they die instantly building tank except an ulting Alistar.

That is a problem with the game.

BlytedDec 12, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-12T02:00:37.044+0000)

Everyone feels like they die instantly building tank except an ulting Alistar.

That is a problem with the game.

1,000 times this ^

The novelty of tons of damage has worn off I am ready for the game to bring back some of the strategic elements from previous seasons.

Moody PDec 12, 20182 votes

Tanks have shields and % damage reduction to fall back on most of the time; divers get mobility and fancy tools to reduce damage they shouldn't be getting hit with anyway. Everyone else is supposed to be squishy. Most champions have hard CC to allow them to live longer if they don't already have dashes, some have both.

Juggernauts are almost entirely reliant on stats to survive in a meta where stats don't cut it anymore. Add this on top of the fact they have the weakest disables as a class except for assassins and they don't even have CC to artificially extend their lifebars.

Irelia BotDec 12, 20181 votes

Spiting fighters into 2 categories was also pointless and made riot focus more on champion classification instead of individual champion traits.

So many are fixated on is the "champ class" doing well and not individual champions.

Moody PDec 12, 20181 votes

fighters should be designed far more defensively than they are to begin with. dota2's equivalents go far harder into defense than offensive in their abilities and they don't have near as many issues with disappearing from viability. great defense innates, debuffs, you know, shit that actually keeps them alive to do their damage

So many are fixated on is the "champ class" doing well and not individual champions.

i think it's valid for juggs (and enchanters) since anyone that isn't nasus or urgot is mid-tier at best atm but on the other hand juggernauts have the unfortunate issue of being like 80% old as bones champions

zPityDec 12, 20181 votes

i think it's valid for juggs (and enchanters) since anyone that isn't nasus or urgot is mid-tier at best atm but on the other hand juggernauts have the unfortunate issue of being like 80% old as bones champions

I think this point has merit! We can argue stats and variables but the big issue is we have a group of champions that do not have the "skill caps" or champion flexibility as the more recent.

BlytedDec 12, 201815 votes

I disagree.

Buffing his defense is pointless because he can never be allowed to be an actual tank. If Nasus was an actual tank he would be beyond broken.

Logic dictates that buffing his offense is the healthier option.

The buff being tested on the PBE will provide noticeable strength to Nasus' mid game and that is when he is strongest.

Moody PDec 12, 201816 votes

Being able to not die instantly on a full durability build is kind of the point of what Nasus is.

BlytedDec 12, 20186 votes

Nasus is a Juggernaut. Juggernauts aren't meant to have tank level durability (Garen I'm looking at you). The Juggernaut class is meant to do good damage if they can manage to get on top of a priority target (ignore the abomination that is Skarner).

A well farmed Nasus will almost auto win a 1v2 mid game (depending on the match up)

If the PBE buff goes live the Krug camp alone will be worth almost 40 stacks. 40 stacks. If you get Krugs and a scuttle you will be halfway to 100 stacks. Think about that.

Moody PDec 12, 201821 votes

Juggernauts aren't meant to have tank level durability (Garen I'm looking at you)

Yes they are. The entire point of juggernauts is being durable with damage provided they can get in range to do their damage. If they aren't durable then there's no point to playing them.

If the PBE buff goes live the Krug camp alone will be worth almost 40 stacks. 40 stacks. If you get Krugs and a scuttle you will be halfway to 100 stacks. Think about that.

That's why this buff is terrible. Nobody needs to be bothered with this stupidity.

BlytedDec 12, 20181 votes

[deleted]

BlytedDec 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Current Juggernauts: Aatrox Garen Shyvana Nasus Mordekaiser Urgot Illaoi Darius Trundle Yorick Udyr? Dr. Mundo Voli

None of them have the easy access to burst/sustained damage that Nasus has. Nasus is not a tank. Nasus will never be a tank. The reason that this will not happen is obvious. They could replace his slow with something else and there would still be no way to make Nasus a healthy tank.

Wrong. Damage is the current state of the game. Game times are condensed and this change provides Nasus players a chance to reach the same mid game point that they could when average game times were longer.

Moody PDec 12, 20187 votes

What? Almost all of them have far easier access to their conditions than Nasus does, with the exception of Illaoi. Most of them do not rely on high CS to unlock their full potential; they get it regardless by fulfilling a condition or just by hitting you with buttons.

Nasus is not a tank

<Removed by Moderation> Tanky =/= a tank. Surviving long enough to do your job =/= making you a tank. Play another game. Go play DOTA and look at how insanely tanky their juggernaut equivalents like Bristleback can get and then come here and look at LOL juggernauts and realize that they're trash by comparison

Giving Nasus more damage doesn't solve anything. In higher levels of play he'll still get kited and do absolutely nothing while the enemy team laughs at him; if anything this buff just makes it more likely he'll be permacamped and denied CS to begin with

dome025Dec 12, 20183 votes

<Removed>

Could you stop rank shaming? I know it´s hard for you to understand (from reading some previous posts of you) but your opinion isn´t worth more than any of the other players just cause you´re high elo nor does low elo mean that the low elo player can´t be right about a subject (there are so many various factors why someone could be low elo).

Elo is relative, everyone could have full knowledge of the game and yet someone has to be low elo for high elo to exist. Differences would occur then in other skills (playing under pressure, social skills, last hitting skills, etc). (this one is purely hypothetical and for illustration purposes).

Universal Rules Gameplay & Rank Shaming No belittling or shaming a player for their champion pool, rank, playstyle, or match history.

That being said. You´re right that juggernauts are supposed to be durable and deal a lot of damage if they manage to get on their target. However I would say he rather needs a rework (cause stat check) + overall damage needs to be tuned down. Which will indirectly buff his tankyness.

Moody PDec 12, 20181 votes

My opinion isn't worth more but it's less wrong. I'm really tired of constantly trying to discuss my dissatisfaction with Juggernauts and then having to spend the rest of the thread explaining what a Juggernaut is to people (who are all low elo and will usually reason that tanky should equal not doing damage or that a juggernaut IS a tank) instead of actually discussing the fucking topic at hand

Stat checking is not an issue. Nasus's problem stems from the fact that he's basically balanced around Wither being permanent if he wants it to be. Make Wither a tighter windowed spell with reasonable downtime for you to fight back in, and instantly everything else in Nasus's kit can be retuned and he becomes 10x healthier for all ranks

dome025Dec 13, 20181 votes

Stat checking is not an issue.

It´s an issue because it neither allows the opponent to outplay the stat check nor the stat check to outplay the opponent. Which can be frustrating because if you play perfect it won´t matter cause you lost stat wise.

Let´s look at Illaoi for example. Someone being close to her doesn´t guarantee her a free trade/kill but it gives her a major advantage where she is supposed to have one. The result of it is up to how good Illaoi and her opponent play. Does Illaoi play around her vessel and tentacles/ does her opponent play around it too?

Now if an opponent is close to Nasus, well either Nasus wins because he has enough stacks + tankyness or Nasus loses (or the opponent escape because he has a dash or any other good mobility).

Nasus can´t miss his Q, he is either in range for it or not, same for his w. His e is so large it´s hard to miss and in such situations "only" nice to have for arm pen + extra magic damage but not necessary if you have a good amount of stacks. And his ult is jus there to boost his tankyness so he survives while he tries to close the gap (the extra damage is also nice to have but not important).

Now not everyone needs as much potential for outplay like Illaoi or Zed or whatever champion. But every champion should have a minimum of counterplay. Be it like WW whose major counterplay it is just to dodge his ult.

And both non stat check and stat check kits can be toxic. It´s always up to how good they were designed.

ModJikkerDec 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T03:03:11.965+0000)

What? Almost all of them have far easier access to their conditions than Nasus does, with the exception of Illaoi. Most of them do not rely on high CS to unlock their full potential; they get it regardless by fulfilling a condition or just by hitting you with buttons.

<Removed by Moderation> Tanky =/= a tank. Surviving long enough to do your job =/= making you a tank. Play another game. Go play DOTA and look at how insanely tanky their juggernaut equivalents like Bristleback can get and then come here and look at LOL juggernauts and realize that they're trash by comparison

Giving Nasus more damage doesn't solve anything. In higher levels of play he'll still get kited and do absolutely nothing while the enemy team laughs at him; if anything this buff just makes it more likely he'll be permacamped and denied CS to begin with

Hey,

Just removed an unnecessary rank shaming comment. Leave rank out of these types of discussions please!

[poppy-wink]

Iota ThetaDec 12, 20185 votes

There’s a difference between Tank and tanky. Moody P wants the second for Nasus, the quality of being durable and having high defenses. Having that won’t make Nasus a tank, it’ll help him live long enough to fulfill his Juggernaut role. Juggernauts are the tankiest damage dealers.

Hexs FortuneDec 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-12-12T04:11:22.742+0000)

There’s a difference between Tank and tanky. Moody P wants the second for Nasus, the quality of being durable and having high defenses. Having that won’t make Nasus a tank, it’ll help him live long enough to fulfill his Juggernaut role. Juggernauts are the tankiest damage dealers.

They are supposed to be on paper, but I don't see a difference in durability between Juggernauts and Divers when both get equally blown up in team fights.

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T02:13:08.973+0000)

Yes they are. The entire point of juggernauts is being durable with damage provided they can get in range to do their damage. If they aren't durable then there's no point to playing them.

That doesnt work tho, makes them too similar to tanks.

I mean, any one of them can easily build deadman and run down the average squishy so at some point capclosing isnt much of an issue, and if the enemy backline has so much peel they can easily prevent a juggernaut with tenacity+deadman then most tanks cant get in either.

So what is the difference? CC? But tanks cant have too much CC because no one likes being chainstunned to death in a 1v1.

Tahm proves that well enough.

So the only difference is durability, tanks have to have the most of it or they wont have a identity.

If i had to buff nasus somehow i´d probably buff his ult, preferably in some way that helps him better fight multiple opponents without making his 1v1 any stronger.... if at all possible.

Moody PDec 12, 20187 votes

That doesnt work tho, makes them too similar to tanks.

2 things; fundamentally they serve different roles. Think of it this way; a tank gets tanky to keep his team alive - he wants to take damage, because that's a win for him. A juggernaut gets tanky to keep himself alive - he doesn't want to take damage, but he has no choice. Second, the only juggernauts that ever manage to get into pro play, bar Mordekaiser/Trox, are the ones who are 'as tanky as tanks.' Olaf runs full tank builds, Urgot is/was god-mode unkillable with Stoneplate executions, and Dr. Mundo is self explanatory, Trundle is self explanatory.

DMP doesn't prevent kiting; it's more of a map-covering item than a run at people one. Righteous Glory is much better for closing a gap quickly.

Juggernauts as a class need to trade some of their absurd damage for more useful things like survival tools to _do _ that damage and team-helping tools like buffing allies - something that could actually justify wanting to pick them in high elo to begin with, since there's only so many variations you can do on 'I can't move but I do lots of damage' before champions just start overlapping each other.

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-12-12T11:57:26.913+0000)

2 things; fundamentally they serve different roles. Think of it this way; a tank gets tanky to keep his team alive - he wants to take damage, because that's a win for him. A juggernaut gets tanky to keep himself alive - he doesn't want to take damage, but he has no choice. Second, the only juggernauts that ever manage to get into pro play, bar Mordekaiser/Trox, are the ones who are 'as tanky as tanks.' Olaf runs full tank builds, Urgot is/was god-mode unkillable with Stoneplate executions, and Dr. Mundo is self explanatory, Trundle is self explanatory.

Juggernauts.....i mean the only ones are Aatrox, Darius, Mundo, Garen, Illaoi, Morde, Shyv, Trundle, Udyr, Urgot, volibear and yorick.

And out of them i dont really recall Nasus,udyr, Shyv, Illaoi or Garen being played in pro more than once or twice here and there, the others have all made appearances more frequently.

So....most juggernauts have and even do see play pretty frequently? And even if they dont see pro play they still see high elo play.

The ones that dont tend to have issue´s with their kits, like Udyr and Nasus, that prevent them from working well higher up.

DMP doesn't prevent kiting; it's more of a map-covering item than a run at people one. Righteous Glory is much better for closing a gap quickly.

Well pardon me, only melee i really play anymore is Shyv and deadman is an item i often use if people are a bit too good at running away....well some vi but i dont use many such items on her.

But it makes my point at any rate, juggernauts have gapcloser methods even if not as powerful as vi/jarvan/malp ulting in while unstoppable....or camilie from a massive distance going untargetable at a opportune moment.

Juggernauts as a class need to trade some of their absurd damage for more useful things like survival tools to _do _ that damage and team-helping tools like buffing allies - something that could actually justify wanting to pick them in high elo to begin with, since there's only so many variations you can do on 'I can't move but I do lots of damage' before champions just start overlapping each other.

Again the issue with this is that if they get too tanky then they are too similar with tanks, and right now tanks are barely any tankier than juggernauts.......like half that power comes from runes like aftershock+ items like stoneplate.

So i really wish to ask again, with tanks like seju having had their CC quite gutted, whats the difference between them and and juggernauts?

Seju doesnt have any strong AOE CC anymore, doesnt have a powerful gapcloser, doesnt even have a great or at least reliable innate tankiness.

In what way is she better than say Darius or Aftershock Aatrox using item 3800 to run someone down and smack them to death with powerful CC and damage? '

Already tanks overlap really badly with juggernauts or even just other melee in effectiveness, particularly those that can use aftershock and stoneplate or have a powerful survival thing like aatrox ult really feel like they can replace tanks without much issue.

Moody PDec 12, 20181 votes

So....most juggernauts have and even do see play pretty frequently?

Most juggernauts do see pro play in the right circumstance. Even Illaoi became a top tier pick in response to S8 preseason's tank meta in top lane because she was a hard counter to Ornn and Maokai. That's not the point; the point is that juggernauts need so much more to go right for them right now to even justify being picked. They need enough tanks in meta that the odds of being dogpiled and nuked are low, they need lots of people in melee range, and then they need whatever their specific win condition is to be fulfilled.

I want juggernauts to not rely on just abusing the piss out of whatever else is in the meta to be meta themselves. Even the new designs, Urgot and Aatrox, are entirely reliant on this; as soon as the game shifts the slightest bit away from favoring them, they're going to vanish completely for the next top 2 juggernauts that fit the new meta better despite offering most/all of the same general strengths. I want them to be good on their own merits, and not good just for the value of being a counterpick.

So i really wish to ask again, with tanks like seju having had their CC quite gutted, whats the difference between them and and juggernauts?

Riot fucking up every tank design since Sion isn't really my problem. They've had their shit all over the place for years and fixing it would require changes so far beyond the scope of what anyone would actually want that it'll never happen.

That said. Sejuani still has impressive single-target lockdown and disruption, and potent synergy with melee allies who can stack for her - and then she gives back by stunning their target to prevent being disengaged. Darius cannot start a fight or make a pick nearly as well as Sejuani who can initiate on you from well over a screen away with Q+R. Darius can respond to being initiated on much better than Sejuani, though, because he has an immediate answer to gapclosing tanks with his hook and the threat of his passive going off to let him carry the fight.

Utility doesn't have to be CC. What I want are other things - debuffs, and buffs for teammates, auras - shit that makes for a competent strategy game and gives my teammates a reason to actually play around me. And yeah, tanks should have that stuff, too. But their general end goal should be different; a tank wants to apply CC and keep aggro. A juggernaut wants to do damage and avoid aggro long enough to punish you for not aggroing.

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T17:33:11.006+0000)

Most juggernauts do see pro play in the right circumstance.

Goes for every champ class/subclass out there.

Juggernauts only happen to be noted absent more because their success conditions are too similar and too narrow compared to say most of the mage groups or the support tanks.

Marksmen have internal groups that rotate around fast enough that at least 1 is always viable.....Like the onhit, early game bullies and the hyperscaling ones.

I want juggernauts to not rely on just abusing the piss out of whatever else is in the meta to be meta themselves. Even the new designs, Urgot and Aatrox, are entirely reliant on this; as soon as the game shifts the slightest bit away from favoring them, they're going to vanish completely for the next top 2 juggernauts that fit the new meta better despite offering most/all of the same general strengths. I want them to be good on their own merits, and not good just for the value of being a counterpick.

You are asking for far, far too much.

There isnt a single game company capable of providing what you ask for here, i highly suggest you just give it up right away.

To illustate my mening lets look at some other classes.....like assassins can never be good when enhancer or high peel supports are good, tanks can never be good when skirmishers and divers are.

Divers cannot be good when tanks are, and while they can be when assassins are they usually build either full AD or those AD/HP builds instead making them pretty much work like assassins and when they do they also suck against high peel.

Any marksman lacking even a little in self peel cannot be good when assassins/divers/engage tanks are good without a ton of specialized support help.

Mage supports cannot be good when heals/shields are strong or when initiation is, or when assassins/divers are.

Artillery mages will not be good when there is a lot of initiation champs, heal/shield supports or assassins around.

Battle mages have the same issue if heavy initiation/cc is common but they do better against assassins while struggling more against marksmen/supports instead.

Burst mages are similar to assassins in how they suck when the other side have heals/peel available.

So, asking them to be good on their own merit is basically saying that you want them to be so good at their job that they at least almost always work.

What does a juggernaut do?

Heavy duty melee that deals tons of damage, often ignores or/and reduces resistances while also being able to take a lot of damage.

If they were made so strong that they were generally viable we´d be back to season 5 where riot had to straight up pause worlds because juggernauts where so OP that they crowded out all other picks.

Riot fucking up every tank design since Sion isn't really my problem. They've had their shit all over the place for years and fixing it would require changes so far beyond the scope of what anyone would actually want that it'll never happen.

And you want them to buff the juggernauts to basically same spot the tanks had meaning they´d be extremely likely to face the same end?

Being generally viable is a sin for anything that is capable of easily influencing teamfights on its own, nearly every juggernaut is when the conditions are met, at least to a much greater degree than the divers.

That said. Sejuani still has impressive single-target lockdown and disruption, and potent synergy with melee allies who can stack for her - and then she gives back by stunning their target to prevent being disengaged. Darius cannot start a fight or make a pick nearly as well as Sejuani who can initiate on you from well over a screen away with Q+R. Darius can respond to being initiated on much better than Sejuani, though, because he has an immediate answer to gapclosing tanks with his hook and the threat of his passive going off to let him carry the fight.

And just the same sejuani is utter shit when enemy team has a answer for her initiation, maybe in some form of cleanse, windwall, spellshield or just a potent frontline, she is also remarkably useless if the enemy side can poke her passive down easily.

She is also even worse when no one can help her activate her E to the point where she might never do it.

0,6% Playrate and 39% winrate for diamond+.

0,8% P and 43% W for plati+.

Seju and the word impressive only go together if we mention how she has managed to reach the lowest win and pickrate in diamond in the history of league as far as i know.

Seriously i dont think i have ever seen a champ with such a low win and pickrate at the same time, not even once.

Utility doesn't have to be CC. What I want are other things - debuffs, and buffs for teammates, auras - shit that makes for a competent strategy game and gives my teammates a reason to actually play around me. And yeah, tanks should have that stuff, too. But their general end goal should be different; a tank wants to apply CC and keep aggro. A juggernaut wants to do damage and avoid aggro long enough to punish you for not aggroing.

Problem is here that the entire concept of utility and "play around me for buffs" is pretty much support exclusive, a tank somehow getting that ability is going to end up over

Seju and Shen i guess were test runs at it with their kits and.....well we know how those turned out.

So to conclude,,,,,,,changing something without causing a giant mess would be ...very difficult, to put it mildly.

What i think needs to be done, is a set of tank reworks where they are well and truly made for soaking, initiation/peel and finally DPS.

Because something that has been a giant problem with the current tanks is that they could engage and just instantly take half a squishy´s health, seju just post rework did like 80% nearly instantly, from % damage.

And i am a bit depressed to be honest, old Seju W was pretty much what i saw as a ideal tank ability, does a bit of damage then more over time IF she stands ontop of them.

I mean sure it lacks obvious counter play for everyone but at the same time its not either useless or broken all the time, we could use abilities like those former ones.

3TWarriorDec 13, 20181 votes

juggernauts are quite literally designed as raid bosses, you know, the super powerful, super predictable enemies

they all get high damage and high durability because they have little in the way of mobility or none at all and are typically restricted in some manner

Take illaoi. She has the highest damage POTENTIAL in the game, but her skillshots are all slow and delayed

ThefrostyvikingDec 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

juggernauts are quite literally designed as raid bosses, you know, the super powerful, super predictable enemies they all get high damage and high durability because they have little in the way of mobility or none at all and are typically restricted in some manner

This was never the case, because it doesnt function at all.

A champ that is so strong with the condition of being slow/predictable is always unconditionally useless unless the enemy doesnt have any means of doing anything even if they know what´s coming, at which point the juggernaut becomes insanely OP instead.

Take illaoi. She has the highest damage POTENTIAL in the game, but her skillshots are all slow and delayed

Her abilities arent that slow, her issue is that her ult is though, a group on enemies dedicated to run away will most likely not tank any notable damage, which is also why Illaoi tends to be useless for the most time.

The idea of a slow predictable raidboss is a doomed concept right from the start, it doesnt work, massive case of feast or famine.

Which is also why items like righteous glory or ghost in the start if i recall right are so popular on many of them,,,,,,but this offsets their weaknesses which means they need to have less power in turn, tradeoffs so to write.

Which means the raidboss idea died right from the start.

Moody PDec 13, 20181 votes

Her abilities arent that slow

She has egregiously long cast times and delays on everything except her W

Illaoi's issue is that she requires being dogpiled on and then ignored to get her maximum value; if her R spawned the same number of tentacles every time then she would not have this issue.

ThefrostyvikingDec 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=00000000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-13T17:45:48.013+0000)

She has egregiously long cast times and delays on everything except her W ´ Its not that slow, trust me i play a lot of immobile champs, the issue is just that there are a lot of mobile ones that makes her look like a tortoise......but she cant be buffed because that would just be a massive mess.

A issue many other immobile ones suffer from as well.

Illaoi's issue is that she requires being dogpiled on and then ignored to get her maximum value; if her R spawned the same number of tentacles every time then she would not have this issue.

She is still pretty terrifying even if she only catches 3 in her ult, but the main and biggest issue is that if people just run away the only one to take any real damage will be the one who got hit by her E.

Her ult takes too long to be truly effective, since everyone knows she is pretty helpless if they run.

3TWarriorDec 14, 20181 votes

I would like to point out: nasus, mordekaiser(he was actually a big probem before his update), chogath, DrMundo , Garen (though people point out that his damage reduction should not be so high) , Illaoi ,

i'm not sure about Gangplank but he follows the same pattern, Sion does as well but he has range

Shyvana : literally a dragon with the motto of "I get to you, you are likely to die"

Skarner : people call him a juggernaut but not sure

Yorick : comes with his own army of minions

Swain plays similar to one as well, but i'm not sure how the category battle mage fits in.

they've all had their place and some still run rampant

ThefrostyvikingDec 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I would like to point out: nasus, mordekaiser(he was actually a big probem before his update), chogath, , (though people point out that his damage reduction should not be so high) , ,

Point out what? O_O

Every single juggernaut has been so problematic that they had to be nerfed to obscurity except Darius and Garen only recently came back.

The others you mentioned are pretty much dead.

3TWarriorDec 15, 20181 votes

you said that it does not function at all. it does, often too effectively. Any time nasus has ever been meta, he can easily become a monster

mordekaiser shoved marksmen out of LCS when he was first reworked

mundo is fairly effective, but his damage is limited to one target at a time

ThefrostyvikingDec 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you said that it does not function at all. it does, often too effectively. Any time nasus has ever been meta, he can easily become a monster

Eh i was trying to say that it doesnt function in the sense that it cant be balanced.

Its either OP or its garbage, which is a terrible state of being in the first place that riot has been trying to remove with various reworks here and there to ....inconsistent results.

mordekaiser shoved marksmen out of LCS when he was first reworked

Juggernauts overall were insanely OP when their class rework came around, worlds had to be stopped just for riot to work in a massive nerf-patch in to remove them which kinda drove a lot of pro´s nuts at the time.

mundo is fairly effective, but his damage is limited to one target at a time

Effective how? He has like 1,5% playrate and 47% winrate, last i checked this was terrible.

Z3SleeperDec 12, 20182 votes

You're missing the true fundamental difference between a tank and a juggernaut.

The difference isn't tankiness. That's where you're getting confused.

Juggernauts trade CC for more damage while tanks trade damage for more CC.

Tanks aren't tanks because they are tanky, they are tanks because they can build tanky to soak damage while still providing CC for their team.

Juggernauts aren't effective tanks because even though they can soak damage, they can't lock down targets like tanks can.

Some Juggernauts are even flat out tankier than tanks due to their % health healing mechanics combined with high health itemization. Tankiness (tanky/tankier/etc.) is just a term we use to define durability, not whether they are a tank or not.

That's why tanks are usually more favored in pro play (were atleast until this damage fiasco), because CC is drastically better there, not because tanks tank more damage.

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're missing the true fundamental difference between a tank and a juggernaut.

The difference isn't tankiness. That's where you're getting confused.

Juggernauts trade CC for more damage while tanks trade damage for more CC.

Thing is, tanks got their CC nerfed, hard.

Because no one likes being chainstunned to death.

So if juggernauts get durability similar to tanks then they are the same pretty much aside from having much better damage,....

Sire HippingtonDec 12, 20181 votes

when and in what world was their CC nerfed? Seju and Orn CC nerfs are still on PBE, and the rest has more rather than less CC since the tank update.

What changed is that their numbers got nerfed and damage over all increased so they can't do shit in lane(exept sion who also is the only tank still frequently seen in pro) and also have a hard time in the jungle. Also, even if tanks get played, most get played as full ap living nukes cause tank items don't buy nearly enough time to be relevant, it's just much more effective to have as much impact with your first engage as possible. Another reason for tanks not beeing seen as much is that other classes got more and more CC. Why play a tank bot then thresh and Rakan can offer similar CC but saver and with aditional benefits, why play a tank top when Aatrox has 4 hard CCs, Urgot comeing with a ranged slow, a displace and a strong aoe fear or Irelia haveing a powerfull aoe slow and an aoe stun to initiate fights just as well...

ThefrostyvikingDec 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sa6FwZp3,comment-id=000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2018-12-12T17:20:17.705+0000)

when and in what world was their CC nerfed? Seju and Orn CC nerfs are still on PBE, and the rest has more rather than less CC since the tank update.

.....Like are you joking or what?

Seju first had her ult gutted in her rework, making it so that it could only stun 1 in exchange for buffing the rest of her kit AKA damage/tankiness along with getting her current E which is proving to be a highly conditional and mostly useless stun, also a narrow-easy-to-miss W slow.

Her Q range was also slightly reduced.

Then she had her ult further nerfed in terms of slow area, and now her damage is getting buffed in exchange for the E stun and range being cut further.

Zac and some others also took quite few nerfs,,,,maokai? I cant actually recall but i mostly only paid attention to seju given that she is one of the champs i truly liked before the rework x)

What changed is that their numbers got nerfed and damage over all increased so they can't do shit in lane(exept sion who also is the only tank still frequently seen in pro) and also have a hard time in the jungle. Also, even if tanks get played, most get played as full ap living nukes cause tank items don't buy nearly enough time to be relevant, it's just much more effective to have as much impact with your first engage as possible. Another reason for tanks not beeing seen as much is that other classes got more and more CC. Why play a tank bot then thresh and Rakan can offer similar CC but saver and with aditional benefits, why play a tank top when Aatrox has 4 hard CCs, Urgot comeing with a ranged slow, a displace and a strong aoe fear or Irelia haveing a powerfull aoe slow and an aoe stun to initiate fights just as well...

Reason you dont see tanks is because they got gutted, Meddler even acknowledged it in his gameplay thoughts a while back, Seju and Zac being the prime victims at the time although zac managed to hang on while Seju decays more and more.

Nerfs being the first hit, items nerfs being the second and finally true damage being the nail in the coffin.

Also, aftershock thresh is basically a tank, his souls boost his armor, he has tons of CC and nice utility-......this goes for Aatrox as well, he can activate aftershock by landing Q or W well and his ult makes him able to initiate without much fear.

Urgot however is a juggernaut, great in a fight but he doesnt get into one easily against a careful team.

Irelia explodes if someone can actually manage to hit her before she combo´s them to death,.......goes easily either way proven by her 47% winrate and 11% pickrate......well point being that she can initiate but she wont survive it if even a bit unlucky.

Z3SleeperDec 12, 20181 votes

Exactly this, I sorta mentioned it in my post. Tanks aren't seeing as much play for 2 reasons.

"Death is the best CC" is more prominent now than ever.
Other champions such as Urgot and Aatrox are effectively doing their job.

WAZZZUP500Dec 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're missing the true fundamental difference between a tank and a juggernaut.

The difference isn't tankiness. That's where you're getting confused.

Juggernauts trade CC for more damage while tanks trade damage for more CC.

Tanks aren't tanks because they are tanky, they are tanks because they can build tanky to soak damage while still providing CC for their team.

Juggernauts aren't effective tanks because even though they can soak damage, they can't lock down targets like tanks can.

He's right you know. Also tanks generally have more/better damage reduction abilities (naut w, shen passive, maokai passive, leona w). Darius, nasus, morde, yorik; these champs have far inferior (or nonexistent) damage reduction abilities. The only juggarnaut that has a really good damage reduction ability is garen. I don't count mundo as a juggarnaut, he's in a class of his own.

Sire HippingtonDec 13, 20181 votes

Darius healing up to 36% of his missing health on 5sec base cd(3sec with cdr) is potentially alot stronger than maos passive, though less reliable. Nasus lifesteal which works on the Q should not be underestimated and is roughly on par with mao for sustain once he's stacked up (and way ahead in lane as it's unconditional), and his ult is a massive hp and armor/mr boost. Morde has about the most powerfull defenseive tool with his passive, and two strong heals from W and Ult, his defensive tools easily shit on every tank exept for an ulting alistar. Amongst those, yorik is the only one with poor defenive tools, and even his sustain on Q shouldn't be underestimated.

Either you don't know much about the jugernaut kits or you really underestimate their defensive tools. The reason probably is that you hardly notice them in game cause they usually don't work well when kited/CCed and even if they can use them, they still die pretty fast in teamfights.

WAZZZUP500Dec 14, 20181 votes

The main thing you mentioned: not as reliable. That's why tanks have better damage reduction tools; the tools are much less situational and can't be outplayed. Nasus requires a lot of stacks. Darius needs to hit all 5 people with sweet spot of q for the full heal. You can easily walk out of morde w, he has low base ms and no mobility. And illaoi only heals if you don't dodge her tentacles. I main morde, I play darius and yorik (sometimes), and I've witnessed illaoi and nasus. I know how their kits work, and their defensive tools aren't as reliable as a nautilus w, shen passive, Leona w, or maokai passive.

I can't even count how many times I've been absolutely shit on as morde because my lane opponent knew how to deal with me (also the shield really doesn't change much, you still get blown up in a second if their team targets you)

I Spread CancerDec 12, 20181 votes

Jugger aren't supposed to be less tanky than tank. Tank = Defense + CC Juggernaut = Defense + Offense

If tank look tankier to you it's because they go atfershock or build 6 defense item instead of 5.

WAZZZUP500Dec 12, 20183 votes

Haha you fool, don't you know that defense doesn't exist anymore? Damage is the best buff he could get!!1!

Weiner the PoohDec 12, 20183 votes

Riots solution is to just throw damage at things. If its "weak" buff its damage, thats the only problem, it couldnt possibly be something else.

Summonah12369Dec 12, 20181 votes

I'm confused why this tank is designed to stack buttloads of damage, doesn't Riot want tanks to do little damage?

Iota ThetaDec 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused why this tank is designed to stack buttloads of damage, doesn't Riot want tanks to do little damage?

Juggernaut, not a tank. Tanky does not always mean they are a tank

VargrjalmerJan 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused why this tank is designed to stack buttloads of damage, doesn't Riot want tanks to do little damage?

no, he's offset by his complete lack of mobility in example a lucian with black cleaver can keep well out of reach of nasus's q just by his dashes and the speed buff from w, so long as he knows how to orbwalk. lots of champs can kite, nasus dies when he's cc'd and can't q anything bc most of his survivablity comes from his lifesteal.