Let's talk about Veigar's counterplay.

CupcakeTrap··129 votes·13,013 views

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/309/c/f/commission__jill_and_veigar_by_rintheyordle-d5k42m6.jpg "Counterplay? There is no counterplay! Your death is inevitable! Don't listen to her. She's just a Summoner. What does she know? I am the Dark Lord Veigar, Master of Evil! … STOP TRYING TO PET ME!" Artwork by Rin the Yordle.

The word "counterplay" is being used a lot in the discussion of the Veigar nerfs. Well, I suppose this is a safe time for me to share some of the things that, when playing Veigar, I'm always afraid the other team will do to counter me. I don't think any of this should be halfway surprising, but maybe some of it is.

Overall, I agree with the critique that Riot considers "counterplay" in a very limited sense, often involving mobility and twitch reflexes. That's definitely one kind of counterplay, but I think League is a fun game in part because it's not just about reflexes and split-second maneuvers: it's also about itemization, and teamfight positioning, and big-picture strategy. (Indeed, I suck at reflex-gaming; I'm trash at FPS games, and I can't ADC for the life of me. I like Veigar in part because I think he's a Champion who rewards slower types of strategy. When you make your move with Veigar, it's all over very quickly, one way or the other; the interesting part is what happens before that point when either you or the enemy makes the decision to throw down.)

For the record, I really like that he didn't get a total rework, because I love him as a Champion. However, I agree that these changes are nerfs. (Caveat: I don't really know how his new Q might play out. Too many variables at work there to say.) The game-breaker is the Rupture-esque delay on his stun. Do the designers have any idea what happens to Veigar on Live if he misses with the edge? He gets slaughtered from inside the stun-circle. Well, now not only does he always "miss" the stun, but he also has no way even of throwing down a wall to hold assassins at bay: they can hop right through and massacre him, and he'll watch the stun go up through a gray filter.

Anyway, here are some specific tips, as a way to illustrate his weaknesses and how they can be exploited by crafty opponents.

  1. Don't beat him in lane: CRUSH him in lane. He's not trying to beat you in lane: he's trying to survive, and if he can even just survive, he's got a shot. (Also, now he hates you passionately, and will not hesitate to obliterate you once the tables are turned.) One of the dumbest moves I've seen against me when playing Veigar is an enemy mid deciding to just passively farm. As Veigar, I am DELIGHTED to have a passive farm-lane with you. No, you need to crush him. His mana costs are huge. He's squishy. If he throws his stun in lane, he is lunch for a jungler. Gank him. Watch his mana bar. When it's low, beat the fluff out of him.
  2. Don't get cocky if you beat him in lane. Even if you trounce him in lane, that's no reason to think you're the next Froggen and start fantasizing about going 30/0 this match. The worst thing you can do is get full of yourself and go hardcore glass cannon in search of pentakills. If you pour all that gold you got from him into purely offensive stats, you had better be good, because he will mercilessly punish you if you get out of position. Instead, you should get a little tanky. Tankiness is extremely strong against a Champion like Veigar: if his burst destroys you in one shot, he gets to giggle. If his burst takes you to 5% health, you can beat him to death with his own hat.
  3. Positioning. "Waaa, there's no counterplay to his stun, I can't use dashes to jump around and avoid it like I was playing some kind of demented DDR game." The counterplay isn't about bouncing around the map with your fifteen dashes, KALISTA. (How I loathe you.) It's about slower, subtler, less-twitchy counterplay. Are you rushing to the front of the pack to try to get a super-awesome initiation? Well, you'd better know where Veigar is. If not, let your frontline do their job. If Veigar gets greedy and just makes a beeline for you, he will get 100-0'd himself very, very quickly by your frontline, and they won't even have to blow an ult to do it.
  4. It's not all about the 100-0. Everyone obsesses about his 100-0 single-target potential. When Veigar has been played at the pro level, do you know what the announcers talked about? Not his burst, but his stun. From a pro perspective, his stun is his greatest strength. Burst? Whatever. Vayne can burst you with her stupid crits. Darius can burst you with his axe, and then do the same to the rest of your team. Veigars who win games use their stuns (and those meteors, which HURT) to break the enemy team. Bursting a squishy mage or ADC is frosting on the cupcake. If you are a squishy, and the Veigar is good, you are not his primary target: you are a target of opportunity. If he catches you out, he'll destroy you, but if he chases obsessively after you, he'll get killed himself. He's thinking about how to use his stun to win the fight.
  5. Bait his stun. Being Veigar means being very, very scared of the enemy team. Every one of them can delete you. Your stun is your protection. It's easy to freak out and throw it prematurely to save yourself. If you can scare him into throwing a misplaced stun, you only have to wait for it to disappear before your team is ready to counter-initiate hard. Once the battle-lines close, a Veigar without his stun available is an easy lunch for any halfway-durable bruiser or dash-y assassin. He can't waddle away from Zed or Akali, and odds are good he won't even be able to push "R" before he's stunlocked and killed. Once his stun is down, you should be seeing red.
  6. Buy MR. This is largely what the second item is about, but it bears repeating. Buying a negatron cloak makes Veigar very, very sad. Is this shallow counterplay? I don't think so. It represents a balance of risk and reward. Veigar is a Champion who makes enemies pay very dearly for their mistakes. You don't have to buy MR against him, but if you decide to go all-or-nothing and build glass cannon, you need to really remember that the second half of that proposition is "or nothing". Itemization is meant to be about tradeoffs, and adaptability. If you rush a deathcap and don't stop to think, "wait, I'm playing against a burst mage, and I'm his number one target, maybe I should build some defense", you've tripped up on the itemization game. That's as legitimate a mistake, I feel, as forgetting to use your dash to get in position for one more auto-attack to get a third stack on the enemy or whatever. You're supposed to think about your opponents, and consider how you might itemize to defeat them.
  7. Don't let him get in your head. Veigar is a very psychological Champion. When his timing and positioning are just so, he can lock you down and delete you in a way that makes him seem unstoppable. It's an illusion, like the way his hat makes him seem bigger than the teensy little yordle he really is. When I'm playing Veigar, one of my main objectives is to convince you that my stun means instant death, so that you're afraid to get close. I'm basically bluffing—even if I can 100-0 you, which is less likely now without DFG, I may not actually be in a position to move in and do so, e.g. because your teammates are in position to intercept me; more simply, it might be that you have a move which will take me out if you hit me first or if you survive my rotation, and I'm just intimidating you into thinking that I never miss mine, or that I'm sure I can finish you off before you can hit back. ("This here is Primordial Burst, the biggest single-target nuke in the League. Now I know what you're asking yourself: does he have the MPen to one-shot me? You know, in all this excitement, I'm not sure myself. So, you've got to ask yourself one question: do I feel lucky? Well, do ya? PUNK?") Veigar has huge strengths and huge weaknesses, and he's trying to use the former (e.g. his ability to 100-0 squishies) to scare you so much that you don't notice the latter (e.g. his lack of mobility or any defensive option other than his precious stun).

So, just some thoughts.

147 Comments

ApexInTheCircle49 votes

All I can say is this is very well thought out and very well worded.

But, good luck telling other people that. I've noticed that most people who are mad at Veigar and crying about his E having no counter play are people who play Ahri, Akali and Katarina mid.

They can't have their precious mobile slaughterhouses be countered in the least.

CupcakeTrap14 votes

{quoted}

All I can say is this is very well thought out and very well worded.

But, good luck telling other people that. I've noticed that most people who are mad at Veigar and crying about his E having no counter play are people who play Ahri, Akali and Katarina mid.

They can't have their precious mobile slaughterhouses be countered in the least.

Thank you!

But, well, let's be fair. There's a lot that happens leading up to that moment where you pin the enemy down with a perfect stun and blast them to cinders, but the blasting-them-to-cinders part is the part that gets everyone's attention. It looks effortless. It's a terrifying hit to enemy morale, because played right, Veigar looks absolutely unstoppable, like all he has to do is push a button to delete you. But it's an act.

Now, I can see a critique against this. There are advantages to making people really feel like the enemy deserved to win, because they can clearly say "oh, I made X mistake, so I lost". It's very fair. Veigar is very spicy that way: played right, he makes the enemy feel powerless. They actually aren't powerless, but they may feel like it. Indeed, I find that there's a huge psychological dimension to playing Veigar. If you screw up, you look ridiculous, like a tiny yordle with a giant hat waddling around trying to look fierce and failing miserably. (Awwwwww. ♥) You need to use fear to keep the enemy in line. You can't let them find out how vulnerable you really are. A huge part of Veigar is conditioning the enemy to panic when you throw your stun. That's one reason why you can't afford to miss stuns: you need to train the enemy to associate a stun with DEATH. Your worst nightmare is them getting close to you; you need to use positioning and timing to punish them brutally when they get close, conditioning them to be much more scared of getting close to you than they should be.

Is that anti-fun? I don't know. Maybe. But I think the psychological battle is really interesting.

ApexInTheCircle12 votes

{quoted}

Thank you!

But, well, let's be fair. There's a lot that happens leading up to that moment where you pin the enemy down with a perfect stun and blast them to cinders, but the blasting-them-to-cinders part is the part that gets everyone's attention. It looks effortless. It's a terrifying hit to enemy morale, because played right, Veigar looks absolutely unstoppable, like all he has to do is push a button to delete you. But it's an act.

Now, I can see a critique against this. There are advantages to making people really feel like the enemy deserved to win, because they can clearly say "oh, I made X mistake, so I lost". It's very fair. Veigar is very spicy that way: played right, he makes the enemy feel powerless. They actually aren't powerless, but they may feel like it. Indeed, I find that there's a huge psychological dimension to playing Veigar. If you screw up, you look ridiculous, like a tiny yordle with a giant hat waddling around trying to look fierce and failing miserably. (Awwwwww. ♥) You need to use fear to keep the enemy in line. You can't let them find out how vulnerable you really are. A huge part of Veigar is conditioning the enemy to panic when you throw your stun. That's one reason why you can't afford to miss stuns: you need to train the enemy to associate a stun with DEATH. Your worst nightmare is them getting close to you; you need to use positioning and timing to punish them brutally when they get close, conditioning them to be much more scared of getting close to you than they should be.

Is that anti-fun? I don't know. Maybe. But I think the psychological battle is really interesting.

I would go out on a limb and say that's actually very good character design. When a champion can give you that feeling, a feeling that matches their lore. It's probably one of the greatest things you can feel in this game.

I first played Veigar in season 1, him and Anivia were the first champions I ever played and loved. Articuno and Vivi..had to say it. But Veigar has never felt overpowered to me, in terms of playing him and playing against him. If I stunned someone and deleted them I felt like I deserved the kill. On the opposite spectrum of that, if I got stunned and killed I feel like I made a mistake or he was just quicker on the draw than me.

That's one thing people who are crying "His stun has no counterplay" Are missing. He punishes bad playstyles, mainly that of attempting to just rush in and facetank someone until they're dead. And in this currently mobility meta we have going on which has lasted for 2 seasons, these changes are of 0 help to him in it's current form.

Right now I've been maining Talon, and when I got against a good veigar it can be extremely scary. It will go back and forth, I may first blood him and kill him 2-3 more times. But all it takes is one mishap on my end to get my killed. AND I LIKE THAT! I like knowing that I can't let my guard down against this guy, I like knowing that he will be viable as the game progresses bad lane phase or not. But sadly this E nerf and R ratio nerf are erasing his identity as a single target destroyer.

I just feel really sad that people are agreeing with Riot on this.

CupcakeTrap12 votes

{quoted}

I would go out on a limb and say that's actually very good character design. When a champion can give you that feeling, a feeling that matches their lore. It's probably one of the greatest things you can feel in this game.

YES. THIS.

I love Veigar because of how flavorful he is, and how much his gameplay reinforces his lore. His backstory is basically that he was a cute little yordle who got locked up and deprived of snuggles until he went insane and became a dark mage. (Best. Story. Ever.) His gameplay replicates this feeling: he's insecure, always trying to seem more scary than he really is, and his main objective is to get revenge on those who tormented him. As you're in lane, trying to Q-farm, the whole time you're thinking, "I'm small now, but JUST YOU WAIT. I'll show them. I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

Supposedly*, Summoners and Champions form a mental link that affects them both. I definitely feel that when playing Veigar. I've literally burst out laughing maniacally when I catch someone out and vaporize them. And while obviously I don't actually hate my adversaries, I have a lot of fun all-chatting about how I WILL DESTROY YOU!

*: I'm ignoring the Great Retcon here, because reasons.

ApexInTheCircle9 votes

{quoted}

YES. THIS.

I love Veigar because of how flavorful he is, and how much his gameplay reinforces his lore. His backstory is basically that he was a cute little yordle who got locked up and deprived of snuggles until he went insane and became a dark mage. (Best. Story. Ever.) His gameplay replicates this feeling: he's insecure, always trying to seem more scary than he really is, and his main objective is to get revenge on those who tormented him. As you're in lane, trying to Q-farm, the whole time you're thinking, "I'm small now, but JUST YOU WAIT. I'll show them. I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

I've noticed how a lot of the older champions gave this same effect. Annie is the first that comes to mind, Anivia and god yes Warwick. Playing them reflected their lore heavily.

My favorite is playing as Warwick and catching a blood scent and having the feeling of "Oh god you're in for it now. Here I come baby" It leads up to this epic chase. That's the feeling that most champions should give you while you play them. I'd say Rek'sai reflects this too. Being burrowed and seeing footsteps makes me feel like Jaws or something.

But with that being said, Riot needs to understand that nerfing or changing a champ like Veig in such a way literally kills their feeling and conflicts heavily with their playstyle and job.

Reazale3 votes

That Feeling when u burst ur lane Opponent after a rough lane... :D it nevers gets old for me.

Nahara3 votes

{quoted} But, well, let's be fair. There's a lot that happens leading up to that moment where you pin the enemy down with a perfect stun and blast them to cinders, but the blasting-them-to-cinders part is the part that gets everyone's attention. It looks effortless. It's a terrifying hit to enemy morale, because played right, Veigar looks absolutely unstoppable, like all he has to do is push a button to delete you. But it's an act.

Unless it's Veigar Bot. Fuck Veigar Bot and his perfect combo execution.

Zarxis3 votes

{quoted}

Thank you!

But, well, let's be fair. There's a lot that happens leading up to that moment where you pin the enemy down with a perfect stun and blast them to cinders, but the blasting-them-to-cinders part is the part that gets everyone's attention. It looks effortless. It's a terrifying hit to enemy morale, because played right, Veigar looks absolutely unstoppable, like all he has to do is push a button to delete you. But it's an act.

Now, I can see a critique against this. There are advantages to making people really feel like the enemy deserved to win, because they can clearly say "oh, I made X mistake, so I lost". It's very fair. Veigar is very spicy that way: played right, he makes the enemy feel powerless. They actually aren't powerless, but they may feel like it. Indeed, I find that there's a huge psychological dimension to playing Veigar. If you screw up, you look ridiculous, like a tiny yordle with a giant hat waddling around trying to look fierce and failing miserably. (Awwwwww. ♥) You need to use fear to keep the enemy in line. You can't let them find out how vulnerable you really are. A huge part of Veigar is conditioning the enemy to panic when you throw your stun. That's one reason why you can't afford to miss stuns: you need to train the enemy to associate a stun with DEATH. Your worst nightmare is them getting close to you; you need to use positioning and timing to punish them brutally when they get close, conditioning them to be much more scared of getting close to you than they should be.

Is that anti-fun? I don't know. Maybe. But I think the psychological battle is really interesting.

I don't think anyone has ever explained Veigar in such an accurate, satisfying way. I'm going to miss him if the E delay makes it past the PBE.

Pvt Yong Tai7 votes

I was about to make a post earlier today about "psychological counterplay" but I couldn't find the right words, so I'm so glad you made this post. It was pretty much everything I wanted to say, but better!

I honestly think this kind of counterplay has been missing as of late among forum-active LoL players. Back in season 2 (*queue old man voice, "back in my day....") a lot of champion skills had elements of "psychological counterplay".

Sivir's spellshield, warwick's ultimate, shaco's ult, veigar's everything, Annie's stun mechanic... the list goes on. Some, as you can see, are still in play today, but a lot of it has been lost.

Whenever someone cried WW OP in season 2, the automatic response was, "stick with a teammate and counter-CC his ult". But that isn't said very much anymore, just "omg WW chunked almost all of my health with his full ult".

Sivir's spellshield's psychological element got largely removed when the mana cost was removed.

Anyway, I'm just rambling at this point. You can see why I opted not to make a post myself (haha).

Really though. Thanks for posting this (all of it).

Splininka4 votes

Based on my experience in the PBE, I find that his cage has more psychological counterplay now that it has a delay. It wasn't what I expected when I read the notes, but here's what I saw:

Because the cage is so unreliable for edge stuns, it's not really worth trying for anymore. What this means is that you no longer need to worry about hitting those twitch cages. Instead, you can use the cage for zoning and denying enemy movement. That .75 delay is actually a buff to zone control, because it's almost a full second that your opponent will try to not stand in that spot.

It's also worth mentioning that with the range increase on Q, you can spend more time further away from your opponent, making aggression easier to read and respond to. Even mobile champions won't be able to easily get past the cage if you put it in front of them instead of around them.

All an all, as a big Veigar fan, I see the concerns, but I'd be interested in what other people think after trying him out.

CupcakeTrap8 votes

{quoted}

Because the cage is so unreliable for edge stuns, it's not really worth trying for anymore. What this means is that you no longer need to worry about hitting those twitch cages. Instead, you can use the cage for zoning and denying enemy movement. That .75 delay is actually a buff to zone control, because it's almost a full second that your opponent will try to not stand in that spot.

I like the idea of throwing more zone-control and teamfight stuns than burst-stuns, but it sounds like a real stretch to call that change a buff instead of a significant nerf. Veigar's stun is important in teamfights, yes, but edge-stuns are integral to his 1v1 combat, which often turns into a standard mage duel of "whichever one of us stuns the other first wins". I have no clue how one would all-in an enemy mid with this new stun. It also removes his (high-mana, Blue Buff dependent) backup plan for harassing an enemy who trades well: chaining EWQ until they're low enough to blow up with a full rotation. That's literally impossible now. Likewise, I don't see how his new stun could be of any use in pinning down an enemy mid for a jungler. At most, you can force them to run up to the edge of the cage and wait a second before dashing back to their tower. An edge-stun could lock them down for your jungler to pounce on.

I can imagine ways that you could use his new stun in 1v1 situations, but again, it sounds to me like its behavior is now essentially always the same as a "missed" stun on Live, which generally means a dead Veigar. When I get lazy on Live and throw my stun around the enemy mid for a gank, rather than hitting them with the edge, I usually either get 100-0'd myself (or more often, 30-0'd, because Veigar does not have a happy time in lane), or watch as the enemy mid hops away and my jungler glares at me for wasting their time. It seems that the new stun should have the same result.

Was this not the case when you tried it on PBE?

It's worth repeating yet again: I actually hate the edge-stun aspect of his E on Live. It's also one of my weakest points with Veigar. My other biggest weakness, as dumb as this sounds, is that I sometimes mismanage spell-queuing or comparative ranges and fail to actually get my DFG to fire. ("Wait, why isn't she—ohhh. DFG didn't go off.") In contrast, I love Ezreal-Q-style skillshots and really enjoy Cho's Rupture for its psychological and timing aspects. In theory, I should LOVE these changes. But if the idea was to power-transfer the possibility of an edge-stun elsewhere, I'm just not seeing where that lost power went to.

Malicious Metal16 votes

{quoted}

All I can say is this is very well thought out and very well worded.

But, good luck telling other people that. I've noticed that most people who are mad at Veigar and crying about his E having no counter play are people who play Ahri, Akali and Katarina mid.

They can't have their precious mobile slaughterhouses be countered in the least.

It's the same with Morde actually. He crushes assassins in lane and therefore prevents flashy plays. That's his job, being a walking fortress that still can't be ignored due to having damage. As compensation he's really slow and has no CC

Veigar is also a great example of drawbacks and perks. He got a great stun and splendid burst but no damn mobility and a stern look can kill him.

Meanwhile pro play is being dominated by champions that have high damage, high mobility and often even great CC. There is NO trade off there.

Gosh. I just can't get over the fact that riot's compensation for Veigar and Morde is essentially nerfing them.

Yoella13 votes

This was amazing and completely true. +1

If his burst takes you to 5% health, you can beat him to death with his own hat.

Especially that.

Goosetard12 votes

+1. I echo your sentiment that counterplay is not limited to abusing mobility, but intelligent decision making. Itemization is an easy opportunity to do so. item 3001 item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3157 item 3111 item 3140 item 3102 If none of those can fit on your champion, I'm really not sure who you're playing.

None of those items are hard counters to veigar. They aren't supposed to be. But having them and using them intelligently takes playing against a veigar from a binary 100-0 slugfest with teamfights that hinge on his missing a stun to a nuanced battle of strategy and mechanics, as league should be.

CupcakeTrap7 votes

Absolutely. I think it's wrong to malign itemization as "bad counterplay". I like how League has a bit of a "boxing-chess" aspect to it, in that strategy occurs not only in split-second clicks but also in longer-term decisions about items and where you want to be on the map at any given time.

Bad item counterplay would be a cheap item that nullifies Veigar. That would turn it into a "he's either OP or trash depending on if the opponent knows this One Weird Trick™ to stop him."

Actually, your post inspired me to add another item to my list, which actually usually is on my list of advice when (e.g.) the enemy team has Veigar and I'm giving my teammates suggestions. When I play Veigar, I don't really look at my targets' AP as I assess whom to target: I look at their MR. Buying a negatron cloak makes Veigar very, very sad. I think that's okay, because it represents you investing a serious chunk of gold to block off his 100-0 potential. That's a tactical decision: "I can go double-or-nothing by building glass cannon and staying at 30 MR, and either carry ultra-hard or be annihilated, or I can hedge my risks and spend some gold on defense." One of the most classic strategic decisions is between high-risk, high-reward and more moderate risk/reward combinations. It's a larger-timescale version of, e.g., deciding whether or not to tower-dive or go for dragon.

Count Tobi11 votes

Let's list Veigar's counterplays (My list)

None

because he is simply a beast of a man, and none are able to counterplay a man with such large testicles of doom.

Dehorn9 votes

veigar was always a pubstomber. he was always good against people that didnt want to counter him. any carry could buy qss or ga or banshees 3rd or 4th item and be fine. support could pick morg or zil and any support could buy mikaels. bad player refused to do this and would cry when they get blown up.

to bad players "counter play" is basically "i should be able to build the same thing and play the same way every game" and if they cant, welp gotta nerf it cause theres no counter play...

Nucleophilic atk4 votes

This. It has been the reason behind so many nerfs and I don't understand why riot doesn't stop listening to them.

TheI3igDaddy8 votes

I think everything you wrote on how to counter Veigar is completely true. People should stop thinking he's this incredibly ridiculous champion.

Veigar's supposed to be the counter to squishy AP champions, so if you pick one and wonder why the hell his ult is dealing upwards of 75% of your health alone, you're quite retarded.

Squarefighter4 votes

So what if I'm first pick. Let's say I pick Viktor. Then the enemy picks veigar, who counters squishy AP champs. Is it my fault for picking an AP champ while Veigar wasn't banned?

TheI3igDaddy9 votes

Uh, yes? Mid and top are the worst lanes to first-pick with; you'll get countered really easily, ESPECIALLY if the champion is generally known for only one role (AKA Viktor is 95% mid, Nasus would be 95% top, etc).

If you're first pick and you really want to play Viktor, ask your fourth or fifth pick if they can swap champs with you. Anyone that can play more than one role effectively works best for first picks, since the opponent won't automatically know where they're going.

AbodyHUN6663 votes

But still hard counters is something Riot is trying to stay away from now, since it's not a very good game design to have a player feel worthless from the champ select. The enemy ap ratio feels forced to me also. None of his kit support him countering mages, why does he need to be forced to do so then? Getting rid of that completely would allow us to put more power in other parts of his kit.

Squarefighter3 votes

Sorry, looking at my comment I now realize I wasn't clear. What I meant was picking mid while the enemy mid is still up for grabs. No matter what, one team will have to do that every game.

DrCyanide4 votes

And regardless of if they pick Veigar specifically, the enemy mid will try and counter pick you. It could be an Assassin like LeBlanc or a long range champion like Xerath, but you can't expect your opponent not to counterpick you.

Take Cleanse if you need to, popping it and Zhonyas as soon as you see that big ult flying at you. Congratulations, you survived Veigar's whole combo and he won't have it back for another 90 seconds or so. If Cleanse hurts you too much you could buy a QSS for the active (also 90 seconds) and the MR.

Reazale4 votes

No , and it shouldnt be. But Viktor can and will most likely bully Veigar out of lane , and if u land a stun (which is a little harder for ya) he will probably die plus Viktor can poke well with his E and Veigar is weak against lond ranged stuff. U have the advantage the first half of the game, if u dont take it its not Veigars fault.

But still , i find it retarded that they did that to the stun but left the .8 enemy ap ratio on his ult , thats something i dont understand.

Wheatloaf7 votes

If you're worried about Veigar no longer playing like a sociopathic mastermind, I can tell you right now that you have nothing to worry about. I main Vel'Koz, another champion whose play style is heavily reminiscent of his character, I dabble in some Veigar here and there (1k AP is always a number I find satisfying to see, on top of him being the first champion I ever bought in this game), and I happened to have an active PBE account when these changes went up. Let's go through a few elements of what I perceived as his "new" play style:

  • With his Q changes and E range increase, Veigar's safety range when not going in for his Ultimate skyrocketed. He can now dance around just out of range of even a Vi and taunt the enemy front line with shiny orbs and purple meteorites. That is, unless they want to fall for the taunt, engage through the stun, and arrive at your gleefully furry face a good 1-2 seconds before their damage dealers.

  • The E delay actually forced me to realize how ridiculously powerful his cage really is. Now that he can't just walk up to someone, immobilize them, and drop them, I was forced to use the skill in some creative ways. I found myself not even putting his E and W on top of each other half the time, just to make full use of their combined threat zones. You can put your would-be divers through some serious work to get to you (even if they have blinks, though anyone who plays Veigar would much prefer to only have to deal with dashes), and you have the tools at your disposal to make sure they won't be proud of themselves for long.

  • The Q double-hit. This is the greatest thing to happen to Veigar EVER. Even if half the other changes are nerfs, this one specific change has to make up for something. Once you hit your Deathcap, you start ripping through minion waves like nothing, and AP begins flooding into your being like Kalista's dashes into whatever gland makes hatred. Not to mention you can hit 2 actual champions at once, too! Veigar can actually contribute meaningful damage beyond his initial burst! Actually, I often found myself just tossing my Ult at someone trying to leave the fight at low hp, rather than actually obliterating someone with it.

TL;DR: Veigar's just going to be playing with his food in more tangible a manner with these changes.

It's late, I'm tired, tell me if I made any sense with all this. I'll clarify anything if someone just asks. Just don't call me short.

CupcakeTrap3 votes

Well, that's good to hear. As I wrote in the OP, I think the biggest wildcard here is the Q change. I acknowledge that I don't really know how that might play out; it's likely to have cascading effects that start getting unpredictable as they propagate outwards.

That said, I remain skeptical about the change to his E. I hate having to hit people with the edge too. However, I really have a hard time imagining how this wouldn't be a crushing nerf, now that he has no way to stop someone in their tracks. I'm analogizing to all the times I miss my stun on live: generally, it means I'm toast. Seriously, a good half of the times that I die, when I look back at what happened, the answer is, "well, you missed your stun, moron, so they killed you." This goes double in 1v1 situations.

Believe me, I HATE landing his stun with the edge, and it's probably my biggest weakness with him. If these changes really aren't massive nerfs, then I'll be delighted; my friends will stop trash-talking me for missing my stun. But I'm still not a believer.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

You don't need MR. Just get Banshee's and Merc Treads, and that's enough to make him cry.

Get MR for early game if you think his Q hurts a little too much in lane. Otherwise, there's no point in building plain ol' MR, it's like using a bulletproof vest against a tank.

Leblancs Boob4 votes

Its very easy to beat a Veigar in lane. The problem is that he punishes you for it. You simply can't press your lead on him because if you even think about buying that needlessly on your first back it makes it even easier for him to delete you, and it forces you to rush MR the more ahead you are.

Is he in a weak state right now? I would say yes. But his kit is in desperate need of a rework. The fact that he can just walk in your general direction and delete you off stun > point-and-click is a huge problem.

Retillin9 votes

You are not wrong. And his "point and click" delete does suck to plays vs. But if you are immobile mage let's say, and Zed hits 6 first he can do the same thing.

It's the double speak on the issue that I think really upsets the boards.

Squarefighter1 votes

Except with Zed, you can at least flash away. With Zed you can run. Now I'm not saying Zed isn't frustrating to lane against, but at least you can do SOMETHING, whereas Veigar just kills you and that's the end.

Reazale8 votes

U are more likely to escape from Veigar than Zed.

NoMonku4 votes

Personally I don't like his E because it basically has the power of an ultimate, but isn't an ultimate. He can throw it out every 16s(not accounting for CD) at max level. A good veigar will ALWAYS be able to land his stun, meaning that if you don't have a QSS, cleanse or cleanselike ability(GP Orange, Ali ult) then you are "caught" and will die. He also has two point and click nukes with his Q and R, meaning you can't actually "dodge" them unless you have Zhonya's or it goes into a Windwall/Unbreakable. The only reason I feel he doesn't actually see competitive play is because his mana costs are HORRIBLE.

Champion Skin7 votes

I believe his biggest downfalls in competitive is that as a support his E has a rather large window of opportunity where Veigar provides almost nothing

And in mid his combination of medium/short range combined with no mobility and early weakness means that there simply is better picks most of the time

Dezell4 votes

I love Veigar, not really sure if I'd call myself a Veigar main, but this change, and some of the reactions to it, really confuse me.

"Oh good, they're nerfing the no-counterplay stun!" No counterplay? Really? It already has a cast time, for one, and it's an aoe skillshot. It can absolutely be dodged. If you see Live Veigar start to waddle towards you, you know he's going for a stun. Move proactively, especially towards him. If he misses, YOU JUST KILLED HIM.

I also want to say that people tout QSS/Banshee's as item counters more than they should. You want to beat Veigar in lane, and you know what always makes me cry as Veigar in lane? Abyssal Scepter. I can't capitalize on that. Unless you're just stupid, abyssal makes it impossible for me to whittle you down enough to kill you. The combination of MR with AP, and the MR reduction, mean that unless I get jungler help (which works both ways) I just lost lane.

Veigar has counterplay. I honestly feel like the League community has had 'counterplay' spoonfed to them so much that they can't handle proactive play, and can only understand reactive "oh there's the ring, I'm supposed to dash out of that while it takes 10 years to activate"

Crushed lil kid4 votes

.75 seconds makes his event horizon impossible to land because it only affects things that attempt to run through it so showing players where its going to land and giving it such a massive delay makes it impossible to land. champs will literally just side step by knowing where it will be and having .75 seconds to react and now i have 12 seconds of absolutely no cc.

Rinky Dinky3 votes

I feel like people ignore that all of his cooldowns and mana costs were lowered.

He won't be running out of mana anytime soon with his passive anymore.

Relish7 votes

They're ignoring these things because they don't counter act the nerfs, the delay on e makes w useless in your combo, his ult was nerfed hard and nothing was given to compensate for it. People are upset because champs that take a ton of skill to play are being made useless due to mobility creep.

Rinky Dinky4 votes

Actually they do...

People ignored the changes to ahri's kit, and only focused on the charm nerf.

Guess what happened?...

Reazale5 votes

I bet it was the mana buff that made her OP, nothing to do with being a mobile mage that got more mobility or all the buffs to her reliavility :D (more forgiving use of her ult , faster W firing , more dmg on her W)

Wînter Fox3 votes

Someone explain to me how:

for Veigar "There's counterplay! Just buy item 3139 "

is any different than...

for Zed "There's counterplay! Just buy item 3157 "

Azrael0058 votes

{quoted}

Someone explain to me how:

for Veigar "There's counterplay! Just buy item 3139 "

is any different than...

for Zed "There's counterplay! Just buy item 3157 "

Because zed has a safety if someone counterplays. Veigar uses his zhonyas zeds still waiting to kill him. Furthermore from his first shadow jump to his ults range can be absolutely ridiculous. If he misses it doesnt matter because his first shadow takes him to safety almost guaranteed if he plays it safe and you still either die or are forced out of the fight. Furthermore all his important stuffis back up withing 4-8 seconds in a team fight. Hitting 2-4 playes with his e basically resets living shadow when combined with the 20% cd hes getting from item 3142 item 3071

CupcakeTrap7 votes

{quoted}

Someone explain to me how:

for Veigar "There's counterplay! Just buy item 3139 "

is any different than...

for Zed "There's counterplay! Just buy item 3157 "

Itemization is part of the game. Situational, adaptive itemization is a form of counterplay. It is an inherently limited form of counterplay, but it is counterplay.

Buying Zhonya's is a form of counterplay to Zed, and buying Mercurial Scimitar is a form of counterplay to Veigar. Either option might be a mistake in particular games; part of the game of itemization is deciding how much to divert your goldstream to neutralize an enemy advantage. If I play Veigar, and everyone on the enemy team stacks crazy MR because they're scared of me, then even if I can't burst any of them I've arguably scored an indirect victory by driving them to overcommit on items.

Itemization is inherently limited as a form of counterplay in that it's problematic for itemization to be the only counterplay to a Champion. That might be the case with Zed. It's definitely not the case with Veigar.

Narasimha2 votes

Just to jump in, you're slightly off here mate.

Itemization is important, but it is NOT counterplay. It is counterbuilding. The very definition of counterplay lies in its name. Literally "What play can I make to counter the opponent?" Counterplay is limited to actions you can make. Likewise, counterbuilding is simply "What can I build to counter the enemy?" and counterpicking is "Who can I pick to counter the enemy?"

CupcakeTrap4 votes

{quoted}

Just to jump in, you're slightly off here mate.

Itemization is important, but it is NOT counterplay. It is counterbuilding. The very definition of counterplay lies in its name. Literally "What play can I make to counter the opponent?" Counterplay is limited to actions you can make.

I appreciate that there are separate terms for different moves one can make against an opponent: counterplaying, counterpicking, counterbuilding, and so on. If someone wants to distinguish counterbuilding from counterplay, I have no problem with that.

The relevant sense of "counterplay" I'm using here is, well, "actions you can make" against an opponent. I consider adapting one's build an action one can take against an opponent.

I'm not arguing the technicalities of terminology; I'm arguing against the idea that clicking dash buttons really fast is an important part of the game but building craftily is not. As I wrote above, I think that a combination of "fast" and "slow" decisionmaking is part of what gives LoL its appeal.

No Fun Police6 votes

You play the game since you press "Play" in client. It includes champion select, it includes shop, mechanics, game knowledge, map awarness and much more. So counterplay may be in either of those sections. If enemy team picks Rammus and you get Corki ADC, Fiddlesticks jungle, Lissandra top and Ahri mid, it's counterplay to Rammus. If you can execute perfect Zed combo and avoid both Amumu ult and Veigar stun, it's mechanics-based counterplay and it's equal to picking Xerath or getting Mercs+QSS against those champions. Different skill, different area of the game, same result.

GuiltyGecko3 votes

While my opinion will be unpopular in a pro-Veigar thread, I will throw my hat in and say That currently his counterplay is on the low side. While his stun is indeed a skill-shot, good Veigar players will usually just insta drop the wall on you. "Hope Veigar is bad" isn't counterplay. I don't want to say that Veigar has no counterplay, because he does, I just think that it's not as healthy as it could be. I think most of us can agree that stun/silence into being 100-0 isn't fun. It's why LeBlanc, Talon, and Kassadin got their silences taken away. I am not saying that there aren't other champions on the roster that aren't similar. I think those other champs that you could list (I.E Zed) also need some work.

I think people need to ask WHY they want Veigar's insta stun. Once we figure out the why, perhaps we can give him healthier tools/buffs to accomplish those goals. For example, people want to be able to reliably land their combos. If Veigar's E is given a delay, that's harder. Also, people want a tool to be able to escape from threats. Again, a delay on his stun wall makes that harder; however, lets say we continue with the E change. I will agree that is a nerf, but it adds a healthy amount of counterplay as the opponent react. I agree we can't just LEAVE Veigar in his live state though. So, let me list some weaknesses of Veigar on live:

  • 9th Lowest lvl 1 Health ingame (Squishy Early)
  • No mobility
  • Archaic Mana cost
  • No as good against AD champions
  • Passive to compensate for mana cost

So, if we keep the Veigar E change, what can we do to help him out? Well it would help if the delay on dark matter was shorter. It would be easier to land, and kind of be like "shooting fish in a barrel." Or you could make the AoE a little bigger so it's harder to dodge. Perhaps it could be a two-stage CC like Soraka's E. Not sure I agree with Riot's change to Q, so I am not sure what could be done about that. Also, Veigar's mana cost could be reduced across the board so he can get a new passive. This new passive could help him out with his mobility issue. Maybe a new passive could grant him a shield when his health dropped below a certain hp based on his AP, or maybe he gets a phage like speed boost when he kills a unit. I don't know, it could be anything and it would be better than his current passive.

Overall, I think that we should be thinking of solutions for Veigar given that his E is going to change. What other healthy buffs could be given to compensate for the E change, instead of just allowing him to have it back.

CupcakeTrap3 votes

Overall, I think that we should be thinking of solutions for Veigar given that his E is going to change.

Don't get me wrong: I don't like the edge-hitting aspect of his stun. I think it's a pain. However, right now he relies very heavily on the ability to insta-stun people. I would go so far as to argue that the removal of the insta-stun is roughly equivalent to the removal of DFG. I'm not convinced he's been buffed in a way that's comparable to the magnitude of either one of those nerfs, and I'm virtually certain he hasn't been buffed adequately to compensate for both.

The wildcard is, of course, his Q. I just don't know how such a different Q might play out in lane. I have a hard time conceiving of how it would compensate for those nerfs, however.

2pudge1cup3 votes

Very good post.

Unfortunately LoL hasn't really been about strategy for quite some time now and is all about the FPS reflex twitch type gaming. That's what Riot cares about.

Makes it even sadder that there is half of NA with a significant disadvantage when it comes to this.

Icy Auron3 votes

This isn't even specific to Veigar. I'm sick of people acting like if you can't 100-0 someone with a single round of spells, it isn't worth dealing damage. That's an insane expectation to have, and is bad for the entire game. Like you said, if someone builds no defense, of course they'll die in one burst, but if you have a brain, you don't build complete glass, and you can actually survive if the wind blows too hard.

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