Veigar's stun still gives the target .75s to move slightly in any direction to not be stunned

CupcakeTrap··37 votes·7,464 views

NOTE: Depending on how you read the patch notes, it's possible that the warning animation now plays for "only" .50s. Perhaps a Red could clarify this. Regardless, .5s is an awfully long time for enemies to click in any direction to not get stunned, even if Veigar has landed the stun perfectly on top of them.

http://i.imgur.com/zPdQvte.png

Riot says it admits it went too far with the "compensation" nerfs Veigar received for DFG's removal. (While I greatly respect Riot's balance team, I admit I have a hard time writing "compensation" without scare quotes in this context. I would be curious to know which Veigar players told Riot that making his stun no longer stun people unless they stand perfectly still for almost a full second would not be a major nerf.) It explains that it's now buffing him back up.

A variety of changes have been made, but the essential point that I think people should bear in mind is this: the 5.3 changes were a huge nerf because Veigar effectively lost his stun, and nothing Riot has implemented or proposed since then gives it back. I don't think I'm being melodramatic to say he's lost his stun; the 5.3 changes gave Veigar's enemy almost a full second of warning animation to move slightly in any direction to avoid being stunned, and that hasn't changed.

I understand that there were problems with the old edge-stun. I hated it myself, actually, because it felt weird that an ability that looks like a giant cage was actually just a really awkwardly shaped skillshot with a quirky curved hitbox. But until he regains some way to stun an enemy without them choosing to stand still for .75s, or quite literally throwing themselves into the stun, an already "meh"-tier Champion has been seriously, seriously nerfed—as "compensation" for the removal of his core item.

Before, Veigar's stun appeared .25s after button-press, and stunned anyone standing on the edge. The nerf changed that: after .25s, instead of the cage itself, a warning animation would appear, highlighting the edge in neon purple. That warning animation would play for .75s, the same time as the warning animation on Cho's Rupture. All an enemy has to do is move perhaps one Teemo of distance in any direction to avoid being stunned.

Riot is now changing that, but only a little. Enemies will still have .75s of vivid warning particles to make sure they're not standing directly on the edge of the cage. The principal change is that this warning now appears immediately, rather than after .25s of invisible cast delay windup.

They say they'll also make it so that enemies who end up inside the cage can't dash out of it. Before, enemies who dashed through the cage's walls would still get the full dash of distance, but would land there stunned; now, they can't dash through it in the first place. This is certainly nice, but doesn't do anything to allow this "stun" ability to actually, well, stun someone.

History

Here's some more detail as to what happened.

  • Before the dark times. Pre-5.4 Veigar had an ability called Event Horizon. It created a "cage" with walls that would stun enemies on contact. It did absolutely nothing to enemies standing inside the cage, but if Veigar lined the the (somewhat thin) circular edge up with the enemy, and they didn't move during the .25s it took to appear, they would be stunned. Veigar players referred to failing to hit an enemy with the edge as "missing" the stun, which usually led to a swift death for the tiny yordle, as his would-be prey exploded him from inside the cage.
  • Patch 5.3: DFG removed. Riot removed DFG. They stated that they would compensate Champions, like Veigar, who relied heavily on DFG. (There have since been some claims that Veigar actually didn't need DFG. I don't want to go off on a tangent, but suffice it to say that most Veigar mains disagreed: it dramatically increased the range of targets that he could burst, and when fed it essentially gave him an extra ult versus squishy targets that would die to DFG+Q+W alone. I do think that Meddler's remark that he didn't think Veigar actually suffered from DFG's removal may help explain the changes that followed.)
  • While this is rather embarrassing to admit, my main concern was that they would have to buff Veigar so much to compensate him for the loss of DFG that he would end up a totally reworked Champion. I'm glad that didn't happen: Veigar was always weak, but I played him anyway, and at the end of the day I wouldn't mind Veigar becoming even weaker. Oh, how naive I was. It did not even occur to me that they would do all three of these things: remove DFG, not buff him, and rework him. Well, sometimes Riot surprises you. Actually, they went further than that, beyond the furthest bounds of my imagination: not only did they not buff him, but they applied a truly massive nerf.
  • Patch 5.4: Veigar is "compensated". Riot announced their compensation in the next patch. Somewhat strangely, this "compensation" included a drastic nerf to Event Horizon. The .25s cast delay would now be followed by a .75s warning animation that essentially said "WARNING! IF YOU STAND HERE YOU WILL GET STUNNED! PLEASE STEP SLIGHTLY TO THE SIDE." Although .75s may not sound like a very long delay, that's the same as the warning for Cho'gath's Rupture. Unlike Cho'gath's Rupture, Veigar's stun is not a filled circle but a hollow ring. If Cho casts Rupture beneath you, you will get knocked up if you don't immediately run for the nearest edge. In contrast, even if Veigar lands Event Horizon directly underneath your feet, you need to move only a few steps in any direction to not get stunned. Also relevant: when Cho misses a Rupture, he generally does not immediately die.
  • There was more to the "compensation" than that. The major points: they made his Q a skillshot, allowed him to potentially q-farm a larger percentage of the minion wave (in the fantasy world in which an enemy mid lets a Veigar who will always "miss" his stun free-farm), and nerfed the damage on his ult.
  • Patch 5.5: Cast delay (but not warning duration) reduced. In Patch 5.5, Riot announced that they feared they had gone a little too far with this "compensation". They did not change the duration of either the cast delay or the warning animation, but they made them happen concurrently, rather than sequentially: the "WARNING: VEIGAR IS TRYING TO STUN YOU!" alert appeared instantly on button press, rather than .25s later. (Astonishingly, the earth does not seem to have resounded with the jubilant cries of euphoric Veigar mains.) They also made his Q, which is now a skillshot, travel a little faster.

I don't think Riot's really compensated him for DFG's removal yet. Actually, I don't think he's even been brought back up to where he was after DFG's removal. I suspect that if you asked Veigar mains to choose between the 5.4 "compensation" changes and the removal of DFG, they would happily choose the removal of DFG.

Maybe there's hope?

Riot Scarizard says that more buffs are coming in 5.6:

@CupcakeTrap Veigar will be receiving more changes in 5.6 alongside the inclusion of his wall-stopping.

(Source.)

Hopefully, that will include a way for him to stun someone without them losing their internet connection in the middle of his cast.

70 Comments

Hellioning18 votes

Riot doesn't like the point and click stun? Fine. The skill works fine as a zone control tool; if you see the enemy tank pop righteous glory and run for your team, you can put the cage on you and completely neuter their engage, that's pretty cool.

But it does nothing for the 'there's an assassin on me SHIT SHIT SHIT' scenarios, and it's not gonna be able to be used offensively unless you can get your opponent in the middle of the ring (which'll probably only happen if you burn a flash for it, and the opponent can always just turn and kill you instead at that range.) I get what Riot is going for, but I don't think that Veigar can be the champion they want him to be; I mean, if you're going to want a champion to flash stun somebody, why not Annie?

CupcakeTrap13 votes

{quoted}

Riot doesn't like the point and click stun? Fine. The skill works fine as a zone control tool; if you see the enemy tank pop righteous glory and run for your team, you can put the cage on you and completely neuter their engage, that's pretty cool.

But it does nothing for the 'there's an assassin on me SHIT SHIT SHIT' scenarios, and it's not gonna be able to be used offensively unless you can get your opponent in the middle of the ring (which'll probably only happen if you burn a flash for it, and the opponent can always just turn and kill you instead at that range.) I get what Riot is going for, but I don't think that Veigar can be the champion they want him to be; I mean, if you're going to want a champion to flash stun somebody, why not Annie?

Exactly. I think Veigar used to be a high-risk, high-reward Champion with a lot of strategic decisions to make, e.g. between going for an insta-burst or using his stun to help his team overall.

I think what they've turned Veigar into is a tanky poke mage who gets eaten alive in 1v1s (old Veigar always had some chance to explosively turn the tables and burst an enemy assassin) and just sort of mashes buttons in teamfights. That's how I felt when I tried New Veigar: like all it wanted me to do was AFK-farm my Q in lane, then in teamfights sort of throw my stun somewhere to annoy the enemy team and start throwing Q skillshots at them like a tiny yordle Ezreal. It was…really, really dull. The fact that it was also a major nerf was in many ways beside the point.

Hellioning6 votes

That sounds about right. Old Veigar was always this mega huge burst mage, and when one of his burst spells was a ground targetted spell with a large delay, you need a stun to land that. He's now almost entirely reliant on additional CC from his allies, which I don't think makes much sense for his character. I get that he's a yordle and needs attention and love from Lulu fellow yordles, and you might be able to make some sort of characterization argument of 'he's trying to act mean and tough but he still needs help!' but I don't think that's what Riot was going for.

Yiffed By Veigar6 votes

We must wait for now.

Lord Malice6 votes

Removing DFG moved Veigar from a niche pick to a bad pick, deleting his stun was just the rito icing on the cake. well played rito... well played.

If they want to give ppl an out on already hard to land stun then they should at least cut the mana cost and CD in half.

Iron Angel 2k34 votes

Veigar's stun isn't supposed to be an instant-cast AOE stun. Its a zone control tool. You were never really supposed to be using it offensively, and its not the design Riot wanted for the ability, so they changed it as a result. The while reason it is shaped like a cage is because it is a zone control tool, otherwise it would just be a big AOE stun. Dropping the wall directly on top of someone was a way to get around the built-in limitations of the ability, and Riot didn't like that about Veigar, so they fixed it.

Veigar isn't supposed to be trying to get early kills. He's supposed to farm Q and scale into a glass cannon in the mid and late game, and use his AOE zone control to control teamfights by dropping it someplace really bad for the enemy team. Thats what Riot wants the ability to be and it does that just fine. If you want a mage that clicks on the enemy and stuns them for a year while unloading huge burst, play annie instead.

Arcane Azmadi18 votes

ACTUAL RESULT OF CHANGES: Veigar is a shitty champ who gets dumpstered in lane, instantly blown up in teamfights, and does jack-shit nothing all game. Well done, Riot.

BuCkeT SeiZureS14 votes

Well you could have said it slightly more gracefully, I think you are correct. and Veigar has never been a zoning mage. You want Zone control, pick Ziggs or Viktor. Veigar is a burst mage, through and through. He also actually has a very interesting power spike graph. And i liked it because he was unique for it. He is weak early game, but not helpless. he is strong mid game. he is actually weak late game (people get banshees and GA, negating his burst) and then again strong in the very late game 60+ min (who cares about those items because he can kill through them) At the moment, he is just weak. You gotta love it when someone that has never played veigar thinks they know what they are talking about. @Iron Angel 2k3

Vellich0r5 votes

veigar as a competitive or high level pick was ironically best picked as a zone control mage. His AoE stun gate wrecked mobility and engage, so as long as he could survive laning, that stun became his ultimate to put it simply. That is why in korea (and even in the LCS, screw you C9) he was picked more as a support. with his instant stun he could be useful during laning phase by stunning targets for his adc to nuke, and then he could transition into an anti mobility monster who dropped his cage on an enemy turret and gave you a few precious seconds of free tower damage.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

He was actually being banned in lks

alot

BuCkeT SeiZureS5 votes

That was a HUGE problem. I agree they needed to hit his stun. But he is just a pretty bad poke mage now. They need to do things to represent him as a burst mage....besides lowering his overall damage... I mean seriously. Nerfing his ultimate to "compensate" for the dfg removal. And raising the cool down on his Q. Just wow...

But I agree that veigar's E needed changes, these just aren't quite the right ones

Rinky Dinky1 votes

He either needs cc inside of the cage, or increased damage to people inside of it

Thryale1 votes

I want my point and click Q back more than anything atm. Yeah the stun changes suck, but with his q bein a skill shot, it makes farming q stacks harder now, and veig will actually shove the lane too. With no reliable defense due to the gutting of his E, shoving lane is an even worse idea now than ever before.

Kuroi861 votes

I mean seriously. Nerfing his ultimate to "compensate" for the dfg removal. And raising the cool down on his Q. Just wow...

That was because you can now farm a lot more AP than before. The lose of damage on his ult really isn't noticable, the only issue is not being able to hit dark matter, that lose of damage is a big hit.

DrCyanide4 votes

Yeah, that was the theory.

Didn't really explain why in 5.4 support Veigar (who shouldn't be farming anything) had a higher win rate than mid Veigar (who should be farming everything in sight). We'll have to see how 5.5 pans out, but I'm not too optimistic.


I didn't get Veigar to add another poke mage to my champion pool, or to have another support. I bought Veigar to have a burst mage. The changes to his Q on 5.5, and to his Q/E on the PBE right now, make me feel like Riot wants him to be a poke mage.

Thryale2 votes

it's because "burst" + "immobile" aren't allowed in league. Because lacking mobility means you lack the almighty "counter play" apparently.

It's like, Veig's Q atm is really short range for a skill shot, and I want to want it to have more range. But I don't want more range on it. I don't want it as a skill shot. Period. I want my point and click back, especially since I can't land my W anymore.

Kuroi861 votes

The added range is nice, makes for more zone control. But it doesn't solve the problem with landing Dark Matter which honestly what he needs.

Thryale1 votes

then friggin increase the cd on his stun to 24 secs or somethin! don't ruin how it actually works!

Kuroi861 votes

You're right, Veigar was never played as a zone control mage, that was what he was made for, but he was never played that way. If Riot wants to push him more towards that sort of playstyle, he's going to need more range and something to make his W a lot more worth while.

Silents4293 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iron Angel 2k3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sZVbAx3m,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-12T01:35:34.723+0000)

Veigar's stun isn't supposed to be an instant-cast AOE stun. Its a zone control tool. You were never really supposed to be using it offensively, and its not the design Riot wanted for the ability, so they changed it as a result. The while reason it is shaped like a cage is because it is a zone control tool, otherwise it would just be a big AOE stun. Dropping the wall directly on top of someone was a way to get around the built-in limitations of the ability, and Riot didn't like that about Veigar, so they fixed it.

Veigar isn't supposed to be trying to get early kills. He's supposed to farm Q and scale into a glass cannon in the mid and late game, and use his AOE zone control to control teamfights by dropping it someplace really bad for the enemy team. Thats what Riot wants the ability to be and it does that just fine. If you want a mage that clicks on the enemy and stuns them for a year while unloading huge burst, play annie instead.

I am not surprised you got downvoted. This is actually true.

PKnowledge6 votes

Veigar's stun isn't supposed to be an instant-cast AOE stun. Its a zone control tool.

Let me tell you why this can't be true : he has a secret spell that he can activate by pressing W, and that can do a lot of damage if you manage to land it. Care to explain how you land it if the E is just a zoning tool ?

Dropping the wall directly on top of someone was a way to get around the built-in limitations of the ability, and Riot didn't like that about Veigar, so they fixed it.

That's so wrong... Veigar was that way since years, why now ? They don't care about "getting around the built-in limitations", they just want to prevent a champion with strategic gameplay and high mobility counter from showing in pro games. Do you really think it's a coincidence if the compensation from DFG removal happened just after the high ban/pick in Korea pro plays ?

Thryale5 votes

not to mention "getting around built-in limitations" is part and parcel of being a gamer! Gamers by nature seek to over come obstacles presented by the developers. And when developers go behind our backs to make it impossible to do so or punish us for doing so is when we get jaded and move to a different game.

We are intelligent, and we enjoy solving our own problems, but with riot always pandering the community by trying to solve our problems for us, the players will eventually stop trying to solve things themselves and will come to expect riot to do it for us forever.

Hyrum Graff4 votes

Suggestions:

  • Dashing through the warning particle now stuns as if they walked through your cage.
  • Once the cage appears (700 diameter), it shrinks down to 550 diameter over its duration.

Result: veigar is now encouraged to place his cage so his opponents are in the center of it. They won't be able to dash out, and won't have time to walk out (but they will have time to walk out if he doesn't place it centered on them). Once placed, it forces his opponents to choose between being stunned and grouped tightly, which leaves them vulnerable to AOE.

Trídent3 votes

Yup. I'd prefer the old non-DFG Veigar over this.

DrCyanide3 votes

{quoted}

Maybe there's hope?

Riot Scarizard says that more buffs are coming in 5.6:

(Source.)

Hopefully, that will include a way for him to stun someone without them losing their internet connection in the middle of his cast.

Looks like that just hit the PBE

Q range increased to 900 (from 850) E range increased to 750 (from 700)

It looks like Riot really wants to enforce his playstyle as a poke mage, rather than fix the burst mage.

agbudar2 votes

i have an idea

ok so lets say you do it this way riot that way people can choose and veigar "effectively" has his stun/cage back.

how about THE MOMENT THE WARNING PARTICLES APEAR, the champions that thravel through it will get stunned after the 0,75 delay that way people can still sorta make a last minute call to not be in the cage or choose to stay and duke it out.

Malix Farwin2 votes

that picture pretty much sums up everything

Lucifer2 votes

you know, you bring up an interesting point. If we are going to give it the delay of cho's rupture, why not just have it stun everyone inside the cage after the delay? Wouldn't that make a lot more sense?

LoLKiru1 votes

I believe the warning delay was also reduced this patch (unless im misinterpreting the notes, would REALLY like some red clarification on this) which is interesting because that wasn't on the PBE.

Notice the notes say the skill now starts at the beginning of the cast animation, not at the end (so thats -.25 seconds of delay; 1 second --> .75) but then go on to mention that the delay on the skill ITSELF was also reduced (.75 --> .50), this implies that the total delay is now .5 seconds, a whole half second shorter than it was in 5.4 (and .25 seconds shorter than it was on the 5.5 PBE)

Q is also now 2000 speed (on the PBE I believe it was 2200)

and as a final note, E still stops dashes (well it should in 5.5, but it was pulled due to a bug at the last minute, confirmed that it will be in 5.6)

CupcakeTrap3 votes

Here's what Surrender@20 had:

Event Horizon (E) warning particle/delay now begins at the start of Veigar's E's .25 cast time seconds) rather than at the end. [Note: While the warning particle/delay is still .75 seconds, the change in order makes the whole process .25 second faster.]

I would interpret that to mean that the "WARNING STUN WILL APPEAR HERE" animation still plays for .75s; it just starts immediately after button-press, rather than after .25s of invisible delay.

LoLKiru4 votes

{quoted}

Here's what Surrender@20 had: [Note: While the warning particle/delay is still .75 seconds, the change in order makes the whole process .25 second faster.]

Yeah, thats what it was on the PBE. Thats the weird part since the notes specifically say that both the warning particle delay, AND the casting delay are now shorter.

E - Event Horizon DELAY BEFORE WALLS APPEAR 0.75 ⇒ 0.5 WARNING PARTICLE DISPLAY After cast time ⇒ On cast

From the 5.5 notes

Edit: Its definitely a little vague as to what it means, would really like some red clarification on this (testing it ingame would probably suffice too if someone can get an accurate measurement once 5.5 is out)

CupcakeTrap2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, thats what it was on the PBE. Thats the weird part since the notes specifically say that both the warning particle delay, AND the casting delay are now shorter.

E - Event Horizon DELAY BEFORE WALLS APPEAR 0.75 ⇒ 0.5 WARNING PARTICLE DISPLAY After cast time ⇒ On cast

From the 5.5 notes

Edit: Its definitely a little vague as to what it means, would really like some red clarification on this (testing it ingame would probably suffice too if someone can get an accurate measurement once 5.5 is out)

Yeah, that still strikes me as a little vague.

Regardless, if Cho's Rupture gives targets .75s to try to escape a large filled circle, giving Veigar's enemies even .5s to move away from a rather thin ring makes it pretty hard to stun someone.

LoLKiru1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that still strikes me as a little vague.

Regardless, if Cho's Rupture gives targets .75s to try to escape a large filled circle, giving Veigar's enemies even .5s to move away from a rather thin ring makes it pretty hard to stun someone.

I think Cho's rupture is .625 seconds or something. It would actually be pretty consistent if the hitbox wasn't really wonky.

To put it into perspective assuming im right about the way Veigar's E was changed. It would basically take .25 seconds longer than pre-5.4 Veigar did to stun you (since his original stun had a .25 second delay), don't know if its quick enough to make his stun truly reliable, but its certainly another big step towards viability. If this still isn't enough I'd imagine the next logical step would be reducing the delay on his W (since Meddler said if he still underpreformed they would buff him again)

youngjake931 votes

{quoted}

Here's what Surrender@20 had: [Note: While the warning particle/delay is still .75 seconds, the change in order makes the whole process .25 second faster.]

I would interpret that to mean that the "WARNING STUN WILL APPEAR HERE" animation still plays for .75s; it just starts immediately after button-press, rather than after .25s of invisible delay.

That was in the PBE. The actual patch brought the delay down to .5 seconds. So really the delay went from .25s(pre-nerf Veigar) to .5s with warning particles. Which basically accomplishes what they want... Counterplay for the edge-stun while still leaving the skill as viable.

BuCkeT SeiZureS2 votes

well, somewhat viable. The difference is that before, Veigar was not telegraphing where his stun will be. Would much rather them have brought his cast time to .5 and have the cage appear immediately, than what we have now. something i like to think about is "what would happen if i used this from the fog of war vs in lane" I'll use an ahri charm as an example.

In lane: I have direct counterplay. the missile is quick, but i know what i need to do to avoid it. Stay behind minions and watch her movement. when she is looking aggressive, i need to retreat and make my pathing unpredictable. if i am pretty far away, i have time to walk perpendicular to the ability. So while the skill shot is pretty easy to land, I have counterplay.

FoW: You are screwed. you do not have time to react and you will get hit if the Ahri has any skill at all.

Now for Veigar's new stun:

In lane: Wait for him to cast it and walk either away or toward the center of the circle in .5 seconds. not very difficult to avoid. If i have a dash, use it to jump out before the walls close. If trapped, use damage on the short ranged yordle (if Veigar is going to use ult, he is very close) or just dodge the slowly falling meteor.

FoW: Notice the telegraphed stun and Walk either away or toward the center of the circle in .5 seconds. not very difficult to avoid. If i have a dash, use it to jump out before the walls close. If trapped, use damage on the short ranged yordle (if Veigar is going to use ult, he is very close) or just dodge the slowly falling meteor.

I dont like that it still heavily relies on your opponent messing up rather than you succeeding. I can understand making it somewhat easy to deal with if you can see him, but making it easy to deal with even when he gets the jump on you is just bad.

So i would happily allow veigar to take .5 seconds to cast the ability in which he clearly looks like he is casting it, giving the opponent time to "juke" it. but instead they know exactly where it will be and when it will be there.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

375 radius 0.75 second total delay with the next patch 700 range

You need at least 500 movespeed to walk out of the ring before the stun procs if the center is placed on your champion

I think he'll manage

CupcakeTrap9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sZVbAx3m,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-12T02:29:04.433+0000)

375 radius 0.75 second total delay with the next patch 700 range

You need at least 500 movespeed to walk out of the ring before the stun procs if the center is placed on your champion

I think he'll manage

That's to actually run out of the cage before the walls go up. Getting them inside the cage is okay, but that's never been enough. Historically, Veigars who throw their stun around the enemy die pretty fast: nothing about being inside the cage prevents the enemy from nuking Veigar.

Direwolfiez4 votes

They're obviously not a Veigar player, Cupcake, they don't understand. It always makes me laugh when people say, "Just trap them in his E and burst them down." I would, but I don't particularly like dying while trying to burst people, so...

Stephenizgod1 votes

Well i know now im going to get downvoted for saying this but here goes: These changes were not a nerf or at least not meant to be a nerf. Yes, Veigar was under-tuned a bit because they overestimated the double Ap, which is very useful but not always practical. The stun was bullshit, we all know it and do not pretend there was anything fair about it, but there were reasons for why it was the way it was. Those reasons are invalid today, we all complain about Mobility Creep, Veigars stun was actually more unhealthy in a lot of ways but we accepted it as a necessary evil. Now a 0.25 second cast time and 0.75 second delay is complete nonsense, these were meant to be a buff not a nerf and that part makes it impossible to look at it that way. If im reading this correctly it looks like the notification starts right when you click the button so its like a 0.5 second delay now.

WHICH IS GREAT.

Just for comparison, Malzahar's Q: Call of the Void also has a 0.5 second delay and it is not very hard to hit at all. You say that is plenty of time to dodge? I disagree i hit my Q's way too often on mobile targets with Malzahar for me to even consider agreeing with you. Its all about timing and placement, this is where the "skill" part comes in. The only issue is when they go in on me, it is a Silence not a stun so it doesn't stop them from attacking me. Veigars is a stun though and a large one at that, 0.5 seconds is perfect amount of time to stun someone or allow them to get away. If anything id ask that Malzahars delay be changed to 0.35 seconds to help him secure his place as the DoT Assassin Mage. Remember the whole reason for these changes was to properly identify Veigar as THE burst mage, being 100% safe because he can just insta-stun you at any time is not part of his identity (yes im exaggerating so please dont blow up about this sentence...). He isnt really meant to kill assassins, he is meant to melt their carries and the stun with a 0.5 second delay is perfect for that.

So id just like to say that people should look at Malzahar's Q and tell me if that is too hard to hit for you with it having a smaller hit-box and kind of inferior form of CC. If you say it is then i must be Diamond+ :D :D :D :) :I.... nah im silver :(

Envy Sin1 votes

It's a .5 second delay to cast the stun, The cast animation is .25 seconds. ALL WITH THE WARNING

It used to be a .25 second cast time then .75 delay with the warning.

Now do some maths........ I'll wait..........

Meaning they changed it from .75 seconds of warning particles to .75 seconds of warning particles. Using a bunch of fancy terms to confuse all the kids that play this game. Apparently that's working.

Offensive stuns have not changed in the slightest.

Riot just hopes you think they did.

Jubbinaut1 votes

The delay was reduced from .75 seconds to .5 seconds. On top of that, the delay now begins on cast instead of after the animation. Which means that the total delay has gone down from 1 second to .5 seconds.

So how can the warning particle last longer than the actual delay?

Stephenizgod1 votes

It went from .25 second cast time and .75 second delay to .25 second cast time and .5 second delay. So yes there is still .75 seconds of warning but there is a full .25 seconds gone from the total stun time... So it was a buff not just wording and number magic to fool us... Its not instant stun and until it is again you people will continue to bitch and whine...

Envy Sin1 votes

No, .75 seconds is just way to long, Think cho rupture just as OP stated.

Veigar doesn't get the stun INSIDE only on the edges. Might as well make it the whole damn area.

Again offensive stuns have not changed

Stephenizgod1 votes

It is not way too long, i think it is just fine. From what I've seen a lot of people are using it quite effectively as a zoning tool rather then a bursting tool. Practicing placement and timing is required but it is still an extremely effective form of CC, the problem lies in the players who refuse to change how they use the stun.

Offensive stuns and defensive stuns are the same thing really.

Envy Sin1 votes

Offensive stun is used to land dark matter, Which is now impossible to land unless you're facing someone stupid.

Defensive stun is used to run/zone Which i agree works fine.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Impossible... thats all i keep seeing and yet i still see Veigars successfully stunning people all the time and its kind of hard to say these people are all stupid. Just because you can not land the stun does not mean there is a problem with the stun, it might be the stun but it also might be you.

Like i said you can use running and zoning offensively, it depends on how you play.

Envy Sin1 votes

Also read my post above, that's how it works. Test it out, Get a timer. See how long the warning is up.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Im not questioning your ability to do math, you are correct the notification is still up for .75 seconds but the overall stun delay is shorter... Thus it is a buff to, as you put it, "offensive stuns" although i think its still offensive stunning to use it as zone control.

georgiotatos1 votes

i think it should slow targets in the area until the stun activates, at least

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